LeftWinger

My God....No one is saying trade Pav or Z just for the hell of it. But Holland has two directions to go, either spend the cap in the next three years and win another Cup with these two guys by acquiring (and outbidding other teams) the key players (via UFA or trade) in order to win now, before Pav retires and Z is a shriveled old man playing the last few years of his contract. -OR- Go full youth and BUILD a core that is going to win 4-6 Cups in the next 20 years. Unfortunately he is choosing to sit and stay stagnant year after year, lowballing UFA's, refusing to better his team by trading a kid or two or even taking away from his current roster (Helm, Smith, Franzen, et al.) and just barely making the playoffs and letting Pav and Z sit and rot for the remainder of their All Star careers without even remote chance to win the Cup. My point wasn't that we need to trade them, my point was, if you are not going to trade a kid away (especially after getting burned with Jarnkrok) then instead of letting these guys rot, make a choice, either make those deals or UFA offers to bring a Cup in the next 3 years or make a bold move to trade away one of them and get some REAL youth and core experience in a full rebuild. I am not suggesting trading them, I am all for keeping them and acquiring the pieces to win a Cup. But Holland just seems set on not winning within the next 5-7 years along with wasting away your Al-Star players by signing filler scrub players (ie. Gustavsson, Cleary, Quincey, Alfredsson, undrafted projects...) The point was either win now, or build a core and win the next 20 years. You cannot have it both ways, because the useless filler scrubs are taking valuable roster spots away. If he wants to keep his top players and build a future on the tails of their careers, that is fine, but he cannot be signing scrub fill ins. He should be bringing the kids up NOW. Even more so than the ones that are here. But if he wants to win now, he needs to make hard decision deals and trade away some assets and kids to win NOW, before its too late for his stars. So, the point was, if he is going to waste away the last few years of his stars and not trade away anymore kids, then he could just go FULL rebuild mode and deal away his star(s) and bring in some serious return to get ahead of the rebuild process. Just a question, and a serious one at that. If Shea Weber or Evgeni Malkin or Steven Stampkos were on the table and the asking price was Zetterberg, would you scoff at it or give it a serious thought? I have no issue keeping Z, obviously, but Holland has no intention of making the moves needed to win another Cup while Pav is still here and Z is still a top 10 player, nor is he providing the roster spots to promote his kids to build a core while Pav and Z are still here...he is afraid to go in either direction, so he kicks tires...

Here's an idea...let's trade Tatar and Smith in a package and then this debate wouldn't matter!

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Mantha (if he wins it, we don't have a legit top 6, so it's open to take!) Nyquist - Weiss - Alfredsson (I know this is Frazen's spot, but if Alfie re-signs, I prefer him here.) ...dang, we got too many forwards...what do we do with Miller/Abby/Glendening/Andersson/Helm? Not to mention Callahan and Ferraro...sheesh, no wonder we weren't really looking at UFA forward.

Kip, I wasn't saying anything, I was just asking which one could be lived without. They both have potential to be 20-30 goal getters. I most definitely trade one of those two before I trade Mantha or Sheahan. I think Tatar would be the more sought after one by teams and he should garner a larger return. I also agree that my trade piece scenario is way over payment for Myers. I think Myers could be had for Helm and a 1st and throw Kindl in there just to make room on the roster. If one of them had to be traded, Jurco or Tatar...I just don't know which one I would be comfortable in letting go...guess it all depends on the return.

Tatar or Jurco..man which one could you live without? Either way, the main cog in any trade should be Helm. Let's just say they traded Tatar.... Helm, Tatar, 1st rounder and maybe Almqvist's rights would bring in pretty good defenseman...for most teams. But since teams are encouraged to, and allowed to by Buttman and his cronies, to rape Detroit, that wouldn't be enough for the rights to Mike Commodore.

I don't have an account, but Flashy's is always the best IMO. Question though about the other guy. I appreciate all the history and time put into his/hers, but teams play each other more than once a year, so if he makes 4 GDT's between Philly and Rags, are each one of them filled with pages of DIFFERENT information? Because other than the last game played against each other, the history remains the same and history does not change... If I am just seeing 4 GDT's with the same info on it except for the most recent game played, then I think it may become a bit boring... plus, that is WAY too much reading...nice history and well written and researched, but man, that is a ton.

as the days go on, it is apparent that there will be no signings or trades made...unless you count our own UFA/RFA's that are there...I know teams attempt to rape Detroit in trades, but there are still outside UFA's out there that will help make this team better, both at the forward and defense position. #firekenholland RICH, I agree. I would hate to see Dats or Z traded, but if #firekenholland isn't going to build a Staley Cup team that will win at least once in the next 3 years, then go for an entire rebuild. Pav and Z could bring you a windfall of young core players or high, HIGH draft picks....right now, this team will not even sniff the Cup and barely make the playoffs the next 3 years...

if he makes the team, its because he deserves to be here. He isn't gonna make the team to be in the bottom 6, so he isn't going to be playing 10-12 minutes a game. If he makes the team it will mean playing 25+ mins. If he doesn't show good enough to make the top 4 minute getters, then he should and will go to GR. If he earns it, he should start and stay here...even if he goes into a slump. All players slump and have fight through it. if you ask me, its looking like its his spot to lose. From all indications he us going to get the longest look if any rookie in years! I like these a top 6, if he makes it: Z - Pav - Mantha Nyquist - Weiss - Franzen (Alfie if he signs)

why the heck is Morris still unsigned? Is he just waiting to re-sign in Arizona? Come on, if we are D hunting, lets start with him!

never say never.....Chris Chelios for Anders Eriksson.

he will not trade for anyone. Considering he won't part with kids, or Helm, Franzen, Smith or Kindl...He talks a big game and lets everyone down... Heck Leisure Suit Larry has made better moves than #firekenholland...and has scored!

I have no doubt Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm & Franzen will all be injured this season. Just hopefully not at the same time...again.

no Alfredsson...i'd rather see Mantha.

I'd trade Helm as that young center to Edmonton before Sheahan. no to trading Sheahan, Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar...i am sure Helm would be fine as compensation for any of those D mentioned. As the main ingredient in a package that is.

well something is wrong. I agree with some of you, why is Washington more attractive than Detroit? Last I read (not turning this into a city debate, but real quick) Washington had a higher crime and murder rate than Detroit, as do a lot of cities per capita. We do have dynamic players to play with. Washington has Ovi, we have Pav. We have THE best ownership in the NHL. It all boils down to players don't want to play for Babcock and #firekenholland tries to skimp on the money when it comes to outside UFA's. Then he overpays his own guys just to keep them. Even with Niskanen, his offer was about $2M less than Washington's. He always tries to skimp on that extra bit, which recently has become the difference and players know it and usually don't even consider his offers...I am surprised that Ryan Suter ever verbally agreed to play here. Taking away his family in Minny, in the end he still got more $$$ and term in Minny over what Holland offered. It starts with Babcock and ends with #firekenholland. Players don't want to play here for those reasons...

"...we didn't like the terms" -or- "...it just wasn't a hockey move..." there are too many of them!

My favorite isn't listed: "Today, I resign as General Manager of The Detroit Red Wings. I also plan on not pursuing another job within the organization. Thank you fans, thank you Dan Cleary. Thank you Firestone, BF Goodrich and Dick Cepek..."

Harold! Good point...I hate the #kfq signing, but if Kindl gets dealt, we are at least going to get someone new that HAS to be better than Kindl. Maybe #firekenholland signs Gleason or Morris and lets everyone duke it out at training camp for the spots, then tries (and fails) to trade the losers and ends up just waiving them... If we get stuck with #kfq and dump Kindl, I will feel a little less hatred, but all in all, I am hugely disappointed in our off season thus far...not including the draft that is. I am still majorly mad at #firekenholland for turning Detroit into a place nobody puts on their list anymore for a destination. His years of "no one makes more than Lidstrom" and "you should be expected to sign here for less because we are Detroit..." and turned the new generation of player away from Detroit. You got to pay and you got to show you have to balls to make the moves to win. Maybe 5 years from now, our new "core" will be all-stars just like the 90's "core" and we will once again, be a sought after organization to play for.

I like our team....lol, I know how that sounds. I said in another thread,I love our kids and all of the top25 prospects listed on the other red wings site. I love the last few years of drafting. I just wanted to have a couple of higher end UFA's to throw in the mix. I am tired of Franzen, but I can live with his 20-25 goals a year. I cant stand Kindl or Quincey and think that they wouldn't be missed if replaced by kids or if somehow #firekenholland would convince hometown boy Tim Gleason to come here along with Derek Morris... I can't stand #firekenholland anymore. I hate #KFQ and will really be upset if he re-signs cleary. I think there are far better d-men still out there that would have taken 2 yrs. $4.25M to come here. He didn't have to re-sign #KFQ. I am good with giving Mantha a spot to lose this fall. And I want to see Kindl dealt and another 1 or 2 D-Men signed... I think Diesel is gonna get about $3.5M now that #KFQ is at $4.25M...actually Diesel is much better and deserves more, but that would be a great raise for him either way...

Screw it...I say, I do like our kids and all 25 of our top prospects...along with the last few years of drafting...I just hate #KFQ so much! I hate Kindl... I think I hate them more than Franzen...maybe. I say, pull that belt to 10 more notches tight and lets do this rebuild! I do feel bad for Pav though...

Freshy....its obvious that Jim Nill was the brains of this operation...

I just cannot believe that even with the remaining D men out there, that #KFQ was the choice for Holland... I cannot believe that Morris and Gleason are still unsigned and #KFQ got re-signed and a raise...

If Holland still wants to pick up 2 defensemen, Morris and Gleason are still available. Those two would make yesterdays tarded outcome a little easier to swallow... that is IF they would even sign here... We could trade Kindl and give Diesel his salary Kronwall - Smith Dekeyser - Morris Ericsson - Gleason #KFQ/Lashoff

I seriously think Nill will poach Alfie away to Dallas...they, right now have a ay better lineup. From front to back... That being said, I would sure like to have Legwand back. If we are just going to go with nobody new this year and let our current kids develop, I think a leader like Legwand would help out. Especially the overpayment #firekenholland paid for him. Not saying Alfie isn't a good leader, but like I said, I think he will go to Dallas afterall, if he is healthy that is. It would be nice to have Legwand signed up when that decision on Alfie comes down. Not that I really care too much until #firekenholland is, well, fired or resigns...

I don't think it is going to happen, as a matter of fact I am 99% sure it won't, but if we couldn't get anyone for free yesterday, he could still trade Kindl for a pick (7th or futures) and promote one of the kids full time. I know he has made Detroit the LAST place anyone wants to come to, but even with that being known now, I would have been a bit ok with going with the straight up kids and not re-signing #KFQ. BTW, if #KFQ is worth (in #firekenholland mind) $4.25M what the heck is Diesel going to get? He could become the highest paid defenseman on the team...he is leaps better than #KFQ.