LeftWinger

Something seriously has to be looked at in our training department...this is too much of a problem to be a coincidence! Now we KNOW our return from injuries will be our deadline acquisitions... I guess we are going to get to see our kids for sure now! My only question is....why the hell can we not get Bertuzzi - Sammy - Cleary to go out on LTIR?

Which is why we cannot trade "junk." This team needs an impact player. Our depth in goal, the D on the farm and our mid-higher level scorer's on the farm make Howard, Quincey and Franzen expendable and VERY replaceable. I am not going to say trade them or Holland sucks, but as mentioned no one wants our junk, so if those three were packaged for a legit #1 defender, I really don't think the lose of players would be an issue.

Yes, we are all sick of watching losses, but realize this team is the result of 20+ years of dominance. I am not sure if you are old enough to remember the Dead Wing era, but after that era is when they started building a team through the draft and trades that turned into the 90's Wings. I am sick of watching losses with Dan Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson and Johan Franzen in the lineup. I have no issues watching losses with Jurco, Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, Smith, Mrazek, et al. in the lineup. It is that core of players that are going to define the next 20 years of Red Wings hockey. I am not saying they are all going to be Hall of Famers, or even close to Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Draper, McCarty, Maltby, et al. BUT I am more than willing to ditch the dead weight and let these kids grow together, lose together and learn to win together and create that next Dynasty. I also would like to keep the playoff streak alive, but I am not all for suppressing the growth of our youth in order to play the crap vets that Holland refuses to let go by the wayside. To me, and maybe I am not in the majority here, but Cleary, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Sammy, Quincey and possibly Jimmy are all expendable. I know Q has his good nights (rarely) and Franzen seemed to have gotten a little life in him playing center again (he has since cooed WAY down) but think ab out the needs of this team. Yes a #1 scorer (even I have pined for that) but most importantly, I think we need that #1 top defenseman. Which is why it really hurt not being able to snag Suter away from his family ties. But honestly, looking at our depth in goal, on D (when it comes to #'s 3-7) and even eventual 20-30 goal scorer's, think about what could be had out there if Howard, Franzen and Quincey were offered in a package... I am not saying trade them right f'ing now, but if they are very expendable considering the return and what we have waiting in the wings...

I am never a fan of losing, but I would much rather lose with our kids, than garbage in the lineup. I cannot wait for Z and Helm to be healthy so we can sit Cleary and Bertuzzi. I know cap space us an issue, but we need to just waive Cleary and have injuries mysteriously appear for Bert and Sammy. Then when Diesel gets back, we need to rid ourselves if Q. this is a great time to be a Wings fan. With all these kids playing, it reminds me of watching the 90's Wings grow together and once they create that "core" of players, magic will happen yet again. I do believe that Mrazek is our future. I may be in the minority, but with monster playing so well, and as cheap as he may be to re-sign, Jimmy just may becoming expendable. This team needs a legit top D-Man and a package of Jimmy, Q and something else just may land that #1 guy...just saying.

whoa! Someone said this exact scenario should happen in the last GDT...kudos to you and your psychic abilities! I think we'll get more out of Eaves than Cleary, Sammy and Emmerton combined...

Ozzie was chosen over Manny to be he broadcaster. Manny is currently doing college games for FSD and he is actually pretty colorful...I think they chose Ozzie over Manny because of the history of Ozzie in goal, but that choice was a mistake. Ozzie sucks.

"He's 8'7" guys, just shoot it right at him, one is bound to get by him." - Mike Babcock during pre-shoot out talk.

...also, regarding next season, I wonder if anyone out there can get us a list of "kids" that are no longer able to move up and down to GR and back without having to go through waivers... I know Ferraro is one of those and I think Sheahan. This is very important to see what Holland does next off season at the draft and UFA time. Maybe even at this season's trade deadline. Or if any of you guru's out there can explain to me the rules, maybe I can figure it out myself. I do know that it has something to do with when they signed their first pro contract, but I am not sure on the time frame.

Ya, but would the Isle's trade to the Pens? I see the Minny angle a little more believable, maybe Vanek for Heatley...both pending UFA's... Would love Vanek on the Wings, maybe even Brad Richards for a year trial period. This off season, with the cap going up and so many teams already better than the Wings looking to tweak their roster's to put them over, I can see prices going WAY up in bidding wars. Holland may have to ditch the "We're the Red Wings" approach and start out-bidding other teams. If Minny can add another top scorer and more, hell they got $23M available to them next season, and oh BTW they STILL have Parise and Suter...sure wish we could've landed them now. Those are LONG contracts, but all of a sudden they don't look so bad...are there anymore Olsen Twins out there that are looking to play together for the next 6 years?

Weiss would have to waive his NMC/NTC to be traded anywhere, and I really don't know if he would do that for a chance to play on the Island. I would, though, throw a ton of eggs in the basket to get Vanek via UFA (if he makes it that far.) I still support Weiss, it is still early, plus he has 4 more years on his contract. If I can choke myself and suffer through a couple of years of Sammy and a total waste of a year on Cleary, I am more than willing to give Weiss more than 30 games. Once Hank and Helm are back, I would love to see Weiss center Nyquist and Tatar and see if his game can improve. Still, though, I want to give Holland this off season to try and get that #1 Right Winger for Pav, and then see if what Weiss can do without the revolving door of forwards he has been thrown with. I also still think Babcock is suppressing Weiss. It seems once you get in his dog house (Modano, Commodore, Tootoo) it's like giving birth to try and get out of it! Weiss is with us, Holland wanted him last deadline, he got him over the summer. We all know that when Holland makes his choice, he NEVER admits a mistake and makes up for it. I am not saying Weiss is a mistake yet, but we all know that Holland always (almost always) rides out the contract. I am all for giving Weiss a couple of season's...hell, I have suffered through a crap ton of Franzen, I can have patience with Weiss... But, to answer the OP question, if all parties were willing, hell yes I would trade Weiss for Vanek...

"It's Only December Guys!" ...sorry, haven't heard that one in a while!

lol, jimmy looked like a mini-mite goalie on that one...

all valid points and taken well...but my statement you quoted was me questioning someone else's statement. Turns out I missed that conversation before and I was in the wrong thinking we didn't get penalized. Then it turned into something else.

I will admit I did not know about that part of the CBA, but maybe explain it to me so that I do know, instead of being condescending and attacking me. Both of which can get you suspended... oh regarding this last post I quoted, back then I had a drinking problem, marriage problems and a couple of other things that all got turned around a couple of years down the road, but again thanks for keeping the discussion going by just attacking someone with stuff that is totally unrelated to the thread...

Oh! Ok, ya, you are right. I know nothing about Johan Franzen. So why don't you "experts" (term used loosely) educate me on Johan Franzen and tell ALL of us Franzen haters just why we are so wrong about him...because all I see from you guys is "Playoff Franzen" and "one of the best scorers in the league." I am either blind or have been watching an entire different Franzen the last 4 seasons... ...remind me, but I also seem to recall that back in the day I also "didn't know anything about" Jiri Hudler when I was against him so much and by time his contract was up, 95% of his supporters back then were against him because he turned into crap on this team. The same thing will happen to Franzen before his contract is up, and then he will be a detriment to this team, much like Cleary is now...oh BTW, back when everyone loved Cleary, I was berating him and saying how I felt he was no better than a 3rd liner and how he has no business being in the top 6 ever and I was also told I didn't know crap back then. Well, he was no better than a third liner then, he proved it when he played well in the bottom 6 and totally sucked in the top 6, but no, I didn't know anything about hockey. Just because most of us are not GM's, Coaches, Scout's, etc...doesn't mean we haven't followed the game and the players long enough to know or have gut feelings about players and can judge NHL talent. I am sure most of us have an inclining on doing just that, some of us just may be even smarter or better than some of the current GM's in the league....just maybe the ones that are just didn't take the right career path to lead them to become a GM in the NHL...doesn't mean they aren't just as smart or know less about the game of Hockey...

$71.1M? Interesting...it's nice to know there will be lots of cap room, but then again, there will be bottom dwelling teams over-paying mediocre talent and pushing "market value" through the roof... Good, lets hope some team offers Quincey $6M a year... Anyone still not mad we didn't land Suter? Sure, two years ago that contract looked like it would handcuff any team out there, but if the cap is going up to $71.1M next season, then when the NHL gets its lucrative TV deal and it goes up to $80M, Minnesota will be sitting pretty with BOTH of those contracts. I know Suter chose family and I get it, but I for one, really wish we could have got him...

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty? ...if he retires before his contract while he is still a Red Wing, yes, there is a cap penalty on us, BUT if we trade him, the other team assumes his contract thus making them responsible for a cap hit if he retires early. He is more than tradable, as a matter of fact he is about the only valuable asset we have that IS tradable. That being said, Holland seems blind when it comes to making the right choices for the current team, so I unfortunately see that he more than likely will not trade him, nor buy him out. But I maintain that in the business world that is called the NHL, trading him now or buying him out later makes the MOST business sense for the Detroit Red Wings. In 2 years, Franzen will be playing just about as good as Cleary is right now and then 99% of you guys will be screaming at his cap hit when he is only putting in 5 goals all season long. Go ahead and be excited about him now, enjoy his little hot streak, but don't be too upset when he fails to surpass the 30 goal make again, if he even gets to 20, which I am doubting he will be able to do. You want to talk about next season and making this team better, then talk about this team without Franzen, because he will be a detriment to this team and his $4M dollars and roster spot can be put to better use. and regarding Booth, I am just looking at ways to possibly jump start our $5M man that was supposed to be our answer to the 2nd line woes. Unlike most of his critics, I am not going to judge him on 20+ games. At least wait until he is a few years into his contract to pass judgment. Hell, you guys are still nursing on Franzen's teat from his 2009 season. He hasn't done crap since and nobody is calling for his head (well a few of us are.) Everyone keeps saying "when playoff Franzen returns." Blah, Blah...it's time to cut him loose. Franzen has been non-existent for 4 years and yet, he is still our savior...I don't get it.

Setting my dislike of Franzen aside, it still makes the most sense to rid ourselves of that contract. If Holland were to trade him, he'd most definitely have to include a check for a lot of that salary to the team picking him up. I mentioned David Booth before (maybe it was in the Weiss thread) but I mentioned him getting back with Weiss to possibly reunite the chemistry they had in Florida. Someone said that Booth is doing very well right, and well, neither is Weiss at the moment and putting them back together wouldn't be good at all. An example I am going to use (and this doesn't mean the same will work for Weiss, but it has a chance to work) is Mike Richards and Jeff Carter. They were gangbusters in Philly, got traded top separate teams and they were both struggling to the point that people were calling them washed up. LA takes a chance, makes the deal to reunite them, and viola! Look at what they did together in LA! May or may not work, but Weiss needs a bit a familiarity to play with. I still say Franzen will be an all-star if he gets out there with the Sedins, if Sammy can score 35 with them, Franzen can top 40 with them. And just maybe reuniting Booth and Wiess would spark something. Trade Franzen and some cash (to cover part of his contract) to Vancouver for Booth, its a win-win situation for both teams... I still maintain Holland needs to address the #1 right winger spot. Not sure who that would be, but there are a couple of high end guys out there that will be UFA. Most importantly we must say Goodbye to ALL of the pending UFA's on this team, with the only exception being Alfie, if he still wants to play and ONLY if he takes a similar contract. I am very happy with Gustavsson's play this year, but he is also playing to get a starting job. He will get a raise when he signs his next contract and for us, that is too much. Mrazek is ready to be Jimmy's back-up and successor in the future and is a very minimal cap hit. GR will continue on with Coreau and Paterson as their tandem. Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, and Quincey must go. If I could drop Q and Cleary today, I would. Zetterberg - Datsyuk - #1 Right Winger Alfredsson - Weiss - Booth Nyquist - Helm - Tatar Miller - Andersson - Abdelkader Sheahen/Ferraro Kronwall - Ericsson DeKeyser - Smith Kindl - Lashoff Ouellet Howard Mrazek That roster is much improved over the current one...

Franzen will be the one bought out. Book it.

because babcock is a prick. he started out with Cleary on his 2nd line...i do believe Sammy was up there a bit too. I hear ya, but he needs to be given a chance to play with someone who cares to be here. But Babcock just buries players he doesn't like adn contnues to put broke down guys in the top 6...

hasn't score 30 in years. Perennial is far fetched. Make perfect sense to give him up, it wouldn't be for nothing it would be for that valuable roster position, because in 4 years he will be the cause of us losing a "kid" to waivers...if not less than 4 years. and to go back to Babcock not holding grudges, just read the Commodore thread and remember in 2008 when Fedorov was on his way back to Detroit? Well t is rumored that Babcock is the guy who was against it because of his inability to handle Sergei in Anaheim... Babcock is the best at holding Grudges, just ask Chris Osgood.

there is a great return on your investment... waste a 1st round pick to get him, re-sign him when he was an RFA knowing that if someone else signed him you could have had at least a 3rd rounder, now the best we can get in return is a conditional pick...Holland s*** the bed on that trade. I know I was ok with it initially, but soured soon after and have hated him since before he re-signed...Holland's worst trade ever... ...if I can't trade him, I waive Q tonight along with Cleary. too much money and taking up roster spots that could be given to a youngster who cares to be on this team...

Babs doesn't hold grudges? Ya...ok. Trust me, by Octoboer 2014 Franzen will be a Vancouver Canuck either by trade or buyout and UFA signing. When it's game 7 in the third period, Babcock will have Dats and Z on the ice with Dan Cleary, because he is retarded. Franzen didn't even have a mediocre playoff run the last 3 years, let alone anywhere near unbelievable run....10 points total in 27 games and a -9, that is garbage, HOT garbage

Weiss has a NMC and a NTC, so he won't be moved. He will come around. Look at who he was playing with, frickin Cleary and Sammy. I agree, now that the big guys are out, he needs to take advantage of this opportunity. He will be fine. He needs to find some chemistry with players that can make him better (not worse like Cleary and Sammy do.)

You replace him with a 40-50 goal scorer. The ONLY logical thing is to buyout Franzen. It doesn't matter if he scores 25 goals. In the end, this is a business and it will be a business decision. Do you think Holland really wanted to buyout McCarty back in the day? Of course not, but it was a business decision. The only way he doesn't et bought out is if he gets traded. Right now, the better he plays the more his trade value rises. Not many teams would be willing to take him on for 6 more years, but if Ilitch writes a check for Franzen to take with him to his new team, it would ease the pain of the team picking him up. Franzen at 35+ is just as useless as Cleary is right now. Remember when Cleary was a valuable asset to this team? Wasn't it just a couple of years ago? Now we ALL agree Cleary is horrible and is taking up a valuable roster spot where one of our kids could be. NHL teams are being given a one time out next off season, to wipe a cap hit off the books, not that his cap hit is that big, but he will not be worth $1.9M in a couple of seasons and then everyone will be screaming for him to be traded or retire... Franzen is gone before the 2014-15 season opens up next october... Alfie at 41 is tons better than Franzen is right now. If the decision is to made to re-sign Alfie, then Franzen will for sure be gone.