Dabura

One more point I want to make about Duchene... 55-60 points is nothing to sneeze at. Consider: Kyle Turris is the Senators' 1C. This season, Turris put up 55 points in 78 games. Derek Stepan is the Rangers' 1C. This season, Stepan put up 55 points in 81 games. Ryan Johansen is the Predators' 1C. This season, Johansen put up 61 points in 82 games. Mikko Koivu is the Wild's 1C. This season, Koivu put up 58 points in 80 games. Eric Staal was arguably the Wild's 1C this season. Staal put up 65 points in 82 games. Sean Monahan is the Flames' 1C. This season, Monahan put up 58 points in 82 games. Claude Giroux is the Flyers' 1C. This season, Giroux put up 58 points in 82 games. Alexander Wennberg is the Blue Jackets' 1C. This season, Wennberg put up 59 points in 80 games. Henrik Zetterberg is our best player. This season, Zetterberg put up 68 points in 82 games. Granted, you could argue that some or most of these players do what they do in a tougher role than the one Duchene is accustomed to. But one could also argue that playing for the Avalanche has held Duchene back. What I'm saying is Duchene is really good and quite possibly capable of being a legitimate 1C on a playoff team. In the past ten years or so, the Wings' scouting-drafting-development machinery has produced approximately one comparable centerman in Valtteri Filppula, and I think Duchene is better than Filppula ever was. The jury is out on Larkin and Athanasiou.

I don't disagree. I just think it would be foolish of them to limit their options to defensemen.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Fair enough. But I think you know what I mean. "We'd love to add a real good centerman/defenseman, but those players are real hard to come by. There's no hockey store. You have to draft and develop, that's the surest path to success in the cap era." I don't mean to single out Holland, because every GM says this kind of thing. Because it's largely true. "And yet you feel we should throw valuable assets at Matt Duchene." I don't necessarily feel we should, but, in theory, I'd probably be ok with it. Why? Because Zetterberg is old, Nielsen is old, Larkin is unproven, Athanasiou is probably a career winger, and we don't have any high-end center prospects. We might draft a high-end C prospect with the #9 pick and that player might end up being better than Duchene, or we might draft a high-end D prospect with the #9 pick and that player might end up becoming a legit #1 defenseman. Or the player we draft with that pick could be a bust. Duchene is, at least, a known. At worst, he's a very good 2C. At best, he could become a legitimate 1C. While the Wings haven't been a model of excellence over the past few years, the Avs have been a drunken mess over the past few years, and I do wonder if that hasn't held Duchene back. Also, while the Wings remain good at producing NHL talent, we've produced few truly high-end NHLers over the past decade. Granted, that could be because of our draft positions. But I'm starting to wonder if there isn't more to it than just the lack of top-ten picks. Point being, I don't exactly have the utmost confidence in our drafting and development at this point in time. I don't feel Duchene is hugely superior to Tatar or Nyquist, but I do feel he's the best of the three. And, crucially, he's a centerman. His cap hit is big, but if we're losing a roster player in the expansion draft and moving Tatar/Nyquist out and maybe making a couple minor housekeeping moves, it wouldn't necessarily be a problem. He only has two years remaning on his contract, so it's not like we'd be chaining ourselves to an albatross. If Holland wants to actively try to avoid a long rebuild, I say make a pitch for Duchene and/or [your high-end trade target(s) of choice]. I mean, again, I don't believe we should be making moves just for the sake of making moves. But if there are high-end players on the market and we think they could help our cause, we should seriously explore those options and, perhaps, be prepared to take a calculated risk. I have no problem with the notion that we should use Tatar/Nyquist to upgrade our defense, but, personally, I'm just as concerned about our center situation as I am about our D situation. Zetterberg held our team together this season. That's not sustainable.

I hear ya. That package might not be enough to get it done, but I think it gets us within striking distance. Unless the Avs are hellbent on getting a defenseman (if only for the sake of getting a defenseman and being able to say, "Look! We got a defenseman! Now we're cooking with gas! #ThePlan"), I think 9th overall + Tatar + Saarijarvi would be enough to get it done. Would I pay that price? I'd seriously consider it. It's probably an "overpayment," but I'm that high on Duchene and I'm that concerned about what our center depth chart is going to look like in a couple of years. We're always being told that players like Duchene "just aren't available." Well, Duchene's available, and Bob McKenzie says he WILL be traded this summer. To which Helene St. James would say, "They want a high-end defenseman. We don't have one of those. Nothing we can do. Vote Holland-Martin 2020." To which I would say every team wants to acquire That Defenseman at a reasonable price and no one wants to sell That Defenseman for a reasonable price. Point being, I suspect the Avs are being offered mostly "pretty good" defensemen and few, if any, star defensemen. When it becomes clear that he isn't getting a Roman Josi (partly because Duchene only has two years left on his current deal), Sakic will probably give all of his options careful consideration and settle for the pound-for-pound best offer. It'll probably be a defenseman, but I believe the Wings can be in the mix if they want to be in the mix and I believe they can get Duchene if they're willing to "overpay". Personally, I feel my hypothetical steep price would be worth it, but that's just my opinion. And, of course, my opinions change all the time.

The Red Wings finished the 2016-17 season with 79 points (33-36-13) and a -37 goal differential (207 - 244). That is bad. The Avalanche finished the 2016-17 season with 48 points (22-56-4) and a -112 goal differential (166 - 278). That is so impossibly bad it's actually kind of impressive. People are saying the Avs want a defenseman. And that's probably true. And they'll probably get a defenseman. But I don't believe it has to be a defenseman. I believe Sakic simply put it out there that he would, ideally, like to get a defenseman for Duchene. The Avs have serious problems that are much bigger than "Tyson Barrie and Erik Johnson are not an ideal top two" -- and now they're going to trade a 26-year-old borderline 1C in Matt Duchene. If I'm an Avs fan, I would not be happy with de Haan/Vatanen + mid/late 1st. If we offer something like 1st/2nd + Tatar/Nyquist + Ouellet/Saarijarvi and the Avs reject it because we're not offering a Sami Vatanen (who, at this point, is a third-pairing power play specialist)...they can get bent. All of this is probably moot, though. My Monopoly money's on Duchene-for-Hamonic.

I dunno, smithbro. Why not make a genuinely competitive offer? At the very least, let Sakic (and other GMs) know that you're "open to ideas" and willing to have a discussion about Duchene and/or other players of interest. I don't think the Wings and Avs are realistic trade partners at this time, and I don't want Holland to chase leads and make trades just for the sake of chasing leads and making trades. But if the goal is to avoid a long rebuild and get back to being a contender within the next four years, we should be on the lookout for potential stepping stones, i.e. players that could, realistically, move us forward in a big way.

-4 points for appropriation of Irish Culture. -9,001 points for appropriation of Indigenous Peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of North America's Culture. -777 points for no frogs.

Mike Sullivan > Mike Babcock

The Avs were a tire fire this season. I'm familiar with Duchene's numbers and I'm not denying he's established himself as a 2C. What I'm denying is that there's "no way in hell" a team would trade a top-15 pick in this draft for Duchene. Solid 2Cs don't grow on trees; at any given time, there will be at least a couple teams that are in desperate need of a Matt Duchene. (Promising though Larkin and Athanasiou are, the odds are against either one of them ever becoming a significantly better player than the one Duchene is right now.) The Hurricanes need to make the jump from bubble team to playoff team. They lack scoring depth and they've been looking for an established top-six centerman who could give their offense a shot in the arm. Currently, their top three centermen are Jordan Staal, Victor Rask, Elias Lindholm. While Duchene isn't Crosby, there's a pretty big difference between 1C-Staal / 2C-Rask / 3C-Lindholm / 4C-[some guy] and 1C-Staal / 2C-Duchene / 3C-Rask / 4C-Lindholm. Losing Nielsen hurt the Islanders this season. Adding Duchene would help plug that hole, help solidify their top six, and possibly help convince Tavares to stay in Isles Land. There are other potential fits, but I'm thinking those two make the most sense.

I think you're undervaluing Duchene and/or overvaluing a top-15 pick in this draft. Don't be surprised if the Hurricanes or Islanders trade their 1st and a defenseman for Duchene.

You're saying we should...stick a frk in him?

NOT ME! This here Not-Penguins train stops for no one and no thing. Especially not the Penguins.

Holland-Lebda 2020

Assuming no 'canes defenseman takes a quantum leap forward next season, it would surprise me if Francis actively tried to move Faulk. Legit 1D, 25 years old, $4.83M cap hit for the next three years...that's the stuff of wet dreams. The 'canes do have a wealth of very promising young defensemen, but, at the same time, an NHL team is only as deep as its top players allow it to be (IMO).

Bean, Slavin, Pesce, Fleury, Hanifin...you'd think we'd be able to land one of them for a reasonable price. I guess if there's an obstacle (assuming the Ilitch-Karmanos rivalry is no longer a thing), it'd be that the 'canes are looking for a proven top-six centerman. Also, if we're being objective, I'm not sure Slavin is a true busdriver. The 'canes under Bill Peters are a very good possession team, and that's largely because of Justin Faulk. The Wings under Jeff Blashill are a poor possession team and that's largely because we don't have a Justin Faulk. It's entirely possible a top pairing of Slavin-Green would fare about as well as DeKeyser-Green fared this season. mehhhhh. The Wings' suckage has sucked the fun out of rosterbation. This is Hell.

Josh Anderson is intriguing. I'd like to see us aggressively pursue Jaccob Slavin. I like him enough that if Ron Francis were to ask for Nyquist/Tatar/Athanasiou straight up, I'd seriously consider it.

It's safe to say he'll become a full-time Red Wing at some point next season.

Tyically, I'd agree that it'd have to be something like Larkin/Mantha + 9th, if not more. But, personally, I believe Nill isn't super-ultra-jazzed about having the third overall pick in this draft. https://www.nhl.com/stars/news/nill-open-to-trading-third-overall-pick-in-draft/c-289504248 "We know there are lots of choices at three. It's not like the top five or six are set in stone. Everyone has talked about the top two and then after that there is probably a group of ten players," Nill said. "I think it is going to come down to team's personal preference. Are you looking for a big, strong centerman? Are you looking for a scoring winger? Are you looking for a power forward? There are lots of different options there." I believe he's looking for an immediate and dramatic turnaround, hence Bishop and Hitchcock and now expressing interest in moving his first-rounder for an impact player. The balance of power in the Western Conference is shifting and, IMHO, the Stars are two or three good pieces away from being fully capable of making noise in the playoffs next season. Hell, if Bishop can be the significant upgrade in net that they so badly need him to be, that alone could make them much more competitive than they were this season. https://www.nhl.com/stars/news/jim-nill-its-going-to-be-a-quick-turnaround/c-288547590 We've got a lot of major pieces here, and we're going to get this back together. It's going to be a quick turnaround. He's probably targeting defensemen, the kind we simply don't have. Which sort of makes this whole discussion moot. However, I believe a guy like Gustav Nyquist could be quite appealing to him and Hitchcock. Of course, I'd hesitate to give up Nyquist/Tatar + [?] (+ [??]) for the third overall pick in this draft, so, for me, it's all double-moot. tl;dr If I have Jamie Benn, Tyler Seguin, John Klingberg, Ben Bishop, and Ken Hitchcock, I'm looking to win a Cup. If I'm gifted the third overall pick in a "weak" draft, I'm looking to turn it into an impact player and would absolutely consider "settling" for a player who isn't his team's crown jewel (because I already have my "Big 3" in Benn, Seguin, Klingberg). But, if I'm Ken Holland, I don't really care about the third overall pick in this "weak" draft class. So...blah.

I doubt it'd cost that much (unless, perhaps, Patrick or Hischier slides). But, yeah, it'd cost too much.

covfefe

Fact: We haven't won a Cup since Lebda left. GET REKT S***LORD!!!

My point is that it's a different situation now (and Holland will act accordingly, if he has any sense). The fact that we signed Nielsen last summer doesn't necessarily mean we're going to throw all the moneyz and all the termz at Shattenkirk. This time last year, The Streak was still a thing. Holland was going to do what he felt he needed to do to keep The Streak going and give his team at least an outside shot at winning a Cup. We can sit here and say Holland should've stood pat and said... "Datsyuk's gone and, frankly, I don't want to even try to replace him. If we miss the playoffs largely because we lost Datsyuk and I didn't want to even try to replace him, well, so be it. We've had a real good run over the past two and a half decades, but I think I'm ready for it to be over. Hanta yo, baby!" ...but that wasn't going to happen. Even if we're taking it as fact that Holland has always been the one pushing the "Playoffs or bust!" policy (as opposed to it being an Ilitch mandate), I think any of the other 29 GMs probably would've done the same thing. Maybe they don't sign Nielsen, but, IMO, they pay a price to bring in a proven top-six centerman. And it's not like signing Nielsen and "future planning" were necessarily mutually exclusive. Zetterberg was coming off a disappointing season and it wasn't clear that he'd be able to hold down the 1C spot, and Larkin had spent his rookie season on the wing. In "replacing" Datsyuk, Nielsen would, in theory, be a bridge between Zetterberg and Larkin (and/or Athanasiou). I'm with Lefty -- I think the Helm deal is less defensible. And add to that the DeKeyser deal and the Abdelkader deal. Nielsen, at least, is a legit top-six centerman. Helm is a bottom-sixer. DeKeyser is a second-pairing defenseman. Abdelkader is a middle-six winger. Of course, if we're critiquing Holland, we don't have to limit ourselves to the past year. For example, we could argue that if Holland had acquired Brent Burns when he was available, we'd still be contenders in the year 2017.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW YOU DIRTY HERETIC