Russian One?

[12Newf 0]

im still blown away that there are only 27 russians in the league...i never really thought about it but just assumed there were a lot more than that. thats less than one per team!

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I've never been a fan of this argument. When it comes down to it, playing hockey is their career. If you could make an extra million somewhere else, I'm pretty sure you'd take it. Granted the players who do things like that will never be fan-favorites, but I don't agree with vilifying them because of it. Obviously you're going to like a Stevie better than a Yashin, but he's not a bad person for taking the higher offer. When it comes down to it, a million dollars is a million dollars, whether you're making 20k a year or 10 mil a year.

Something to add to that...

This happens every season in the NHL. Someone changes teams as a UFA to get paid more. Why are Russians labeled as greedy for moving back to their homeland to make more money, when a guy that moves to another team, ala Drury, to get paid more is just taking market value? I'll never understand why Americans/Canadians seem to feel that the NHL is the be all, end all of hockey.

[Guest jaytan]

By this I'm sure you mean Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, and Holmstrom right? For the record, they are currently our top 4 scorers. But I'm sure you can find a ton of recent cup winning teams without any european players on the roster.... yea... you kinda suck.

I'm sorry, but you're kinda wrong.

Look, nobody is saying that the Wings should have a completely North American-trained roster, but it's simply impossible to win a Stanley Cup with so many of them in the lineup and it's nearly impossible to win if the team is primarily led by European players. It's good to have balance - which we don't have - but it's even better to have a lot of Canadians and just a sprinkling of highly-skilled Europeans - which the best teams in history have always had.

Just look at the names engraved on the Cup and you'll see that the facts back my argument and crumble yours to dust.

[chrisdetroit 189]

There are several very strong reasons, both related to the financial viability of the franchise and to the quality of the team's play. First off, and most importantly, everyone knows that Russians (in particular, but most European players in general) aren't really guys who play hard for their NHL clubs and do what it takes in the spring to get the Cup. This team is already very un-balanced when it comes to Europeans vs. North American players and we really don't need to add any selfish, greedy, self-absorbed cancers who aren't willing to play tough hockey.

Also - and this has also been very well established - the Eurocentric make-up of the current incarnation of the Red Wings is hurting the franchise's image with its fans. Fewer people are going to games and most Wings fans aren't really enthusiatic about the guys on the roster. This can't be stressed enough. You know it and I know it.

Finally, this team is the softest in the league. Why make it softer?

There's not really any way you can argue these points.

That's the biggest bunch of crap I have heard in a long time. You are streotyping Europeans as "soft". European's don't play hard? Yea, sure watch Z , Datsyuk and Homer dogging it every night. And as far as soft, every one knows what a wuss Valddy was. And Homer is such a crybaby . Right... We need some more big strong Canadians like San Jose. How many cups have they won? Or how bout Aneheim. Who are they missing this year since they are #26 in the league in scoring? Selanne, the European.

We ought to get rid of the Lidstrom guy, cause Euros suck.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I'm sorry, but you're kinda wrong.

Look, nobody is saying that the Wings should have a completely North American-trained roster, but it's simply impossible to win a Stanley Cup with so many of them in the lineup and it's nearly impossible to win if the team is primarily led by European players. It's good to have balance - which we don't have - but it's even better to have a lot of Canadians and just a sprinkling of highly-skilled Europeans - which the best teams in history have always had.

Just look at the names engraved on the Cup and you'll see that the facts back my argument and crumble yours to dust.

You're on drugs. the cup has been around for 80 years and the first 65 there were no Europeans so that argument is invalid. In fact, there are no teams in the league that are "primarily" European. The wings have 22 players on the roster and 12 are European. That's only 1 more than half.

You need to get over your anti-European sentiment and enjoy the game. San Jose has lots of big strong Canadians and Americans and they can't seem to get past the 2nd round. Those "sissy" European Red Wings beat them last year.

[lets go pavel 2]

You're on drugs. the cup has been around for 80 years and the first 65 there were no Europeans so that argument is invalid. In fact, there are no teams in the league that are "primarily" European. The wings have 22 players on the roster and 12 are European. That's only 1 more than half.

You need to get over your anti-European sentiment and enjoy the game. San Jose has lots of big strong Canadians and Americans and they can't seem to get past the 2nd round. Those "sissy" European Red Wings beat them last year.

exactly ... what we need is a mix of skill, speed, smarts, grit, hustle, goaltending, and a little luck ... if you look at the teams whose names are engraved in the cup, these are the things that they all had in common ... it doesn't matter a bit what country all of these things come from ...

Edited November 23, 2007 by lets go pavel

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I'm sorry, but you're kinda wrong.

Look, nobody is saying that the Wings should have a completely North American-trained roster, but it's simply impossible to win a Stanley Cup with so many of them in the lineup and it's nearly impossible to win if the team is primarily led by European players. It's good to have balance - which we don't have - but it's even better to have a lot of Canadians and just a sprinkling of highly-skilled Europeans - which the best teams in history have always had.

Just look at the names engraved on the Cup and you'll see that the facts back my argument and crumble yours to dust.

That makes no sense... Russians have been in the NHL for less than 20 years.. The names engraved on the Cup are mostly canadian because Europeans haven't been playing in the NHL for a long time. The first wave of Russians coming to the NHL (late 80s early 90s) was the sole reason we've won a cup since the Gordie days.. Without taking a risk on guys like Fetisov, Larionov, Konstantinov, Federov, and Kozlov we would not have won the back to back cups (factor in your other Europeans i.e. Lidstrom and Holmstrom and it's even more obvious). Those europeans made up the majority of our offence. We simply never would have had the pieces to win the cup without Europeans... and without the back to back cups we wouldn't have had the $ and notoriety to put together the 2002 squad.

Also, if Canadians are so superior why have they won 1 olympic gold since the mid 50s? Actually, since the Russian's began playing hockey at the Olympics in 1954 North American teams have only won gold 3 times... I fail to see how a Canadian dominated team is assumed to be better than any other, when it has never been proven the case. I really don't see how you can possibly make the case for Russians not be able to win you a cup... what evidence do you have to the contrary?

[Doggy 130]

There are not 29, or 28.

According to NHL.com's stats page, there are 27 Russians who have played an NHL game this season:

F: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Frolov, Kovalev, Radulov, S.Kozlov, Fedorov, V.Kozlov, Afinogenov, Brylin, Samsonov, Tolpeko, Semin

D: Gonchar, Zubov, A.Markov, Tyutin, Volchenko, Semenov, Zyuzin, Grebeshkov, Kalinin, Kondratiev

G: Khabibulin, Bryzgalov

Saprykin is the guy you guys both missed; he's playing in Russia this season also.

There are more than 27 Russian players in the league that have played this year. NHL.com is wrong. Probably not many more though.

[Doggy 130]

Okay just worked it out. There could be more but the four players I noticed were: Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zhitnik and Zherdev.

So there are at least 31 Russians in the league. Still not many though.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Okay just worked it out. There could be more but the four players I noticed were: Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zhitnik and Zherdev.

So there are at least 31 Russians in the league. Still not many though.

Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zhitnik, and Zherdev are not Russian. They were all born in the USSR, which we all know is defunct. Nabokov is now from Kazakhstan while the other 3 are from Ukraine

[Doggy 130]

Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zhitnik, and Zherdev are not Russian. They were all born in the USSR, which we all know is defunct. Nabokov is now from Kazakhstan while the other 3 are from Ukraine

No they're Russian. That's why they represent Russia in the Olympics and stuff.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

No they're Russian. That's why they represent Russia in the Olympics and stuff.

No, you do not understand the International rules. Without going into the boring details, in certain situations athletes who have ties to more than one country can choose which country they which to represent in International competition. That is how those fellas who are NOT Russian, play for Russia in International play.

If you don't believe me on the nationality, check out TSN, and what I said will be confirmed none of those guys are Russian.

[Doggy 130]

No, you do not understand the International rules. Without going into the boring details, in certain situations athletes who have ties to more than one country can choose which country they which to represent in International competition. That is how those fellas who are NOT Russian, play for Russia in International play.

If you don't believe me on the nationality, check out TSN, and what I said will be confirmed none of those guys are Russian.

No I know where they were born. However, their allegiance, their ties and citizenships would say that they are Russian. They lived in Russia, speak Russian, represent Russia internationally and have their nationalities listed as Russian. Sure, they were born in a part of the USSR that is now not part of Russia but it seems ridiculously technical to say they aren't Russian.

And if you want to be that technical, fine. For the intent of this particular discussion however, let's just say they ARE because they sure as hell came into the NHL like any other Russian and are affected by the transfer agreement like any other Russian.

Anyway, I checked out another resource nhlnumbers.com and it says there are 37 Russians in the league. I think it's counting players like Tverdovsky, Zhamnov, Yashin etc. so it's probably closer to 30. I can't be bothered going through them all to see.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

No I know where they were born. However, their allegiance, their ties and citizenships would say that they are Russian. They lived in Russia, speak Russian, represent Russia internationally and have their nationalities listed as Russian. Sure, they were born in a part of the USSR that is now not part of Russia but it seems ridiculously technical to say they aren't Russian.

And if you want to be that technical, fine. For the intent of this particular discussion however, let's just say they ARE because they sure as hell came into the NHL like any other Russian and are affected by the transfer agreement like any other Russian.

Anyway, I checked out another resource nhlnumbers.com and it says there are 37 Russians in the league. I think it's counting players like Tverdovsky, Zhamnov, Yashin etc. so it's probably closer to 30. I can't be bothered going through them all to see.

I actually did spend the time going through each teams NHL rosters, there aren't 37. 27 IS the correct number. I'm not getting technical. The countries those players are from are not Russia. They never have been. They were once part of a larger country, but are no longer so. Should all American born players claim to be British since American was once part of Great Britian and since they speak English? No.

Regardless of what you or I may want to call them, the fact remains that they are not Russian. It just so happens to be that that is the way I look at it as well.

As far as the transfer agreement, or lack thereof, that has nothing to do with nationality. You should do a little research before you start throwing things out there like that.

EDIT: How is it being ridiculously technical to say they aren't Russian? They weren't' born in Russia, therefore, they aren't Russian. End of story.

Edited November 24, 2007 by BringHomeTheCup!

[Doggy 130]

I actually did spend the time going through each teams NHL rosters, there aren't 37. 27 IS the correct number. I'm not getting technical. The countries those players are from are not Russia. They never have been. They were once part of a larger country, but are no longer so. Should all American born players claim to be British since American was once part of Great Britian and since they speak English? No.

Regardless of what you or I may want to call them, the fact remains that they are not Russian. It just so happens to be that that is the way I look at it as well.

As far as the transfer agreement, or lack thereof, that has nothing to do with nationality. You should do a little research before you start throwing things out there like that.

EDIT: How is it being ridiculously technical to say they aren't Russian? They weren't' born in Russia, therefore, they aren't Russian. End of story.

Yeah that's right I just made up that it said there're 37 Russians. That's what I do.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/countries.php

It also happens to say ALL those players are Russian!!!

Edited November 24, 2007 by Doggy

[sibiriak 84]

I actually did spend the time going through each teams NHL rosters, there aren't 37. 27 IS the correct number. I'm not getting technical. The countries those players are from are not Russia. They never have been. They were once part of a larger country, but are no longer so. Should all American born players claim to be British since American was once part of Great Britian and since they speak English? No.

Regardless of what you or I may want to call them, the fact remains that they are not Russian. It just so happens to be that that is the way I look at it as well.

As far as the transfer agreement, or lack thereof, that has nothing to do with nationality. You should do a little research before you start throwing things out there like that.

EDIT: How is it being ridiculously technical to say they aren't Russian? They weren't' born in Russia, therefore, they aren't Russian. End of story.

Well, if you want to define players' nationality by the country they were born in, then there are NO Russians, Ukranians, Kazakhs, Czechs, Slovaks, or Belorussians playing in the NHL right now. They are all Soviets or Czechoslovaks. The ones who were born after the break up (1990 and up) are not yet eligible for the draft.

The players who grew up in the USSR or CSSR were allowed to choose what country they wanted to represent. Thus, Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zherdev and Zhitnik are Russian, while Fedotenko is Ukranian, Salei, Grabovsky and the Kostitsin brothers are Belorussian, Antropov is Kazakh, Lang and Jagr are Czech, and Bondra is a Slovak (although according to you he should count as a Ukranian since that's where he was born - to Czechoslovakian parents).

And the transfer agreement is about mutual recognition and respect of signed contracts by the NHL and the Russian league.

No agreement means that ANY player can abandon his Superliga contract and be allowed by the NHL to play there. And vice versa. The player can be Canadian, Russian, Czech or Swedish. Randy Robitaile started this season in Russia but then bolted for Ottawa. Kondratiev did the opposite instead of going to the Annaheim farm club.

[vangvace 12]

per nhl.com there are 33 players born in the country that currently is Russia under contract with an NHL team

Edited November 24, 2007 by vangvace

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

The countries those players are from are not Russia.

Then you wouldn't mind me saying Brett Hull, technically, isn't American.

[eva unit zero 271]

Then you wouldn't mind me saying Brett Hull, technically, isn't American.

Brett Hull is an American citizen by birth.

No player in the NHL currently was born a 'Russian' citizen. There are 27 Russian-born players in the NHL. There are others from former Soviet countries.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Brett Hull is an American citizen by birth.

No player in the NHL currently was born a 'Russian' citizen. There are 27 Russian-born players in the NHL. There are others from former Soviet countries.

Yes, but my point was that Brett is a player born in Canada to parents of Candian origin. That circumstance is nearly similar to the non-Russian born Russian citizen who choose to represent Russia. Anyways, I'm indifferent to the argument of +2 or -2 Russians.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Well, if you want to define players' nationality by the country they were born in, then there are NO Russians, Ukranians, Kazakhs, Czechs, Slovaks, or Belorussians playing in the NHL right now. They are all Soviets or Czechoslovaks. The ones who were born after the break up (1990 and up) are not yet eligible for the draft.

The players who grew up in the USSR or CSSR were allowed to choose what country they wanted to represent. Thus, Nabokov, Vishnevski, Zherdev and Zhitnik are Russian, while Fedotenko is Ukranian, Salei, Grabovsky and the Kostitsin brothers are Belorussian, Antropov is Kazakh, Lang and Jagr are Czech, and Bondra is a Slovak (although according to you he should count as a Ukranian since that's where he was born - to Czechoslovakian parents).

And the transfer agreement is about mutual recognition and respect of signed contracts by the NHL and the Russian league.

No agreement means that ANY player can abandon his Superliga contract and be allowed by the NHL to play there. And vice versa. The player can be Canadian, Russian, Czech or Swedish. Randy Robitaile started this season in Russia but then bolted for Ottawa. Kondratiev did the opposite instead of going to the Annaheim farm club.

Poor phrasing on my part. What I meant was that these players aren't Russian because they weren't born in a county that is now Russia.

The 4 guys mentioned are not Russian. They do represent Russia in International play. Again, without going into boring details, circumstances allowed these guys to choose which country to play for. This does not make them Russian. As I said before, these guys are no more Russian than an American player is British.

Then you wouldn't mind me saying Brett Hull, technically, isn't American.

I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly Brett was born in Canada. His mother is American, thus by USA law he is an American citizen. But no, that wouldn't bother me one bit.

[sibiriak 84]

Poor phrasing on my part. What I meant was that these players aren't Russian because they weren't born in a county that is now Russia.

The 4 guys mentioned are not Russian. They do represent Russia in International play. Again, without going into boring details, circumstances allowed these guys to choose which country to play for. This does not make them Russian. As I said before, these guys are no more Russian than an American player is British.

Do you mean Russian as a nationality or Russian as a citizenship? Because there ARE ethnic Russians in Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belorussia, Latvia etc. As there are other nationalities than "American" in the US. Nabokov is Russian by nationality, as both of his parents are Russian. He is also a Russian citizen, born in what now is Kazakhstan.

Fedorov is Russian by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

Yzerman is a Canadian by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

Ulf Samelsson is Swedish by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

What do you mean exactly, when you say "so-and-so is Russian (not Russian, Swedish, etc.)"?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Do you mean Russian as a nationality or Russian as a citizenship? Because there ARE ethnic Russians in Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belorussia, Latvia etc. As there are other nationalities than "American" in the US. Nabokov is Russian by nationality, as both of his parents are Russian. He is also a Russian citizen, born in what now is Kazakhstan.

Fedorov is Russian by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

Yzerman is a Canadian by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

Ulf Samelsson is Swedish by nationality, but an American by citizenship.

What do you mean exactly, when you say "so-and-so is Russian (not Russian, Swedish, etc.)"?

What I mean is simply that none of those guys are Russian by heritage. They were born Soviets, and the territory they were born in has never been Russia.

At any rate, I'm tired of debating this. I guess I'll just agree to disagree with you guys.

[sibiriak 84]

What I mean is simply that none of those guys are Russian by heritage. They were born Soviets, and the territory they were born in has never been Russia.

At any rate, I'm tired of debating this. I guess I'll just agree to disagree with you guys.

Actually, many of them are Russian by heritage. Their first language is Russian, their parents are both or one Russian, their passports say "nationality: Russian, citizenship: Russian".

Admit it, you read their birthplaces on nhl.com and went with those without further thought, when you claimed that those players were not Russian. When in actual fact and by any reasonable criteria they are. So quit trying to back up your initial erroneous statement by making further claims that don't hold water.

Normally, I would just let it go, but there are few enough Russians left in the NHL for me to give up even more of them.

Edited November 26, 2007 by sibiriak

[58Miles2Joe 12]

Weak Dollar.

/thanks GOP