Sundin

[Guest wingswillwincup]

Hard to say what the #'s will be...HNIC Satellite Hotstove last night claimed that the salary cap will most likely rise again for the 2008/2009 season - as to the amount who knows...How much would it take to re-sign Lidstrom, Sundin (hypothetically of course), & Zetterberg (long term) is too hard to say @ this point in time - however I believe we have roughly $4 mill in cap space now, & will have more cap space with the players salary we'd lose in the trade (for Sundin), & with the cap increasing we'd get some space from that as well.

your forgetting that franzen cleary filppula got raises coming there way , if howard or ozzie doesnt comeback and if he does and tanks we always need a bit of cap space to get a goalie if need be , we cant sign sundin to an extension , only way to fit him in after the raises to those 3 mentioned and hank is if lidstrom takes like a 1 million salary, which wont happen

[MacK_Attack 108]

Holland may look @ acquiring Sundin as a long term deal vs a short term rental...Sundin may not want to return to T.O. once he gets a breath of fresh air, & realises there's much better teams to play for

I don't think Sundin is willing to sign a long-term deal with anybody at this point. He has said that his career is very much year-to-year now and he doesn't want to be a 40-year old has-been in the NHL. He will retire sooner than most think.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

he refused to do so with guerin at the deadline , thats why he held out for bertuzzi so he wouldnt give up top players

He wont trade top prospects for a rental regardless , all those teams that gave up top young guys last year were teams that had no shot at winning the cup

There is a difference. Guerin is terrible. Holland was smart enough to realize giving up good picks and prospects for washed up players like him would be a bad idea. Bertuzzi was had for a pretty cheap price, Mattias wont be anything great.

How do you know? We have the best shot at a cup this year. It's not like were desperate like San Jose, Nashville and Atlanta were last year giving up a s*** load for rental guys who lasted 2 rounds. We're looking at picking up quality players who could almost guarantee us a cup. I will not be at all surprised to see Holland make a big trade or 2 this year.

[MacK_Attack 108]

There is a difference. Guerin is terrible. Holland was smart enough to realize giving up good picks and prospects for washed up players like him would be a bad idea. Bertuzzi was had for a pretty cheap price, Mattias wont be anything great.

How do you know? We have the best shot at a cup this year. It's not like were desperate like San Jose, Nashville and Atlanta were last year giving up a s*** load for rental guys who lasted 2 rounds. We're looking at picking up quality players who could almost guarantee us a cup. I will not be at all surprised to see Holland make a big trade or 2 this year.

The thing is, those desparate teams (like a Columbus or something like that) would be willing to absolutely sell the farm for a guy like Sundin.

Mats may control his destination, but he's loyal to a fault and I wouldn't be surprised to see him go to whichever team offers the best package for him. That's the kind of guy he is. I don't think Detroit could offer the best trade package.

[Guest wingswillwincup]

There is a difference. Guerin is terrible. Holland was smart enough to realize giving up good picks and prospects for washed up players like him would be a bad idea. Bertuzzi was had for a pretty cheap price, Mattias wont be anything great.

How do you know? We have the best shot at a cup this year. It's not like were desperate like San Jose, Nashville and Atlanta were last year giving up a s*** load for rental guys who lasted 2 rounds. We're looking at picking up quality players who could almost guarantee us a cup. I will not be at all surprised to see Holland make a big trade or 2 this year.

guerin had a good season last year what are you talking about , he had 28 goals before he was dealt and ended with 36 goals , bertuzzi was had for cheap cause he hasnt done anything in years so it was a gamble and as were seeing bertuzzi continues to do nothing while mattias is having a great year this year , wont be a top 6 forward but can be a 3rd liner with 10-15 goals a season , still better then what we got from bert , which was nothing , but it was worth the risk

I still dont think were gonna trade away top guys from other players , were 1st in the nhl so why take the risk and ruin our future ?? again getting sundin doesnt guarantee us a cup , you know that ....... anyways we'll see what happens

[Guest wingswillwincup]

Franzen has 1 year left under contract, Filppula is a RFA (won't be able to command that much more than his current $850,000), Cleary is a UFA (may or may not test the market for who knows how much $$$), Howard is also a RFA (see Filppula), & Osgood will get a raise - but he'll probably be reasonable, & won't demand anything more than $1 to $1.5 million.

As for signing a netminder this offseason - who's out there that'll be available that's better than Ozzie (maybe Huet?)...IMHO Ozzie is probably Holland's best bet unless he were to swing a trade. Who knows what will become of Dom - me thinks this will be his last season in the NHL (the man needs to spend more time with his family).

Getting back to the hypothetical re-signing of Sundin; I'm sure it could be done - especially if he, & fellow Swede Lidstrom earn similar paychecks for the 2008/2009 season as are earning now...Maybe Cleary doesn't get re-signed for the $$$ he wants, & he goes elsewhere .....Zetterberg has 1 more season under contract as well; he'll be Holland's #1 priority when they're allowed to negotiate a contract extension.

cleary is gonna get a nice raise so will franzen , im sure we'll try and lock these guys up longterm same as filppula , dont be surprised if those guys combined get us 3+ million added to the cap , ozzie will probably get 1.5 not cause he'd gonna be reasonable , because no other nhl team will take him , lets be honest .... maybe tampa bay , thats about it

Who's better then ozzie ? well i personally dont see how ozzie is amazing hes doing well yes , but we dont give him alot of shots to begin with , hes doing his job ,. i dont know about huet , it could be a risk that could pay off but i think kolzig is better , hes on an awful team , put him in detroit and hed be awesome ( my opinion) ....... this is definetly haseks last season , only chance in hell that sundin can come here is if he and lidstrom get 1 yr deals at like 5 mill per and then sundin walks after 1 more year , i still dont see it happening , he'll return to the leafs

[MacK_Attack 108]

That's quite possible, but in Detroit he won't face the pressures/expectations that he's had to face while playing in Toronto. This may actually add a year, or 2 to his career and make the game more enjoyable - especially when half the team in Detroit is comprised of Swedes.

I don't think pressure had anything to do with it. He's played in Toronto for nearly 15 years, the pressure is second nature to him. Personally, I feel as if it's just personal pride. If he isn't a first line player anymore, he doesn't want to keep playing in the NHL.

He'll just keep signing one year deals and he'll judge his play year-by-year. I think if he does get traded, he'll go back to Toronto because he's pretty set on scoring 1,000 points as a Leaf.

[Guest DetroitIan]

Dunno about that...I'm sure Lilja would love to take a break from being the whipping boy every now, & then; Antro would fill in perfectly - if not he could take over that position full-time from Lilja.

Personally I'm still not impressed with Antropov; way too many past nights of indifferent play, slow as hell, taking dumb penalties, & being injury prone seem to have been his specialty.

All I know is, in 26 games, the guys has 10 goals, 15 assists, he's a +6, and he's got 34 penalty min. Sounds and looks to me, like the guy contributes in some way basically every night. He is FAR from a Lilja. If Lilja contributed even half that amount, he would be praised on these boards.

[MacK_Attack 108]

I'm taking into account Antro's previous seasons; they were nothing to be proud of that's for sure.

It's the first time he's ever been truly healthy. He's had a career full of freak injuries.

[Guest DetroitIan]

I'm taking into account Antro's previous seasons; they were nothing to be proud of that's for sure.

Oh absolutely. In fact I agree with you there. Nothing but disappointments. Another poster mentioned how Antropov has been terrible this year. Which is very far off. So I figured I would drop some knowledge, lol.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Alot of this depends on Leafs' management. I doubt anyone in T.O. would be happy seeing Sundin traded unless the Leafs got a great return. If Ferguson (or his replacement) traded Sundin for Hudler, Kindl, and a 2nd rounder I think the media would have his head.

I'd like to think that a team as desperate to win as San Jose, for instance, would offer up an Ehrhoff + prospect/picks or evan a Michalek + prospects/picks package that would trump the Hudler + Kindl + picks deal.

The only players the Leafs would take (excluding Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Datsyuk, Lidstrom) would be either Filpulla or Kronwall. And I don't see this happening.

Holland won't be stupid, and the Leafs aren't going to trade away the face of their franchise over the last 10 years for nothing.

Something would have to give, no?

[VM1138 1,921]

What the hell is all this talk about this being the Wings' last year for a GREAT shot at the Cup? People have been saying that every year. It's simply not true.

THe only player likely to retire this year is Hasek. That's a void that will need to be filled, but Ozzie has a few more years in him and as long as he stays solid the Wings are set in net. People who think Ozzie isn't a starter don't understand hockey it would seem, because he's been a starter on every team the last few years and has always done exceedingly well.

Now, since virtually everyoen else will be staying, what do we have to be worried about? Lidstrom and Chelios aren't fading, not by a long shot. And Hudler and Filpulla are still developing. People expected them to be league-leaders this year, and because they aren't living up to that ridiculous expectation they're failures who should be traded? Picture this:

A year or two down the line, the Wings will have (barring trades, etc.): a Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hudler, Franzen, Filpulla, Cleary all in their PRIMES. Not to mention Chelios, Lidstrom, Lebda (who is only becoming better and better), and Rafalski anchoring the defense.

Basically, picture this year's team, only better because the young guys will be fully in their prime.

So how is this team facing it's last great chance at the Cup? The Wings aren't going anywhere for a long time.

[MacK_Attack 108]

If Ferguson (or his replacement) traded Sundin for Hudler, Kindl, and a 2nd rounder I think the media would have his head.

Exactly. Let's consider the source of this supposed rumour. It's from Bruce Garrioch, an Ottawa Sun homer who would love nothing more than to see the Leafs get ripped off for Sundin.

[Opie 308]

I'm taking into account Antro's previous seasons; they were nothing to be proud of that's for sure.

You also then should be taking into consideration that this is the first year that he has played in the same position for more than 2 or three weeks, in years past he has moved from Center to Wing to Center back to wing. This year he also has had consistent linemates.

Last chance for the wings to win a cup??????????

Has the NHL released a decision to shut the league down and I didn't hear about it, did they make changes to the CBA and now no one can sign free agents or trade anymore???

OR>>

Does the OP of that statement like crack a little bit more than the rest of us.

Yes losing Lids and Cheli will be hard to make up for, but wasn't the loss of Schneider supposed to be detrimental, weren't this and last season supposed to be rebuilding years??

Overreact much?

Sundin would be a great addition to this team don't get me wrong, but that price for one forward for a maximum of 4 months is too high. Especially when you have no idea what his intentions are for next season.

Trading Hudler for a rental is an alright idea in my book as long as it doesn't take prospects and a draft choice along with him for one player that will be in the D for a mere 2 month stretch, if it does win the wings the cup this year, most of you will be back on this board, moaning about the fact that there are no prospects left in the system and all of the second line talent was traded for a couple of rental players.

The team is in first place (league not division or conference), the secondary scoring is coming on a nightly clip, guys like Hudler, Cleary, Filpula, are chipping in. I know the LGW expectations are high on some of the role players but Lebda is doing a great job (No, he is not lids), Cheli is playing like I haven't seen him play in a couple of years (in the play offensively a lot this year, although he has a hard time hitting the broadside of a barn).

This team is playing very good hockey right now, could they slide yes, could they get better yes, could one injury take down the whole team yes, (they lose lids and it is all but over).

But all of those things can be said for every team right now.

Oh and guess what, there will also inevitably come a time when the team loses, I don't know say 4-5-6 maybe in a row, and this board will freak out like it is the reckoning day.

But until the wings show a definite sign of falling out of the race I don't see the point in making a trade for the sake of making a trade.

Fill a need sure, but don't overpay for it so that you can say, hey guess what I made a trade for Vinny L, it just cost me Dats, Huds, and Kindl, but now the team has a legit second line scoring option, it just lost half of the first line's production that's all.

In the salary cap era trades for rental players will slow down, because by nature a rental trade will be worth less than a trade for a player who is under salary for 2 more years. Logistics.

[Opie 308]

Yeah and the Leafs are lucky he signed it as well.

He is second in every offensive category to Sundin except assists in which third behind Sundin and Blake.

And isn't this the same board that people clamber for more PIM's. Hell isn't that a part of the reason people ***** about Dats, they give him s*** for being a Lady Bing every year. Yet Antropov who is in the top 3 for his team in all major offensive categories and is + 6 (also second on his team) on a team that is struggling and is 10-11-6 right now, takes dumb penalties.

I don't watch many Leafs games, but my bro-in-law is a huge Leafs fan and he and I talk Hockey all of the time, this is the first year he has had anything nice to say about Nik, and he has had a lot to say.

Yeah the wings should definitely pass on this guy if he were thrown in the deal!

The past is the past, but like you said injuries, shifting of linemates, shifting of positions has caused a delay in his game.

Does the past impact you opinion of Dan Cleary?

Man there are so many times I am thankful that Holland is the GM.

Half of you guys would probably trade Hudler, Flip, Lilja, Sammy, and Kronner for Miro Satan and Bryan Berad, but try to throw Downey in on a trade and watch the s*** hit the proverbial fan around here, not that he would be a focal part of any trade anyway.

[VM1138 1,921]

You know, the funny thing about losing Lidstrom and Chelios is, there is nobody really truly better in the league. We're not exactly seeing a renaissance of defensemen. When they're gone, the worst that will happen to the Wings is A) We trade/acquire the remaining best defensemen because they're either not happy on their crappy teams or they're too expensive, or B) The Wings will just be brought down more to the level of other teams defensively.

So the Wings would still be among the elite. THe future is bright for this team.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

How big of a raise are we talking for Franzen???

I honstly can't see him making much more than Samuelsson ($1.2M), unless he has a monster playoffs. He hasn't produced the way I thought he would but I still think he can produce some goals.

As for Cleary, I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of Draper ($2.128M).

[redwinger40 0]

The Wings wouldn't have the cap space to resign Sundin.

You have a great point. Like I said at the beginning of the year when everyone on this board was crying out about our lack of offseason activity, we have a great team RIGHT NOW. We have a great mix of young guys and veterans to bring them along. Its as though being the best team in the league is not enough... Keep in mind that our offense is tops in the league (88 goals to 2nd place Carolina's 86 while playing 1 less game), so even though I love Sundin as a player and think he'd fit in well in Detroit, offense is not a NEED we have. Right now we have the players to bridge the gap when players like Lidstrom and Chelios retire. If anyone is looking for a trade "splash" at or before the deadline, we should look to use our excess of young defencemen to obtain a young, promising goaltender- because (from an outsider's observation) it doesn't look like Howard will be the answer based on his play in Grand Rapids (even though I love the guy), and though Ozzie could hold down the job for a couple of years, he can't play forever. We should be looking for a young guy that can get some work as Ozzie's backup the next couple of years (I believe Hasek will retire after this season) and immediately step in and be effective when its time.

So in summary, though I love the possibility of getting Sundin, we shouldn't break up the good thing we have going, and he may not be what we need most right now...

[Dabura 12,232]

I really didn't think this rumor had legs, but...well, I guess it does. I think it's ultimately going to come down to the number of years Sundin's looking for; he'll probably be looking for a one-year deal, but Holland won't give up a whole lot for that.

Then again, I said Sundin wouldn't leave Toronto this season. So who knows.

Whatever the case, one thing's for sure: having Sundin in our top 6 would be sick. Absolutely ******* sick.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Dabura

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I got the perfect trade for Sundin. Let's give them Bowman in a straight up trade.. they've been dieing to get him.

[#1redwingfan 0]

Sundin is their entire team so unless we give up Lidstrom, Zetterberg or Datsyuk he is not coming to Motown.

look for a more realistic trade such as Ryder off the habs or something along those lines.

[Dabura 12,232]

look for a more realistic trade such as Ryder off the habs or something along those lines.

The chances of him coming to Motown are slim, but I've got think the chances of him going to another EC Canadian team are even slimmer. As dysfunctional as the Leafs organization is, they're not going to give their heart and soul to a division rival.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Dabura

[Opie 308]

Being 2nd in points on a team like the Leafs isn't anything special since their forward lines are rather horrid once you get beyond their top line, & Mats is primarily the reason why Antro is doing well (kinda the same effect Lidstrom has on guys like Lilja)...As for the pims - in Antros case many are of the dumb variety; usually a behind the play cross check, or a slash while in the opponents end of the ice with the play moving into the Leafs end of the ice; as far as I'm aware of nobody here is complaining about Dats sitting in the sin bin - better for him not to if you ask me.

Cleary was given a camp try-out, & was guaranteed of nothing; he worked his a$$ off to earn his spot on the roster, & is costing us less than $1 million while Antro has done nothing for the Leafs in the past, & was given a $2 million per season for 2 year contract - so yeah Leaf fans are happy that the guy for the 1st time in his career might hit the 20 goal mark (that is unless he gets injured 1st - which he's prone to do)...Like I said he's nothing special, & on a team that's in pretty rough shape he probably looks pretty good.

I'll be the 1st to sit down @ the table for my fill of crow if he lasts the whole season, and/or can hit the 30 25 goal mark.

He is second in scoring on the team and that doesn't matter, well seeing as he has better stats than Jason Blake does this year how does that impact you opinion on Jason Blake?

So if lack of consistency and injury are important to you, and his numbers this year really don't matter it is what he has done in the past that makes you think he is nothing special would you trade Sammy straight up for him? Flip? who on the wings in your opinion most closely resembles what Antropov brings to the table.

Because I will tell you right now imo he would be an upgrade over any current wing forward other than Z or Dats.

He has yet to play one forward position for longer than a couple of months at a time.

Is he living up to his # 10 pick in the draft, No, but he is a damn good forward and if he struggles to get to or comes just short of 25 goals, he would make a damn fine addition to this team.

His projections for this year are (obviously at his current pace) 30g 46a 76pts and all of this while average just short of 20 minutes.

But on second thought you are right based on his past numbers he would suck, lets just mortgage the future on Sudin alone, trade the other half of the Org for Rob Blake, after all his past numbers are great.

But either way my point to posting his name is that if the Leafs want that much for 2 months of service for Sundin they better throw something into the deal that will be with the Wings long term.

[Guest wingswillwincup]

Ozzie has had winning #'s on all 3 teams (neither Blues or Isles were great teams when he was with them). He's a solid netminder, a great team guy, & has a few more years left in him. I'm certain he'll play in Detroit for a few more seasons...Kolzig is wearing out, & isn't worth going after since Holland has a better guy in Ozzie (IMHO), & will want to groom Howard to take over in a few seasons as our #1 guy between the pipes.

I do agree that our salary cap will go up with Cleary/Franzen/Filppula will get their raises in due time (though Cleary/Franzen may get insane offers from other teams)...Sundin may never leave Toronto; that's too bad since that team is a longshot to make the playoffs, & will continue to struggle for the forseable future...All I'm saying is that Holland probably wouldn't obtain Sundin unless it included a 2, or 3 year contract extension since the price for Mats could be high.

osgood will come here because nobody else will want him and lets face it , i like the guy and all but if he played his whole career elsewhere and not here he wouldnt even be close to having the nukmbers he has now .....kolzig for a 1 yr deal might be an option i still think he can put up good numbers , hes on an awful caps team ... just cause ozzie is having a better year on a better team doesnt make him better

All I'm saying is that Holland probably wouldn't obtain Sundin unless it included a 2, or 3 year contract extension since the price for Mats could be high. ----------well what do you think i been saying ?? we wouldnt have enough cap space and holland wont trade our future for a rental and as for franzen and cleary they are important to the team and i can see them getting 3-4 yr deals at 2 mill per , sammy, drake,ellis are likely the ones out when their contracts are up

[larionov_8 12]

I think it's safe to say that Antropov, while perhaps having a better season than previously, is not a player we want here. I live near Toronto so I see plently of Leafs hockey, so my observations are not merely based on stats. He got off to a hot start, but he's slowed down to his usual pace. Personally I cannot believe why the Leaf's decided to reward him with a new contract. All he has going for him is his size, and I guess size is something Toronto really values, because I think they may be the biggest team in the league. Antropov is ok if he's not hurt (and he's often hurt) and if he's playing with skilled players like Sundin. But if the two somehow came together, I would be disappointed if Detroit gave up anything substantial...

If we want anyone from Toronto, it's Sundin....or maybe Kaberle, but somehow I don't see that happening either