Kronwall And 1st Round Pick For Sundin?

[Systemfel 33]

"Kronwall And 1st Round Pick For Sundin?"

No. Horrible.

[Opie 308]

Gaining Sundin would help this team, but at what cost. Kronwall leaving would take away too much from the D.

Sundin for Kronwall would make this team less than it already is, why make a trade to worsen the roster?

[eva unit zero 271]

I think we may be losing sight of the ultimate goal,the Stanley Cup.Its not our goal to be a team that almost wins for 5 years. Having Sundin in our line-up does not guarantee a cup but no trade does that. It would however make us WAY more difficult to beat. Also consider the effects of losing Hank for the playoff run due to his chronic balky back. Having Sundin provides insurance against an injury. Losing Kronwall would suck for our defence but we actually have enough cap room to add a physical d-man as well.

So, say we trade Kronwall and a first to get Sundin. Now we have a hole on defense. So we trade Filppula or Hudler to get Rob Blake.

Tell me how that makes us a better team now? Sundin isn't so much better than Hudler or Flip that he offsets how much better Kronwall is than Blake. And that's just looking at the roster RIGHT NOW. Consider that come the end of the year, Sundin and Blake are gone, and we now have two large holes in the roster.

Sorry...no deals should be made where we lose a top six forward or a top three defenseman unless we are getting one back that we are keeping long-term who would be an upgrade. Hossa is about the only situation that has a chance of happening, and I don't see Hossa happening.

[Sergeiwasmyfav 0]

I sincerely hope this trade never happens. Sundin may be an elite player, but I have honestly never been that impressed with him. Perhaps it's because I don't watch Toronto enough, and if I did see them more, I may think differently. But my gut reaction when I saw the threat was "Hell no!" and I have to stick with that. Don't do it Kenny!!

[dirac 0]

Just the fact that this came from the empty cranium of Pierre McGuire makes me say that this would be wrong, even on Xbox.

[akustyk 84]

just as a remainder for all ppl speaking of trade unfairness:

February 25, 2007 - St. Louis Blues trade Keith Tkachuk to the Atlanta Thrashers for Glen Metropolit, 2007 first round draft pick and 2007 3rd round draft pick, 2008 2nd round draft pick, and a conditional first-round draft pick in 2008 should Tkachuk re-sign with Atlanta during the 2007 off-season as an unrestricted free agent.

February 16, 2007 - Philadelphia Flyers trade Peter Forsberg to the Nashville Predators for Scottie Upshall, Ryan Parent, 2007 first round draft pick and 2007 3rd round draft pick.

now seriously... is renting Sundin not worth a top-tier developed player and a 1st round pick?

if anything you might situate him somewhere between Floppa and Weight, and that much

closer to Floppa, actually.

and Leafs are gonna get this if they decide to shop Sundin. it's not likely they're gonna

do this with Wings but some team will swallow the price and fetch Mats.

If you're concerned about the Wings having room to sign quality players than you should absolutely not want Kronwall moved. If this level of play keeps up, he's a steal for the money he's getting. It's the players that have the big contracts that aren't pulling their weight that need to be moved, not a guy that's pretty much getting to the point where he's underpaid already, and will be even moreso at the end of next season.

I get your point but I'll still restate mine - there's seasons of development and there's

seasons where you just go for the cup. Wings (read: Holland) have been extremely

cautious with their trades in salary cap era, trying to get back on track with own

prospects. the thing is they're ready to have their ultimate go for the grand prize.

and with competition being in similar situation and looking to bolster at trade

deadline Holland must face the decision whether to continue building this team or

take the risk of flushing assets for quality rental players. and I mean: quality not

some safe-solution like Bertuzzi or Calder whose cost was indeed moderate but so

was their playoff production (at best).

the thing is there are teams outside that are strong (and I don't mean regular

season strength because it means s* in the end) and will be sacrificing their future

for now. holding line by Holland would make Wings weaker compared to those

teams. and this Wings 2007-08 seem to be a capable team that can win the prize.

if this is the good moment to have a go - let's do it! simple like that.

just for remainder - Holland did shop Slava Kozlov for Dom couple of years ago.

those were different conditions but this is only to prove he was able to pull the

trigger when necessary. and I firmly believe he'll evaluate this team now and

if necessary go for an immediate help.

[up2here 41]

So, say we trade Kronwall and a first to get Sundin. Now we have a hole on defense. So we trade Filppula or Hudler to get Rob Blake.

Tell me how that makes us a better team now? Sundin isn't so much better than Hudler or Flip that he offsets how much better Kronwall is than Blake. And that's just looking at the roster RIGHT NOW. Consider that come the end of the year, Sundin and Blake are gone, and we now have two large holes in the roster.

Sorry...no deals should be made where we lose a top six forward or a top three defenseman unless we are getting one back that we are keeping long-term who would be an upgrade. Hossa is about the only situation that has a chance of happening, and I don't see Hossa happening.

Actually Sundin IS a whole lot better than Hudler and Flip right now.In a year maybe two he wont be but this is about winning the cup this year. Also it wouldnt be neccesary to give up Hudler or Flip to get another defenseman.

[Third Man In 2,091]

I think we may be losing sight of the ultimate goal,the Stanley Cup.Its not our goal to be a team that almost wins for 5 years. Having Sundin in our line-up does not guarantee a cup but no trade does that. It would however make us WAY more difficult to beat. Also consider the effects of losing Hank for the playoff run due to his chronic balky back. Having Sundin provides insurance against an injury. Losing Kronwall would suck for our defence but we actually have enough cap room to add a physical d-man as well.

I don't think anyone here's losing sight of the ultimate goal. Remember what kepts us from it last year (besides the Ducks)? It wasn't lack of forward scoring or presence--we lost two defencemen to injury. Losing Schneids and Kronner was much worse than the injuries to Calder and Bert. I don't see how trading a defenceman will get us the Cup.

[akustyk 84]

I don't think anyone here's losing sight of the ultimate goal. Remember what kepts us from it last year (besides the Ducks)? It wasn't lack of forward scoring or presence--we lost two defencemen to injury. Losing Schneids and Kronner was much worse than the injuries to Calder and Bert. I don't see how trading a defenceman will get us the Cup.

apples and oranges

we weren't shallow on defense last year. we just happened to lose two top D-men

in playoffs and this had to have an influence because that's 1/3 of regular defense

crops.

but imagine now Wings losing two top forwards, say Datsyuk and Homer.

we're basically left with Zetterberg and a couple of decent but not spectacular

players. and there's no chance in hell we go anywhere deeper than 2nd round.

Wings have a lot of success in this season because they play perfect as a team

and are able to force their game. but in playoffs they'll not be able to always play

their game and will also need players who can singlehandedly win games. there's

a lot of sense in trading one of our D-men for a quality forward.

[Opie 308]

The wings have already proven they can win without Z and Homer this year.

Flip, Jiri, Cleary, and Sammy have all proven they can score, the lines are building chemistry and instead of having a team with one line that produces and after that they are screwed, the wings have 4 or 5 different combos they can use for starting rosters. It may be the same people, but they realign them from first line to fourth.

Last years playoffs rested solely on the shoulders of D and Z (offensively speaking), with a little help from Lids, Lang, and Schneids.

Kronwall being traded would mean that not only do the wings already lack depth in NHL(playoff especially) ready D-men they would need to get a top 3 d-man now. That would be very costly at this point in time during the season.

So lets say for arguments sake that they make the following trade:

Kronwall/ first for Sundin,

Now they have to trade for Foote, Blake or another top 3 d-man

Flip or huds (If not both straight up, GM's will know the wings need D help), Prospect, 2nd rounder for Blake(Foote)

Now they are short on the wing. I have defended Sammy all year but he is not as good as either Flip or Huds. And those of you that think Sammy and Lilja will land this team what they need are kidding yourselves.

So now the wings have to trade for another winger, if not how are they any better than they are right now. Yes they have added talented veteran players, but at what cost. People thought this team was old before holy crap look out after this.

There is a salary cap now, you cannot go out and get rental players and rebuild the following year, every year. No team can afford that.

Depth at both positions would be the course I would like to see them take, unless like Eva and others have said, they can trade for a guy that they can sign long term.

Most of the people on here that are saying they don't care about next year they want a cup this year, will be saying the same thing next year regardless if the wings win the cup or not this year.

[Matt 1,049]

Again: The Red Wings will NOT trade Kronwall for a rental player.

Yes, the Wings could use another Top 6 forward -- that's obvious. But it will not come at the cost of Kronwall.

[12Newf 0]

kronwall is most definitely too high a price to pay for sundin as a rental. everyone else on that panel quickly points out that they dont agree with maguire and believe that sundin will fetch a few young roster players (such as upshall in the forsberg deal) and a couple of relatively high picks. tsn also has a segment where they discuss whether the matthias for bertuzzi trade will make GMs a little more weary to make deadline deals and it was a 50/50 split between the panelists.

[Opie 308]

Again: The Red Wings will NOT trade Kronwall for a rental player.

Yes, the Wings could use another Top 6 forward -- that's obvious. But it will not come at the cost of Kronwall.

Hey where have I heard that before, some where recently. OH yeah it was you about 15 posts ago.

In all seriousness, this guy is the future #2 behind Ralf, IF he is able to stay healthy!

In order for the wings to trade any of Huds, Flip, Kronwall I think it would have to be some one under contract for 2-3 years or some one that they can sign after the trade for 3-4 years.

Giving up Kronwall is giving up you best young D-man. People can talk until they are blue in the face about what Kindl will be, might be, can become.

But right now he is the best young D man, that is why he is the 3rd D-man on this team not Kindl, Ericsson, etc.

And even IF they traded Kronwall for Hossa and signed him to a 7 year deal, they would need to turn around before the ink dries and sign a top 3 d-man.

[Matt 1,049]

Hey where have I heard that before, some where recently. OH yeah it was you about 15 posts ago.

Some people are still not getting the point, apparently.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Does McGuire SERIOUSLY consider Michalek and Kesler as good as Kronwall? Nik has 4 more points than Kesler, 4 fewer than Michalek. But he's a very good two-way defenseman...while the other two are mediocre defensive forwards.

But the real question I'm sure is on the minds of posters here..if Kesler or Michalek and a 1st gets Sundin, does that mean the younger, more prolific Hudler can get him straight up?

Prove that statement? You're no more a Sharks expert than I am and statistically there's no basis for that comment.

I'm not big on Kesler but Michalak is a fantastic player.

6 foot 2, 225lbs and skates like the wind for a big guy. And he just turned 23. Kronner is one of the most injury plagued players in the league currently and is already 27 years old.

How do you get that he's a bad defensive player. I've watched him, he's a good defensive player. He's never been a minus player ever, not even in the postseason.

17 goals 2 years ago

26 goals, 66 points last year

16 goals so far this year

The Wings need a young, big sniper on the Wing and Michalak fits that perfectly. He also shows up in the playoffs.

I know we're not talking about a straight trade of Michalak for Kronner here but if that were available i'd do it in a heartbeat. With Kindl coming up? That's a no brainer. Kronner is a good you dman but Michalak is a good young forward. Depends on which one you think is more valuable or easier to replace. Michalek does make more money though. Still, he's a 2nd line scorer and could be a 1st liner with Datsyuk any day.

In case my argument isn't clear, what i'm saying is Michalek is a better player than Kronwall and the Sharks would be idiots to deal him.

As for the Kronner for Sundin, I still wouldn't do that is Kronner has tons of upside and I hate rental players even more than I hate the RFA offer sheet...and that's saying alot.

Edited January 23, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Kesler has size and speed, but he's not a scoring forward. The Leafs will need a guy capable of putting up the numbers in return...and that's Hudler. Michalek put up 66 points last year with THORNTON. You don't think Hudler could have EASILY done so in the same role?

Based on ice time, Hudler was on pace for 26-17-43 over Michalek's minutes last season. You don't think that turns into a MINIMUM of 35-40-75 if he's with Thornton/Cheechoo instead of spending most of his time with a combination of Draper/Maltby/Lang/Samuelsson/Franzen?

Oooook.

Oh please, Hudler can't hold Michalek's jock. You ever watch Michalek blow by people on the wing and get to the net. The guy is big, strong on his skates. I counted 3 times where Hudler fell to his arse last night getting bumped.

You make it sound like Michalek just sits there to be fed the puck from Big Joe. Michalek generates alot of chances with his own speed and size, things Huddles can't do.

Size-Michalek

Strength-Michalek

Speed-Michalek

Not even close

[Reds4Life 51]

but imagine now Wings losing two top forwards, say Datsyuk and Homer.

we're basically left with Zetterberg and a couple of decent but not spectacular

players. and there's no chance in hell we go anywhere deeper than 2nd round.

Imagine:

Ottawa loosing Heatley and Alfredsson

Pittsburgh without Crosby and Malkin

Ducks without Getzlaf and Perry

San Jose without Thornton and Michalek

.

.

.

Trading Kronwall for Sundin is just stupid. I really don't understand why would you even consider that.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Imagine:

Ottawa loosing Heatley and Alfredsson

Pittsburgh without Crosby and Malkin

Ducks without Getzlaf and Perry

San Jose without Thornton and Michalek

.

.

.

Trading Kronwall for Sundin is just stupid. I really don't understand why would you even consider that.

I agree I wouldn't do it but calling it stupid sounds stupid in itself.

Kronner aside, Sundin is still one of the best forwards in the game. It all depends on how you look at it.

Who would give us the best chance of winning a cup? Could we deal Kronner for Sundin and pick up a semi-rugged stay at home type like Stuart or Boynton for example?

We still have Lidstrom and Raffy to provide punch from the blueline and they take up 80% of all the PP time anyway. Now if you are counting on them for offense the only issue we're left with is physical play....hence why I suggest bringing in a tough, stay at home type.

What would it cost to get a Brad Stuart or Boynton? Definitely not a Flip or Hudler.

In a salary dump they may be had for prospects and/or a pick.

I still wouldn't do it because I don't like rental players but if my life depended upon winning the Cup THIS year, then i'd trade for Sundin.

[akustyk 84]

lets do this compared to: Cleary, Filipulla(sp) and Homer:

Ottawa loosing Heatley and Alfredsson

still have scoring and size behind. Spezza, Fisher, Vermette, Kelly...

Pittsburgh without Crosby and Malkin

tough call. they have some youth which may lack experience

but has tools to do the job. Malone, Armstrong, Christensen, Staal...

I'd pick Wings trio but those Pens guys are quite decent

Ducks without Getzlaf and Perry

that leaves Kunitz, Bertuzzi and Pahlsson. surprisingly, they look

quite weak here

San Jose without Thornton and Michalek

that leaves Pavelski, Marleau, Cheechoo, Carle... very good crop

of players.

I think you may have the point here. stripped of top 2 players all those teams

look significantly worse indeed. which actually proves how important it is to

head healthy into the playoffs.

Trading Kronwall for Sundin is just stupid. I really don't understand why would you even consider that.

because Sundin's return price will not be lower than this and you can't reasonably

expect us land Sundin for anything like Lilja or Samuelson. I mean... I do live

in a country where joints are entirey legal but I'd still have to take 3 of these to

think this way

why would Wings consider getting Sundin? because he brings a package that

is missing in current Wings roster. and it may be more important for a good

playoff run than Kronwall defensive skills. since you can't have it all you

have to pick the better option. and Kronwall > Sundin inequality here is not

so 100% clear to me. it's definitely worth considering to me. but yes, I'll

be perfectly happy if we keep Kronwall too.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

just as a remainder for all ppl speaking of trade unfairness:

now seriously... is renting Sundin not worth a top-tier developed player and a 1st round pick?

if anything you might situate him somewhere between Floppa and Weight, and that much

closer to Floppa, actually.

and Leafs are gonna get this if they decide to shop Sundin. it's not likely they're gonna

do this with Wings but some team will swallow the price and fetch Mats.

I get your point but I'll still restate mine - there's seasons of development and there's

seasons where you just go for the cup. Wings (read: Holland) have been extremely

cautious with their trades in salary cap era, trying to get back on track with own

prospects. the thing is they're ready to have their ultimate go for the grand prize.

and with competition being in similar situation and looking to bolster at trade

deadline Holland must face the decision whether to continue building this team or

take the risk of flushing assets for quality rental players. and I mean: quality not

some safe-solution like Bertuzzi or Calder whose cost was indeed moderate but so

was their playoff production (at best).

the thing is there are teams outside that are strong (and I don't mean regular

season strength because it means s* in the end) and will be sacrificing their future

for now. holding line by Holland would make Wings weaker compared to those

teams. and this Wings 2007-08 seem to be a capable team that can win the prize.

if this is the good moment to have a go - let's do it! simple like that.

just for remainder - Holland did shop Slava Kozlov for Dom couple of years ago.

those were different conditions but this is only to prove he was able to pull the

trigger when necessary. and I firmly believe he'll evaluate this team now and

if necessary go for an immediate help.

Fair enough, but I still don't like the idea of moving Kronwall. If you don't remember what happened last year, it was essentially a depleted defense in the end that cost the Wings the cup. Hell, last year they had the team in place, and probably would've had enough to put them over the top given that Kronwall and Schneider had been healthy the rest of the way (or even the final 3 games of the ANA series). Now you're talking about giving this Wings team every opportunity they can to win the prize when it looks already like they have the foundation in place to win it all this year. I can understand that, but how are you going to feel if the Wings are one of those other 15 teams that make the postseason and don't win it all? My point is that it may not take a couple rentals and a FA such as Foresberg to win it all. The fact of the matter is that it may take a Foresberg and a core D-man to put this team over the top (which won't cost the farm and would still give the Wings a solid chance to win it all).

My thought is instead of selling the farm why aren't the Wings more looking at adding a guy like Foresberg? If healthy, this guy could absolutely put the Wings over the top with secondary scoring, and will cost them nothing in return. If you want a guy like Sundin, then I'm ok dumping a 1st rounder and a decent offensive player in order to bring him in, but to overpay on not only 1 guy, but 2 is going to cost the team dearly in the future. You say you're ok with some bad seasons if Kenny pulled the trigger to win it all now, but that's easy to say when the Wings have been as good as they have for the last 16 years. Move too many guys, and you might be singing a different tune 3-4 years from now.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[Guest Agalloch]

lmao, not a chance. Kronwall has been better than Rafalski this season, and is breaking out. He's been one of the best defensemen in the league, actually. 20 points in his last 26 with a +18. We'd be downgrading by trading him for Sundin.

[Third Man In 2,091]

apples and oranges

we weren't shallow on defense last year. we just happened to lose two top D-men

in playoffs and this had to have an influence because that's 1/3 of regular defense

crops.

but imagine now Wings losing two top forwards, say Datsyuk and Homer.

we're basically left with Zetterberg and a couple of decent but not spectacular

players. and there's no chance in hell we go anywhere deeper than 2nd round.

Wings have a lot of success in this season because they play perfect as a team

and are able to force their game. but in playoffs they'll not be able to always play

their game and will also need players who can singlehandedly win games. there's

a lot of sense in trading one of our D-men for a quality forward.

I agree in a sense that it's apples and orange, but I think that weakens my argument in that losing a defencemen is worse. Most teams, Detroit included, have less depth at defence and hence can less afford to trade away that depth. The Wings have a much better chance of advance if Dats and Homer go down than, say, Rafalski and Kronners. Without Kronwall (and barring further trade), the Wings are even shorter on defence than they were last season, when they had Markov. And injury aside, I still don't see what is current hole that Sundin would fill that would compensate for the obvious one that trading Kronwall would introduce.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Third Man In

[akustyk 84]

Now you're talking about giving this Wings team every opportunity they can to win the prize when it looks already like they have the foundation in place to win it all this year.

I just like our forwards from last season more.

Bertuzzi and Lang is lazy and he sucks left some hole which

those youngsters fill only partially. Bert and Lang were big bodies

and skill packages and for them we have now Flip and Hudler

who are both not necessarily big and physical. nor experienced

and bringing as much leadership

I think this is where Wings need to look for improvement. and

since all other teams know this we can not expect to have free

lunch here but must expect a rip-off. the only aspect we might

have movable here is D-men and a valuable D-man who is not

100% untouchable has Kronwall on his back. as much as we hate

to see him go this may be the only way to buy improvement

for our 2nd line.

I can understand that, but how are you going to feel if the Wings are one of those other 15 teams that make the postseason and don't win it all? My point is that it may not take a couple rentals and a FA such as Foresberg to win it all. The fact of the matter is that it may take a Foresberg and a core D-man to put this team over the top (which won't cost the farm and would still give the Wings a solid chance to win it all).

that's right but there's the point where you have to consider taking risk.

you can go for another 3 Presidents Trophy or try winning the Stanley Cup.

for us fans the choice should be obvious. for GM's who count money...

tougher call but I believe with JLA undergoing those attendance problems

a Stanley Cup is much better choice.

we'll see what Holland does. I think he'll do the right thing here as he did

the year before. and before

My thought is instead of selling the farm why aren't the Wings more looking at adding a guy like Foresberg? If healthy, this guy could absolutely put the Wings over the top with secondary scoring, and will cost them nothing in return. If you want a guy like Sundin, then I'm ok dumping a 1st rounder and a decent offensive player in order to bring him in, but to overpay on not only 1 guy, but 2 is going to cost the team dearly in the future.

trade deadline is sellers market and prices go ridiculously high. you won't

get Sundin for 1st rounder (and a low 1st rounder in addition to that) and

a guy who is just decent. selling GM know perfectly that there's more

guys willing to drop some coins and will milk you all the way down from

valuable assets - or another GM who is more willing to pull the trigger.

if not Wings then some other team will plunge massive package for

rental Sundin. and this might as well be a team from Western Conference.

read: someone who Wings may face in playoffs.

my point is: this is a valid exchange. it's obviously risky for Wings but

may be worth trying. we were milked from draft picks and prospects

in 2002 but it worked. it doesn't have to be like that this time but if

it works...

[Reds4Life 51]

Do you understand Sundin would be only RENTAL player and that he would sign with Toronto after the season? So they would have Kronwall and Sundin back. We would have nothing. Maybe SC, maybe nothing. Holland is smart and I belive he will not overpay Sundin or whoever he feels our team need. I would offer them Hudler for Sundin straight at best. Definitely NOT Kronwall. Scoring is not our problem. You said imagine if... but that "works" for any team, as I tried to point out. We need physical dman much more than Sundin.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Would people be opposed to this deal

Filpulla + 2nd + meech/quincy

for sundin?

Id do it in a heartbeat.