The CBA and The Wings

[IceMunkee 15]

My friend and I had a discussion following the Friday night following the game. We discussed the Cap and the effects that it has had on the NHL and league. We were looking at the teams salary and discussed the ability to get talent from the bottom of the draft. My friend said that the CBA will not effect the powerhouse that is the Wings because the ability of the brass to draft well and low. He also stated that players want to play for a winning orginization and will continue to resign here for a discounted price. I agree with some points. I do believe there are some players that want to sign here for cheap because it is a good organization but I think the cup in 2002 was the one good example of this. Datsyuk could have demanded more on the market but not much more. Not last year, this year he could get 8.5-9. But eventually the league will be able to get the talent we would like. Eventually the league will even out with the Wings. The already started evening out with each other. As far as the drafting low but gaining high, again eventually that will have to subside. I mean I love the wings and want them to stay great but reality seems to be that eventually we will be a run of the mill team with some stars? What do you guys think?

[Rice 42]

The Wings will go down hill when Lidstrom is gone.

[Heaton 1]

The Wings will go down hill when Lidstrom is gone.

True, but I doubt it'll affect them making the playoffs, they just won't be as dominant all the time.

[lfd250 1]

wings will be fine, the Cap is suppose to go up every year. We will be able to sign the quality players as we go along. When Lids goes, that will just be money we can spend on the top D man at that time. Like you said people want to play for a great team. We sign out Stars and plug in with players that fill what we need. When their head gets too big (Feds) they leave because they think they are worth more. We pay top dollar for what the player should be. Drapper and Maltby = Checkers, not the millions to a goal scorer. We'll be ok. (As long as Toronoto is in the NHL, everyone will be ok.

[Konnan511 1,736]

wings will be fine, the Cap is suppose to go up every year. We will be able to sign the quality players as we go along. When Lids goes, that will just be money we can spend on the top D man at that time. Like you said people want to play for a great team. We sign out Stars and plug in with players that fill what we need. When their head gets too big (Feds) they leave because they think they are worth more. We pay top dollar for what the player should be. Drapper and Maltby = Checkers, not the millions to a goal scorer. We'll be ok. (As long as Toronoto is in the NHL, everyone will be ok.

You really need to get your facts straight...every die hard fan knows what happen to Feds. He was going through a hard time with his family and asked the organization to hold off on contract talks until he resolved the situation with his family and when he came back and said he wants to play for the Wings, management ended up lowballing him to the point were he would have to accept an offer that was truly ridiculous for a player of his caliber.

With that said, I don't think we should have acquired him at the deadline so don't think I have a man-crush on him haha.

But for the OP, we may not be able to splash the cash on players, but there is no limit to the amount of cash we can splash on scouts!

[Grateful Gadsby 10]

You really need to get your facts straight...every die hard fan knows what happen to Feds. He was going through a hard time with his family and asked the organization to hold off on contract talks until he resolved the situation with his family and when he came back and said he wants to play for the Wings, management ended up lowballing him to the point were he would have to accept an offer that was truly ridiculous for a player of his caliber.

With that said, I don't think we should have acquired him at the deadline so don't think I have a man-crush on him haha.

But for the OP, we may not be able to splash the cash on players, but there is no limit to the amount of cash we can splash on scouts!

At the risk of this thread spiraling off into yet another "Why Fedorov Left" disquisition, can I ask if you have a link to a story/report about these "facts" that "every" die hard fan "knows"? I don't seem to recall the Wings low-balling Federov with a "ridiculous" offer at all. I thought Holland modified his offer when he - correctly - saw the economic/CBA landscape shifting, but Fedorov decided to leave and accept an offer that was pretty much the same as Holland's last one, but from a different team (Anaheim).

If you can't back up your assertion with facts of your own, you have zero business lecturing others about getting their facts straight.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Whether the cap was imposed or not, Lidstrom leaving the Wings is going to be a huge hit. As for the cap itself, Im not too concerned. Buffalo, Atanta, and Nashville are just a few teams that I can think of off the top of my head that have a self-imposed salary cap. The more the cap rises, the more teams will fall back and not be able spend to the max due to ownership - although I dont think well see the cap rise much beyond 60M.

Also, I dont think Lidstrom leaving is going to have the same effect on the Wings as some seem to think it will. We arent going to drop like rocks. Detroit is nearly the only team in the league who has a system in place that has changed little over the last decade. New Jersey is the only similar case, and they, like us, have remained competitive all these years. As long as we dont have to make any major overhauls to the roster in a short period of time, we should be able to maintain a roster that has a few highlight defenseman that can run our system. By the time Lidstrom leaves, Rafalski and Kronwall should be able to run the system on their own. Like Lidstrom? Of course not. But in my opinion, with Lidstrom as our MVP, our system is the runner up.

Edited March 30, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Nev 1,085]

The Wings will go down hill when Lidstrom is gone.

True - but as others have said, they will still be a playoff team.

People were predicting the imminent demise of the Wings 5 years ago - those of us who knew what we were doing knew that Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall were waiting in the wings to take over.

As Holland himself has pointed out, the Wings are consitently good for the same reason the Patriots and Colts are consistently good

- they draft well in the lower rounds, more specifically drafting players that fit their system (Holland - "we draft skill", hence why this "skinny little 17 year old kid that nobody could get the puck off" gets picked up in the 7th round and becomes a 40 goal scorer with an A which will one day be a C

- They pay to keep their top players (Lidstrom, Dats)

- They don't overpay for their mid-range players (are you listening Matt Millen?) and are prepared to let them walk if they get offered stupid money

- They have good scouting (see point 1, and the one below)

- They are able to pick up other teams cast-offs that they think are able to do a job for them within their system (check out how many undrafted FAs are starters on the Colts)

- Oh, and we have good coaching

As long as we have Holland, Nill, Illitch and Babock we wil be competetive.

[Jamaica Jon 1]

As long as we have Holland, Nill, Illitch and Babock we wil be competetive.

Absolutely correct. As much as everyone hates Holland... he knows what he is doing. People said he wouldn't amount to s*** with a Salary Cap, but he is definitely one of, if not THE most Cap-savvy GM in hockey. As long as we have Holland, Nill, and eventually guys like Yzerman and other Holland/Nill protégé then I think we'll be fine. Obviously it would be silly to expect the dominance to continue forever, but with our management we have a good chance to at least be competitive for a verrrry long time. No cellar dwelling.

Illitch and Babcock are great too.

[Swede40 0]

True - but as others have said, they will still be a playoff team.

People were predicting the imminent demise of the Wings 5 years ago - those of us who knew what we were doing knew that Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall were waiting in the wings to take over.

As Holland himself has pointed out, the Wings are consitently good for the same reason the Patriots and Colts are consistently good

- they draft well in the lower rounds, more specifically drafting players that fit their system (Holland - "we draft skill", hence why this "skinny little 17 year old kid that nobody could get the puck off" gets picked up in the 7th round and becomes a 40 goal scorer with an A which will one day be a C

- They pay to keep their top players (Lidstrom, Dats)

- They don't overpay for their mid-range players (are you listening Matt Millen?) and are prepared to let them walk if they get offered stupid money

- They have good scouting (see point 1, and the one below)

- They are able to pick up other teams cast-offs that they think are able to do a job for them within their system (check out how many undrafted FAs are starters on the Colts)

- Oh, and we have good coaching

As long as we have Holland, Nill, Illitch and Babock we wil be competetive.

Pretty much all the starters that the Colts have that they didn't draft were drafted by other teams and were cut or the Colts signed them as Free agents after leaving their previous teams. I don't recall any starters that were undrafted free agents.

[Jamaica Jon 1]

Pretty much all the starters that the Colts have that they didn't draft were drafted by other teams and were cut or the Colts signed them as Free agents after leaving their previous teams. I don't recall any starters that were undrafted free agents.

I think that's what he meant. Non-Colts-Drafted FAs*

[CenterIce 83]

wings will be fine, the Cap is suppose to go up every year.

Not quite. It is tied to revenue, so if the league loses money one year, the cap could go down.

[Konnan511 1,736]

At the risk of this thread spiraling off into yet another "Why Fedorov Left" disquisition, can I ask if you have a link to a story/report about these "facts" that "every" die hard fan "knows"? I don't seem to recall the Wings low-balling Federov with a "ridiculous" offer at all. I thought Holland modified his offer when he - correctly - saw the economic/CBA landscape shifting, but Fedorov decided to leave and accept an offer that was pretty much the same as Holland's last one, but from a different team (Anaheim).

If you can't back up your assertion with facts of your own, you have zero business lecturing others about getting their facts straight.

It's not a wily assertion or my opinion, it's a fact. Just because I don't produce evidence doesn't mean otherwise if I can recall it from the top of my head, so I'm sorry I'm a die-hard fan and not some band wagoner or fan boy. But just to please you here is my evidence:

"Detroit General Manager Ken Holland was asked if he felt Fedorov resented Yzerman's stature.

''There's no doubt, in this market, this is Steve Yzerman's town,'' Holland said. ''Anybody else on that team has to take a bit of a back seat to Steve in the perception of the media and the fans, and Steve Yzerman has earned that honor, that respect.''

Holland said he offered Fedorov, 33, $50 million for five seasons last November. But Fedorov was changing agents and divorcing his wife, Anna Kournikova, the tennis player. When he did not accept the offer quickly, it was reduced to $40 million and four seasons.

By June, the offer dwindled to four years at $32 million. ''Times changed,'' Holland said."

The offer was reduced by a year, then it was reduced by 8 million, which was 20% less. I consider 20% less money a significantly lower price. I can even say that instead of a guaranteed 50 Mil, he was offered 32 mil which is a 1/3 less.

So Federov WAS going through issues and unless you produce evidence or facts it was because "Holland modified his offer when he - correctly - saw the economic/CBA landscape shifting", don't lecture me about "lecturing" other people if you are just as guilty as me.

I'm sorry OP, i had to defend myself. But more importantly:

I'm not 100% certain, but can we pay any price we want for coaches and scouts and not have that count against our cap in any way? Because if it doesn't, then we'll be in good to great shape as long as we have a detrmined owner!

Edited March 30, 2008 by Konnan511

[CenterIce 83]

You really need to get your facts straight...every die hard fan knows what happen to Feds. He was going through a hard time with his family and asked the organization to hold off on contract talks until he resolved the situation with his family and when he came back and said he wants to play for the Wings, management ended up lowballing him to the point were he would have to accept an offer that was truly ridiculous for a player of his caliber.

With that said, I don't think we should have acquired him at the deadline so don't think I have a man-crush on him haha.

But for the OP, we may not be able to splash the cash on players, but there is no limit to the amount of cash we can splash on scouts!

I don't know about this, but Anaheim offered him somethings Detroit was never going to do. The first two years were guaranteed (the second year was the lockout), and they gave him a clause where he could get out of the contract twice, before it was up. Detroit wasn't going to give him that much.

[stevie for president 42]

It's not a wily assertion or my opinion, it's a fact. Just because I don't produce evidence doesn't mean otherwise if I can recall it from the top of my head, so I'm sorry I'm a die-hard fan and not some band wagoner or fan boy. But just to please you here is my evidence:

"Detroit General Manager Ken Holland was asked if he felt Fedorov resented Yzerman's stature.

''There's no doubt, in this market, this is Steve Yzerman's town,'' Holland said. ''Anybody else on that team has to take a bit of a back seat to Steve in the perception of the media and the fans, and Steve Yzerman has earned that honor, that respect.''

Holland said he offered Fedorov, 33, $50 million for five seasons last November. But Fedorov was changing agents and divorcing his wife, Anna Kournikova, the tennis player. When he did not accept the offer quickly, it was reduced to $40 million and four seasons.

By June, the offer dwindled to four years at $32 million. ''Times changed,'' Holland said."

The offer was reduced by a year, then it was reduced by 8 million, which was 20% less. I consider 20% less money a significantly lower price. I can even say that instead of a guaranteed 50 Mil, he was offered 32 mil which is a 1/3 less.

So Federov WAS going through issues and unless you produce evidence or facts it was because "Holland modified his offer when he - correctly - saw the economic/CBA landscape shifting", don't lecture me about "lecturing" other people if you are just as guilty as me.

I'm sorry OP, i had to defend myself. But more importantly:

I'm not 100% certain, but can we pay any price we want for coaches and scouts and not have that count against our cap in any way? Because if it doesn't, then we'll be in good to great shape as long as we have a detrmined owner!

either we cant afford him and if he stayed even at 8 million - the 24% roll back, thats 6.08 million. think of how different this team would look if he signed the 4 year $32 million contract!

also there was an article posted on here a couple months ago (it was in russian but someone translated it) and it confirms that de was upset that detroit kept lowering his offer.

[Grateful Gadsby 10]

It's not a wily assertion or my opinion, it's a fact. Just because I don't produce evidence doesn't mean otherwise if I can recall it from the top of my head, so I'm sorry I'm a die-hard fan and not some band wagoner or fan boy. But just to please you here is my evidence:

"Detroit General Manager Ken Holland was asked if he felt Fedorov resented Yzerman's stature.

''There's no doubt, in this market, this is Steve Yzerman's town,'' Holland said. ''Anybody else on that team has to take a bit of a back seat to Steve in the perception of the media and the fans, and Steve Yzerman has earned that honor, that respect.''

Holland said he offered Fedorov, 33, $50 million for five seasons last November. But Fedorov was changing agents and divorcing his wife, Anna Kournikova, the tennis player. When he did not accept the offer quickly, it was reduced to $40 million and four seasons.

By June, the offer dwindled to four years at $32 million. ''Times changed,'' Holland said."

The offer was reduced by a year, then it was reduced by 8 million, which was 20% less. I consider 20% less money a significantly lower price. I can even say that instead of a guaranteed 50 Mil, he was offered 32 mil which is a 1/3 less.

So Federov WAS going through issues and unless you produce evidence or facts it was because "Holland modified his offer when he - correctly - saw the economic/CBA landscape shifting", don't lecture me about "lecturing" other people if you are just as guilty as me.

Swing and a miss, but thanks for offering evidence in support of my recollection, not yours. I said Holland modified his offer when he sensed the economic landscape had shifted, which you explicitly concede by offering his helpful quote that "Times changed." You said Holland's final offer was a "lowball ... that was truly ridiculous for a player of [Fedorov's] caliber," but offer nothing to support this. In fact, in terms of dollars, when compared to the offer Fedorov accepted from Anaheim, Holland's final offer was neither a lowball nor "ridiculous," but rather was in the ballpark as to his fair value at that time. Moreover, you can make a compelling case that Anaheim's contract was actually in excess of fair value for a player of Fedorov's "caliber," which is probably why Anaheim moved him.

[Jamaica Jon 1]

The offer was reduced by a year, then it was reduced by 8 million, which was 20% less. I consider 20% less money a significantly lower price. I can even say that instead of a guaranteed 50 Mil, he was offered 32 mil which is a 1/3 less.

I don't have an opinion on Sergei leaving. Honestly I really don't recall for sure why he left.

But I did look up that deal he signed with Anaheim and it was $40M for 5 years. Which turns out to be $8M/year on average. Our offer of $32M for 4 years is also $8M/year on average. Obviously that extra year is important to an aging player, and there are other contract factors involved... but considering the similar annual salaries, I really don't think he was "lowballed"... And also, if he was so angry about being "lowballed", then why did he sign for a similar average annual salary?

Here's the link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2003/0719/1582918.html

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't have an opinion on Sergei leaving. Honestly I really don't recall for sure why he left.

But I did look up that deal he signed with Anaheim and it was $40M for 5 years. Which turns out to be $8M/year on average. Our offer of $32M for 4 years is also $8M/year on average. Obviously that extra year is important to an aging player, and there are other contract factors involved... but considering the similar annual salaries, I really don't think he was "lowballed"... And also, if he was so angry about being "lowballed", then why did he sign for a similar average annual salary?

Here's the link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2003/0719/1582918.html

Fedorov wasn't lowballed. That's not what he was angry about. But you have to consider this...Fedorov was originally offered a 5-year deal worth 10m annually. He was interested in this deal, but asked for a little time to sort out his personal life. That is a perfectly reasonable request. By the time Fedorov was ready to sign a deal, the offer had dwindled to a 4-year, $40m and then $32m contract. Realistically, Fedorov probably would have signed for $32m had it been a 5-year deal. None of the offers to Fedorov were rejected based on the dollar figure; two were pulled by Holland and one was rejected for length. Had Holland turned around and said 'OK, instead of $32m for four years, here's $32m for five years' Fedorov likely would have signed it. After rollback, that would have been about 4.9m...which would have easily fit in what the actual roster looked like, as we wouldn't have seen a trade for Lang (3.8m) and Pavel Datsyuk wouldn't have been the No.1 center, and would have seen a salary closer to $3m than $4m.

Anyone who claims Fedorov left for money, or because of Yzerman's shadow, or for any reason other than the length of the deal...is pretty much making up what they think happened rather than stating what ACTUALLY happened.

[VM1138 1,921]

I really don't see why the Wings will be terrible when Lidstrom leaves. There is no replacing Lidstrom, but no other team has a defenseman as good as him. So when he's gone it's not like we'll be worse than the other teams. Maybe it'll be more even, but with the cap going up and intelligent leadership in the organization, I have no doubt a team led by Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart (maybe), Ericcson, Filpulla, Cleary, and the stars that we will sign with the added cap space that the Wings smartly saved up will be a dominant team long after Lidstrom is gone.

[wingedwheeler12 0]

I think the team will be ready by the time lidstrom is ready to leave/ retire. Its not like a huge blow.. we do have defenseman that could take it over. yes, are they big skates to fill, I think so. but I have to agree that the team will be alright even if nick is not the captain.

we are going to be fine if the team keeps producing, if you look at our prospects we are the best set according to many of the hockey papers.. i believe the hocke y news had it in an article not too long ago. so i am not worried, im looking forward to the future, and id just have to say, take time wait for the hockey puck to drop because you wont know from one season to the next.

go wings!

[lomekian 201]

I think the wings will be fine. The cap rising is in our favour. We seem to have a very settled nucleus of players and staff, and have become a very attractive option to Free Agents - examples of Cheli & Hasek extending hteir careers, and cleary, samuelson and even lilja re-invigorating theirs stands us in good stead. We draft well, trade pretty well, and won't be held to ransom.

When Osgood, Hasek, Lidsm, Cheli and dare i say it drake, drapes and malts have gone in the next 2 or 3 the team won't be as strong, but we have some decent prospects lined up for some of those roles, and can strengthen through FA. I think we'll be good for another 5 years of playoffs at the worst.

As for Feds - he was screwed around a bit, but it was probably for the best (unless we could have traded him). The CBA would have made the original contract offer difficult to bear, and there's no way he'd say $32m for 4 years, make it $32m for 5. That's not plausible! As it happened his play has dropped off sufficiently to make the bullit of his contract a good one to dodge in all fairness. Another example of Kenny Gambling, and its turned out ok in the end. At the time I wouldn't ahve done it, but there's a reason he's GM and me and everyone else on here isn't!

[Booster313 138]

I think that the Wings will remain competitive under the current CBA. The current core team can contend for the cup at least the next three years and given the amount of teams that make the playoffs I would venture to say that we will easily make the playoffs for the next 10 years. I believe the Wings will just restock and reload. As long as we have an owner like Mike Ilitch the Red Wings will win.