East vs. West Mentality

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Pronger had a horrendous season. His worst year since Hartford. He was nowhere near the top group of defensemen THIS SEASON.

His name and what he has achieved over his career don't change that; otherwise Hasek would have been a Vezina finalist.

But this season, Pronger wasn't even top two on his team.

Schneider? Please. He's a Gonchar clone - a forward playing defense. Dude has zero awareness and backcheck ability in his own zone. The step up from Schneids to Rafalski was monumental for us this season.

It speaks volumes about Pronger's abilities when he could put up 43 pts in 73 games and be considered a disappointment. He's an asshat, but he's still a fantastic player. And way better than Schneider - including last year.

Not that that's going to stop you from arguing to the contrary.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Probert 5 For Fighting

[VM1138 1,921]

This is a little ridiculous. Anaheim and Detroit have great defensemen to sign. Pittsburgh is obviously weak on defense, and their offense is about to fall apart. Anyone in their shoes would try to salvage what little they have going for them (offense) and then improve the defense once they stabilize up front. It's not like there's a whole lot of defensive options out there. Aside from Rafalski, Zubov, Nieds and Lidstrom, there's really no one in the league even close. Maybe someday Phaneuf will get there, but not yet.

EDIT: Woops, forget King Asshat, Pronger. I begrudgingly admit he's good.

Edited June 15, 2008 by VM1138

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Yeah, and Detroit would be doing the exact same thing if they were in Pitt's situation.

Detroit and Anaheim boast the 3 best defensemen in the league. It's a crazy small sample size. No other teams have that luxury. There is no East vs West mentality. It's a "wow, Detroit and Anaheim are really freaking good and have an unfair advantage on the backend" mentality.

But since we seem to be heading towards criticizing Pitt's defense, cut them some slack. Both Whitney and Letang(who we never got to see due to injury) are fantastic young defensemen whom they can build around in the coming years.

Your argument might hold water if Pittsberg didn't make a retardedly bloated trade at the deadline for Hossa. Sadly, your supposition that Hossa's release would be foolish because they already have his talent doesn't float when they chose to give up all those prospects/players/and a pick in a deep defensive draft. They chose to get another offensive player at the deadline when there were good defensive trades to be made. Gill is terrible in his own end, and regardless of what the HockeyNews says- he was out there for most of the goals.

Pitts wasn't pigeon-holed into a defense last philosophy, it was a choice. They drafted their own players. They structured their own team. They hired their own coaches. They live with the consequences- good or bad. No one forced them into this situation.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Your argument might hold water if Pittsberg didn't make a retardedly bloated trade at the deadline for Hossa. Sadly, your supposition that Hossa's release would be foolish because they already have his talent doesn't float when they chose to give up all those prospects/players/and a pick in a deep defensive draft. They chose to get another offensive player at the deadline when there were good defensive trades to be made. Gill is terrible in his own end, and regardless of what the HockeyNews says- he was out there for most of the goals.

Pitts wasn't pigeon-holed into a defense last philosophy, it was a choice. They drafted their own players. They structured their own team. They hired their own coaches. They live with the consequences- good or bad. No one forced them into this situation.

Sadly, your reading comprehension is a bit off since I never said they'd be foolish to let go of Hossa. When did I insinuate anything close to that? The reality is, retaining Hossa is a far better business decision than going after defensemen in a weak free agency year. You seem to be implying that I pity the decisions Pittsburgh made. I'm completely baffled as to WTF you are talking about. The OP suggested Pittsburgh wasn't making the right moves by spending on money on their elite forwards. I say that's the best decision they could make.

Defense last? They've picked Ryan Whitney and Kris Letang in the first round. Alex Goligoski, Brian Strait, and Carl Sneep are all great young defensemen that top their prospect list that'll move up eventually. The consequences of their actions have reaped them all the benefits short of winning the Cup - two years removed from the bottom of the league. Pittsburgh will be fine, and that's their "situation"

[Shaman 713]

Sadly, your reading comprehension is a bit off since I never said they'd be foolish to let go of Hossa. When did I insinuate anything close to that? The reality is, retaining Hossa is a far better business decision than going after defensemen in a weak free agency year. You seem to be implying that I pity the decisions Pittsburgh made. I'm completely baffled as to WTF you are talking about. The OP suggested Pittsburgh wasn't making the right moves by spending on money on their elite forwards. I say that's the best decision they could make.

Defense last? They've picked Ryan Whitney and Kris Letang in the first round. Alex Goligoski, Brian Strait, and Carl Sneep are all great young defensemen that top their prospect list that'll move up eventually. The consequences of their actions have reaped them all the benefits short of winning the Cup - two years removed from the bottom of the league. Pittsburgh will be fine, and that's their "situation"

Heres the problem with your logic: If there prospects are as good as you say they are, when free agency come they will leave, as has been pointed out in other posts, great defensemen are at a premium, and with Malkin going to be atleast an 8.5 cap hit, and MAF looking for big bucks, they wont be able to afford 6 good defensement.

[Bluedevils_13 0]

Pittsburgh should save the Hossa money and spend it on some one like Wade Redden. He wasn't great this year, but he would make a noticeable difference for the team.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Sadly, your reading comprehension is a bit off since I never said they'd be foolish to let go of Hossa. When did I insinuate anything close to that? The reality is, retaining Hossa is a far better business decision than going after defensemen in a weak free agency year. You seem to be implying that I pity the decisions Pittsburgh made. I'm completely baffled as to WTF you are talking about. The OP suggested Pittsburgh wasn't making the right moves by spending on money on their elite forwards. I say that's the best decision they could make.

Defense last? They've picked Ryan Whitney and Kris Letang in the first round. Alex Goligoski, Brian Strait, and Carl Sneep are all great young defensemen that top their prospect list that'll move up eventually. The consequences of their actions have reaped them all the benefits short of winning the Cup - two years removed from the bottom of the league. Pittsburgh will be fine, and that's their "situation"

Sure champ. You stated that there are only so many impact defensemen out there- the Lids, Neids, Prongers, etc. And implied that based on that fact Pittsburgh was better off keeping the forwards they have now then go another route. Don't get all read between the effing lines with me. If your opinion on the situation was vague then perhaps you should work on your writing skills while I brush up my reading comprehension? You can try stating your case so as to not confuse little old me and I'll try and understand your hockey analysis as best as I can.

And yeah- defense last. Based on their drafting they've put way more emphasis on forwards and hey- they traded up to get Fluerry 1st overall. So, if forwards and goaltending sat higher on their draft/acquisition priority list then what, pray tell, sat on the bottom if not defense?

The fact remains that I won't be impressed with Pittsburgh's meteoric rise until they've managed to stick around at the top and remain a competitive team for the next 5 or more years. Their management made a big statement at this year's deadline- and it certainly wasn't one of long-term stability. Hossa better be retained or they really did sell the farm for some magic beans.

Let's see how they handle their UFA and RFA's over the next summer before predicting such a sunny future for this team. Best of luck to them- but they've got a pretty tough managerial situation on their hands.

[Guest Crymson]

To clarify, I meant Jokinen AND Horton for Malkin (plus the 2009 florida 1st rounder)

OR

Jokinen AND Bouwmeester for Malkin

So, let me get this straight:

Florida's franchise player (one of the premiere power forwards in the league and a complete bargain to boot) and one of the best young up-and-coming power forwards in the league and a high first-round draft pick in an extremely deep draft year in exchange for a player who is not signed past next year and who completely choked when it counted most,

OR

Florida's franchise player (one of the premiere power forwards in the league and a complete bargain to boot) and one of the best defensemen in the league (who also led all NHL players in TOI last season and is still young) and a high first-round draft pick in an extremely deep draft year in exchange for a young fellow who is not signed past next year and completely choked when it counted most.

I think both of these trades are wildly implausible for Florida. The first trade would see the Panthers bring in Malkin whilst simultaneously wiping their roster of anyone who could score behind him or set him up. The second trade see the Panthers hamstring their defense in order to bring in Malkin---and in any event, the Panthers have nobody capable of setting him up to begin with. Further, by both options the Panthers would be losing quite a high draft pick in a very good draft. In all, this trade would see the Panthers devastate one area of their game in order to become a one-man show.

Not happening.

[Guest Crymson]

Pittsburgh should save the Hossa money and spend it on some one like Wade Redden. He wasn't great this year, but he would make a noticeable difference for the team.

Wade Redden did quite well this year.

[stevie for president 42]

They cleary want to go in the offensive direction. Theyve spent years drafting forwards. Hell, they just traded a lot to get hossa. you dont just all of the sudden say hey, you know what, lets change our mind, lets waste all of our investments, and lets go in the defensive direction. I think both the rangers and the penguins showed that you dont need stellar defensemen, you need stellar team defense. if your forwards are responsible and your defense is responsible, and you limit mistakes, but have fleury there to back you up when you do make mistakes, i think youll be alright.

This reminds me a lot of the tampa bay situation with their big three, but if the penguins spend closer to the cap i think theyll be fine. the cap is supposed to go to 56 mil. if theyre willing to spend the money i think they can take the east again

[Glubki 17]

Wade Redden did quite well this year.

Redden hasn't been the same player since he lost his mother to cancer 2 years ago - a change of scenery would probably do him some good.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

If your opinion on the situation was vague then perhaps you should work on your writing skills while I brush up my reading comprehension?

I've been clear and concise. You seem to be insisting on chafing the old taint, though. Might I recommend investing in Tampax? It'll stop all the bleeding you're doing.

Sure champ. You stated that there are only so many impact defensemen out there- the Lids, Neids, Prongers, etc. And implied that based on that fact Pittsburgh was better off keeping the forwards they have now then go another route

Sure thing, "sport." Unfortunately, your preconceived implication is incorrect. So since I mentioned that there's only a few elite defensemen out there, I'm implying Pitt has little interest in bolstering its defense? f*** me in the ozarks, every team not named Detroit or Anaheim is in trouble.

And yeah- defense last. Based on their drafting they've put way more emphasis on forwards and hey- they traded up to get Fluerry 1st overall. So, if forwards and goaltending sat higher on their draft/acquisition priority list then what, pray tell, sat on the bottom if not defense?

Let me hold your hand through this one, "kiddo.."

Ryan Whitney - 1st rounder

Malkin, Crosby, Stall - 1st rounders

Fleury - 1st rounder

Beyond the 1st round(the draft does extend beyond one round, "champ") - most of their top prospects are defensemen.

There is no discernable "defense-last philosophy" on display here. Picking guys like Malkin, Crosby, and Stall were no brainers, and they nabbed a top-notch defenseman in the 1st round and beyond as well. The notion that a team loaded at forward is neglecting other aspects of their team is faulty logic. Yeah, they don't have a Lidstrom or Neidermayer, but WTF does? They have a good, young stable of defensemen - ergo, they're not as "defense-last" as you're assuming.

The fact remains that I won't be impressed with Pittsburgh's meteoric rise until they've managed to stick around at the top and remain a competitive team for the next 5 or more years. Their management made a big statement at this year's deadline- and it certainly wasn't one of long-term stability. Hossa better be retained or they really did sell the farm for some magic beans.

Let's see how they handle their UFA and RFA's over the next summer before predicting such a sunny future for this team. Best of luck to them- but they've got a pretty tough managerial situation on their hands.

Well damn. Why didn't you just say this right off the bat? I'd have mostly agreed with you. I'm not suggesting everything is all crabcakes and football up in Pittsburgh, but they're better off than the OP is suggesting. And the "East West mentality" is completely transparent, which was the entire point of all this.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Let me hold your hand through this one, "kiddo.."

Ryan Whitney - 1st rounder

Malkin, Crosby, Stall - 1st rounders

Fleury - 1st rounder

Beyond the 1st round(the draft does extend beyond one round, "champ") - most of their top prospects are defensemen.

There is no discernable "defense-last philosophy" on display here. Picking guys like Malkin, Crosby, and Stall were no brainers, and they nabbed a top-notch defenseman in the 1st round and beyond as well. The notion that a team loaded at forward is neglecting other aspects of their team is faulty logic. Yeah, they don't have a Lidstrom or Neidermayer, but WTF does? They have a good, young stable of defensemen - ergo, they're not as "defense-last" as you're assuming.

We both know that the years those players were picked there were lots of high-quality defensive options too. Whitney was a 5th(?) overall, with Malkin, Staal and Crosby being 1st or 2nd overalls. Fluerry was 1st overall. Aside from being the lowest pick of those 5, Whitney is also the oldest one.

I never said there wasn't defensive drafting in Pitts, just that they put the priority on drafting offense. The numbers back me up too. The year Fluerry was drafted 1st, Phanuef- the best young defenseman in the league and an elite d-man, was drafted 9th. They could of taken him.

Let's go through their first 3 picks in each draft since 02:

2002:

1st: D-man (5th)

2nd: D-man (35th)

3rd: Forward (69th)

2003:

1st: Goalie (1st)

2nd: Forward (31st)

3rd: Forward (70th)

2004:

1st: Forward (2nd)

2nd: Forward (31st)

2nd: D-man (61st)

3rd: Forward (67th)

3rd: Forward (85th)

4th: Forward (99th - first pick of the 4th)

2005:

1st: Forward (1st)

2nd: D-man (61st - last pick of the 2nd)

3rd: D-man (62nd)

2006:

1st: Forward (2nd - not a deep defensive draft after the 1st pick though, I'll give you that)

2nd: D-man (32nd)

3rd: D-man (65th)

2007:

1st: Forward (20th)

2nd: Forward (51st)

3rd: D-man (78th)

3rd: Forward (80th)

Obviously they still draft defensemen- I never claimed they hadn't drafted a defenseman before! But damn- they definitely prefer to spend their valuable picks on forwards from 2003 onwards.

Well damn. Why didn't you just say this right off the bat? I'd have mostly agreed with you. I'm not suggesting everything is all crabcakes and football up in Pittsburgh, but they're better off than the OP is suggesting. And the "East West mentality" is completely transparent, which was the entire point of all this.

Agreed. Let's leave the hate-filled posts behind us.

[egroen 384]

...but they're better off than the OP is suggesting. And the "East West mentality" is completely transparent, which was the entire point of all this.

Pittsburgh will be fine for a couple years (because they will continue to have talented, cheap prospects to play), but if they are saddled w/ over $25 million to 3 forwards with no-trade clauses... this will be a struggling team.

I was not trying to be "sneaky" with the OP - maybe I am out of line, but I think the East values offense more than defense, unlike the West. The West has won the past two Stanley Cups in a decicive manner and has a significant advantage in regular season games played vs. the East over the past 5 years.

Edited June 16, 2008 by egroen

[YoungGuns1340 1]

So, let me get this straight:

Florida's franchise player (one of the premiere power forwards in the league and a complete bargain to boot) and one of the best young up-and-coming power forwards in the league and a high first-round draft pick in an extremely deep draft year in exchange for a player who is not signed past next year and who completely choked when it counted most,

OR

Florida's franchise player (one of the premiere power forwards in the league and a complete bargain to boot) and one of the best defensemen in the league (who also led all NHL players in TOI last season and is still young) and a high first-round draft pick in an extremely deep draft year in exchange for a young fellow who is not signed past next year and completely choked when it counted most.

I think both of these trades are wildly implausible for Florida. The first trade would see the Panthers bring in Malkin whilst simultaneously wiping their roster of anyone who could score behind him or set him up. The second trade see the Panthers hamstring their defense in order to bring in Malkin---and in any event, the Panthers have nobody capable of setting him up to begin with. Further, by both options the Panthers would be losing quite a high draft pick in a very good draft. In all, this trade would see the Panthers devastate one area of their game in order to become a one-man show.

Not happening.

1. 2009 is not as deep a draft year as 2008

2. If you trade for Bouwmeester you dont get a pick. Bouwmeester is also a RFA this year. If hes traded to Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh would be subject to offersheets for him. That lessens his value in a hypothetical trade that would likely be post-July 1st.

3. JOKINEN HAS BEEN ON THE BLOCK FOR MONTHS. Go talk to fans of Florida. Martin isnt a fan of Jokinen. And he recently said right after his team didnt make the playoffs that "no one on his roster was safe."

4. Malkin can be signed JULY 1ST. They dont have to wait around to sign him once he can be subjected to offersheets

5. What Malkin could do for a non-excitable Florida fanbase is what a LOT of GMs consider. More fans would come out just to see him than anyone else, and he and Horton could make an unstoppable pair, which would put more money in Huziengas pockets, which is more motivation for trades than anyone on here likes to think.

IF anyone on here thinks its not going to take that to get Malkin out of Pittsburgh, check your head. Hes a 22 year old Hart nominee who is on his way to a complete game in every aspect. He could be signed by Florida literally to a 10 year deal where they have the offensive pieces to work around him.

Edited June 16, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Systemfel 33]

1. 2009 is not as deep a draft year as 2008

Isn't 2009 supposed to be deeper? The deepest since '03?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Isn't 2009 supposed to be deeper? The deepest since '03?

You know, now that I think of it. Youre right. My mistake. Floridas likely going to have a high draft pick in 2009.