Does the Instigator Rule Really Prevent Fighting?

[Hank 0]

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/sto...2e-f9bc43a5d9ce

Come on now, guys. Does anyone truly believe that any NHL enforcer worth his salt would let someone injure one of his teammates and refuse to exact revenge, simply because it would give the other team a power play?

If that is the case, then these tough guys need to be turning in their man cards.

Hockey has been about toughness from Day 1. And that doesn't mean dropping the gloves left and right. It's about being willing to take a hit to make a play. It's about not surrendering an inch of ice to the opposition. And when push comes to shove, it's about stepping up and standing up for your teammates.

No team has ever won the Stanley Cup without someone willing to fill that role. You think the instigator rule ever crossed the minds of the Anaheim Ducks as they literally fought their way to the Cup last season, garnering a league-high 71 majors?

It is true that overall fighting is down from its halcyon days in the 1970s and 1980s when on average, there was more than one bout of fisticuffs per game. Last season saw an average of .61 fights per game.

That has more to do with players using the instigator rule as an excuse than it does with the instigator rule itself, which offers a convenient method for players who don't to fight to avoid dropping the gloves.

Still, it's difficult to fathom that big, tough hockey players would cower in fear of a minor penalty.

If the instigator rule has really impacted the game in such a manner, all that does is display what a sad state of affairs hockey finds itself in today.

While I hate this writer, I agree with him.

There is less fighting today because there's less fighters in the league.

And I know people hate me bringing this up all the time, but a lot of that has to do with how many Europeans are in the league these days.

It used to be that you had one or two skilled Euros on your top two lines. But now you are seeing a lot more 'grinder' type roles going to them as well. And most do not fight.

On top of that, the game is so much faster now, most goons cannot keep up.

Lastly, fighters today are from a different cloth.

Watch an old Tony Twist, Basil McCrae or Bob Probert fight. Then watch a Laraque, Brashear or Boogard fight. See the difference?

Fighters back then used to go toe-to-toe. Let the fists fly. But today, it's as defensive as the game they play in. It's all about 'seat belting' someone. And if you're hurt, grab the pants and wrestle them down.

It's a different game these days and I guess dinosaurs like myself need to realise the hockey I grew up on is dead and never coming back.

[BlueMonk 102]

Fighting was still up last season, compared with the season before. It may be down compared to 20 years ago, but it's not out yet.

[Happy Pancake 6]

In the press box, former Blues tough guy and current team radio analyst Kelly Chase scowled.

"When I played, I didn't have to call (National Hockey League commissioner) Gary Bettman to find out what the punishment was for running a guy from behind in Detroit," Chase said. "The punishment was (Bob) Probert and (Joe) Kocur."

Too bad it's not like that anymore.

[Hank 0]

In the press box, former Blues tough guy and current team radio analyst Kelly Chase scowled.

"When I played, I didn't have to call (National Hockey League commissioner) Gary Bettman to find out what the punishment was for running a guy from behind in Detroit," Chase said. "The punishment was (Bob) Probert and (Joe) Kocur."

Too bad it's not like that anymore.

LOL. I know, that's exactly what I thought.

BUT, if the Wings did have two tough-guys like that, guarenteed Neimenen would not have made it off the ice without some kind of reprecutions.

And that's the issue the NHL faces today. It's a copy-cat league so whenever a team shows success, everyone else emulates them.

Now you have teams like San Jose and Minnesota trying to look like the Wings. And outside of Downy, we have nobody to make someone pay for an incident like that. And he's only on the ice for 3 shifts a game.

If that took place with the Wings 80's roster they would have had Probie, Kocur, Gallant, Snepts or even Dave Barr to handle that piece of crap Neimenen. That's because every line had a guy who could throw punches.

And in reality, almost every team had a roster similar to that.

Nowadays, every team carries one resident goon and very few top 6 forwards, or top 4 dmen (who are on the ice most) don't fight - hence lots of players like Perry or Ruutu taking liberties out there without worrying about it.

The Chris Neils of the league are few and far between. He's a rare breed of someone who can knock you out but have enough skills to take a regular shift.

[stillwater 186]

The article is from January and it discusses the Anaheim Ducks fighting their way to the Stanley Cup (which is untrue, of course).

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

The instigator does prevent it to an extent.

McLeod for instance, can be a dick and play on the edge, And just piss you off badly, But dropping the gloves just because he gets under your skin. It isn't justifiable for many enforcers. Because its a selfish penalty.

Tootoo running your players, throwing elbows up. Cheap stickwork.. It *instigator* shouldn't prevent it much.. But it still does.

Enforcers know if they take penalties that ain't fighting majors, Thats pretty much the end of there work day. and end up in the press box the next game. So yah it does prevent Kocur,Propert type moments, where you just go gun-ho on a person(s).. But it doesn't prevent fighting *MW v MW.. HW v HW*..

It prevents a guy like Boogaard grabbing ahold of a McLeod and pounding his face in for being a dick.

[FireCaptain 563]

Remind me again - how many Cups did the Wings win in the '80s?

Oh, that's right.

I like the team just fine the way it is, thanks.

If that took place with the Wings 80's roster they would have had Probie, Kocur, Gallant, Snepts or even Dave Barr to handle that piece of crap Neimenen. That's because every line had a guy who could throw punches.

And in reality, almost every team had a roster similar to that.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Remind me again - how many Cups did the Wings win in the '80s?

Oh, that's right.

I like the team just fine the way it is, thanks.

How many times did detroit win without any kind of toughness? None.

We need the balance..

[Echolalia 2,961]

It's a different game these days and I guess dinosaurs like myself need to realise the hockey I grew up on is dead and never coming back.

I wouldn't say that. Its definitely down from where it was in the 80's, but I can easily see fighting making a comeback. Its only a matter of time before the entire league is predominantly "European" or "soft" or whatever you want to call it, and some outside-the-box GM drafts a 6'4" 250 lb pure enforcer to beat the s*** out of the other "enforcers" in the league, and maybe even other star players. Then everyone will be jumping on the bandwagon simply for real protection.

Also, fighting is entertainment. Pure and simple in the smallest common denominator. Its been entertainment for as long as humans have been civilized (ironically enough). If Bettman can't pick up on that (or the majority of GMs in the league to convince him of the $$$ fighting can bring in), then my bet is that the next commissioner will. I mean, ask anyone. Everyone who's seen an 80's fight can tell you thats how a hockey fight is supposed to be. Like I said, its only a matter of time before that makes its way back into the nhl. One way or another, but I'd say slowly, like over the course of 10-20 years.

[FireCaptain 563]

If Downey is the tough guy - how did Detroit win without him ever playing a playoff game?

So, my answer is 1?

How many times did detroit win without any kind of toughness? None.

We need the balance..

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

If Downey is the tough guy - how did Detroit win without him ever playing a playoff game?

So, my answer is 1?

Nobody said you have to have fight to win. All some people are saying is that there's something degrading about being known as the pussiest team in the league. The Wings have been that way for years, and it's not like we win the Cup every year despite that, so don't bring up the Stanley Cup as an excuse for why we shouldn't fight.

It's just entertaining to watch and puts people in the seats. Some of us like that part of the game and there's nothing wrong with that.

[skacore 2]

It's just entertaining to watch and puts people in the seats. Some of us like that part of the game and there's nothing wrong with that.

Exactly... beyond whether it's needed or not or if it helps the team win or not, a lot of fans have grown up loving that brand of hockey and it's disappointing to have it taken away, almost completely. All in all the NHL is entertainment, sure it's the best hockey around but without it's loyal fans it wouldn't exist, don't the old school hockey fans deserve a little treat once and a while? Hockey is as manly a sport as you can get, when you watch your team, idols, heroes, etc. back away from every challenge and when push comes to shove they bail or hide behind a referee, it can get frustrating. 18 guys play a night, is it that hard to consistently keep at least SOMEONE in the line up who has the ability to fight?

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

If Downey is the tough guy - how did Detroit win without him ever playing a playoff game?

So, my answer is 1?

I don't reckon ever saying anything about Downey at all this topic thanks.

I said toughness.. Maltby Draper McCarty Helm Drake Kronner Pavel Stuart Franzen Sammy Homer Henrik Lilja Cheli provided consistent toughness game in game out.. It might not be goon style toughness, But regardless the forwards were a suffocating bunch on the fore/back check and the D-Men were Board Warriors and Open Ice Lieutenants.. We outhit and Out played nearly every team we played.. and how many times was Pavel our leading hitter? numerous.. Its team toughness that won this Playoff battle.

During the regular season, these same players aren't going to show up with that much tenacity thats when the Enforcers roll and the 4th line Muckers come in and do there job by providing it..

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Exactly... beyond whether it's needed or not or if it helps the team win or not, a lot of fans have grown up loving that brand of hockey and it's disappointing to have it taken away, almost completely. All in all the NHL is entertainment, sure it's the best hockey around but without it's loyal fans it wouldn't exist, don't the old school hockey fans deserve a little treat once and a while? Hockey is as manly a sport as you can get, when you watch your team, idols, heroes, etc. back away from every challenge and when push comes to shove they bail or hide behind a referee, it can get frustrating. 18 guys play a night, is it that hard to consistently keep at least SOMEONE in the line up who has the ability to fight?

With that said, a lot of teams still believe in the old school part of hockey, but it's disappointing that several others don't.

It amazes me how many Wings fans on this board assume that the Wings shouldn't fight just because they're winning, not realizing that our winning has nothing to do with whether we fight or not. The Ducks won the Cup last year as a fighting team, so it's not like it can't be done. I know, however, that if we do become a tougher team somehow, no one, including the anti-fighting posters will complain one damn bit about it.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Wrong, there will always be a person on LGW that has to rock the boat..

[stillwater 186]

Is anyone here really totally against fighting? I doubt there's many.

What people are against are getting rid of decent hockey players only to replace with guys that have only talent to fight and nothing else.

If you told me we could get Daniel Carcillo for player "X", now I'm interested. Wasting a roster spot and cap money on guys that only fight is going to doom any team.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Is anyone here really totally against fighting? I doubt there's many.

What people are against are getting rid of decent hockey players only to replace with guys that have only talent to fight and nothing else.

If you told me we could get Daniel Carcillo for player "X", now I'm interested. Wasting a roster spot and cap money on guys that only fight is going to doom any team.

Why doom?

Teams have been doing that for 40 years. Just because the Wings don't do it doesn't mean nobody else does. Jesus Christ people there's 29 other teams in the league. Some people here make it sound like everyone else is dumb for dressing enforcers, while the Wings have it all figured out by not dressing any.

Edited July 7, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Wild were a team that carried 4 "enforcer/fighters" on there team going into the playoff and 2 of them played on the PowerPlay..

Fedoruk and Voros . and both did a damn good job, I'd say that they aren't worthless.

[norrisnick 1]

Nobody said you have to have fight to win. All some people are saying is that there's something degrading about being known as the pussiest team in the league. The Wings have been that way for years, and it's not like we win the Cup every year despite that, so don't bring up the Stanley Cup as an excuse for why we shouldn't fight.

It's just entertaining to watch and puts people in the seats. Some of us like that part of the game and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think Kenny and the boys care much what a bunch of meatheads at hockeyfights think.

But Holland doesn't buy it.

"The whole hockey world thought the Detroit Red Wings were soft," he said. "I'm numb to that. That rings hollow with me."

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't think Kenny and the boys care much what a bunch of meatheads at hockeyfights think.

So does every team in the league that has carried an enforcer for the last 40 yers qualify as meatheads also?

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

kopecky isn't a meat head ffs.. get your facts staight nick

[norrisnick 1]

So does every team in the league that has carried an enforcer for the last 40 yers qualify as meatheads also?

Did the members of said teams do nothing but toss out cries of "gutless *******!!" to teams believed to be less willing and/or able to manage a linebrawl? If yes, then yes.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Did the members of said teams do nothing but toss out cries of "gutless *******!!" to teams believed to be less willing and/or able to manage a linebrawl? If yes, then yes.

They didn't have to say anything. All they have to do is go out there and impose themselves physically.

[norrisnick 1]

They didn't have to say anything. All they have to do is go out there and impose themselves physically.

All I'll say is let teams try. Even if Mac and Syndrome go unsigned. It won't get teams very far.

[FireCaptain 563]

I didn't quote you saying anything about Downey - I quoted "Hank" about Downey.

I don't reckon ever saying anything about Downey at all this topic thanks.

I said toughness.. Maltby Draper McCarty Helm Drake Kronner Pavel Stuart Franzen Sammy Homer Henrik Lilja Cheli provided consistent toughness game in game out.. It might not be goon style toughness, But regardless the forwards were a suffocating bunch on the fore/back check and the D-Men were Board Warriors and Open Ice Lieutenants.. We outhit and Out played nearly every team we played.. and how many times was Pavel our leading hitter? numerous.. Its team toughness that won this Playoff battle.

During the regular season, these same players aren't going to show up with that much tenacity thats when the Enforcers roll and the 4th line Muckers come in and do there job by providing it..