Does the Instigator Rule Really Prevent Fighting?

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

I didn't quote you saying anything about Downey - I quoted "Hank" about Downey.

You did actually quote me and say something bout downey. :S must of been a mistake or something.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Wild were a team that carried 4 "enforcer/fighters" on there team going into the playoff and 2 of them played on the PowerPlay..

Fedoruk and Voros . and both did a damn good job, I'd say that they aren't worthless.

Refresh my memory on how long the Wild's playoff run lasted.

Fedoruk and Voros on the powerplay speaks for itself. Carrying more enforcers doesn't translate into success by any stretch. I'll take skill players any day of the week on the fourth line.

Edited July 8, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

It proves that Enforcers have more Value then just fighting. Not saying wild were smart by putting them on the PP, but they did a fine job i might add.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

The NHL has changed. Its more about speed and grinding physicality now. Now if you have someone who can fight, has speed, and play they game of hockey then good on ya because its rare. Your not going to see the like of Probert and Kocur anymore and it best to get used to it.

[lets go pavel 2]

my 2 cents regarding the original question about the instigator rule ... yes, i think it has contributed to the decreased # of fights ... not so much because the enforcers are afraid of a 2 minute penalty, but because their coaches are, particularly if the game is close ... now factor in that many of the enforcers are 4th line types who are clinging to their playing time by staying in their coach's good graces, and you're not going to have too many fights without the coach's approval ... in my opinion, the instigator rule has diminished the coaches' willingness to fight, not the enforcers' ...

[Hank 0]

Nobody said you have to have fight to win. All some people are saying is that there's something degrading about being known as the pussiest team in the league. The Wings have been that way for years, and it's not like we win the Cup every year despite that, so don't bring up the Stanley Cup as an excuse for why we shouldn't fight.

It's just entertaining to watch and puts people in the seats. Some of us like that part of the game and there's nothing wrong with that.

OMG??? So I'm not the only one that feels this way?

Thank you GMRwings1983!

I just find our brand of regular season hockey to be quite boring. In the playoffs hardly anyone fights and we played gritty and tough.

But it was hard to stomach watching guys take liberties with the Lebda's and Hudlers and nobody even close to standing up to them. Downey did a decent job but he and Drake were literally the only guys on the team that would make someone answer for what they've done.

I'd love to have a top 6 forward that could put up points and still make you think twice at looking at Dats or Zetts the wrong way.

I recently saw a youtube clip where Probie demolished a guy (Petit on the Rangers I believe) for taking Stevie into the wall too hard during a race to negate an icing call.

If that happened to Dats or Zetts today guys like Homer, Franzen or Sammy would face wash and yap in Swedish but that's about it.

[Opie 308]

Can I ask what liberties were taken last year on Red Wings players.

I will not argue that fights are entertaining, I will not argue that Lids got hit hard, clean but hard, and Downey stepping in was a boost in energy.

However I will go back and find posts from last year where some of you, not naming names, and I had a discussion in which you guys were claiming it(fighting/enforcing) was necessary to winning.

Now you are starting to take the argument that it is entertaining and that is why you like it, well fine that is your opinion and we all like different things. I also think a hockey fight is great entertainment, but I understand that it hasn't been a part of Red Wing hockey for a few years now.

But when you say players were taking liberties with specific players or just making that statement in general, who on the wings was in any way shape or form abused by some one last year?

I can think of one situation and that was Mclaren on Z, other than that when did some one take a run at or liberties with a player.

And BTW what the hell is entailed in taking liberties with a player? A glove to the face, stick to the back of the leg, two hander across the thigh, what exactly are these liberties you speak of?

Hank,

When was the last time Z or D or even Hossa for that matter where in a spot to get hurt? They position themselves very well, but your arguments sound more like defending the need for an enforcer/fighter than they do defending their entertainment value.

[norrisnick 1]

OMG??? So I'm not the only one that feels this way?

Thank you GMRwings1983!

I just find our brand of regular season hockey to be quite boring. In the playoffs hardly anyone fights and we played gritty and tough.

But it was hard to stomach watching guys take liberties with the Lebda's and Hudlers and nobody even close to standing up to them. Downey did a decent job but he and Drake were literally the only guys on the team that would make someone answer for what they've done.

I'd love to have a top 6 forward that could put up points and still make you think twice at looking at Dats or Zetts the wrong way.

I recently saw a youtube clip where Probie demolished a guy (Petit on the Rangers I believe) for taking Stevie into the wall too hard during a race to negate an icing call.

If that happened to Dats or Zetts today guys like Homer, Franzen or Sammy would face wash and yap in Swedish but that's about it.

Lebda needs liberties taken on him. And the one time Hudler got rocked Lilly "fought" Phaneuf.

If the Wings find a Clark Gillies I won't complain. Until then I'm not going to clamor for the Downey, Asham, Godards of the league like some feel the need to.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Lebda needs liberties taken on him. And the one time Hudler got rocked Lilly "fought" Phaneuf.

If the Wings find a Clark Gillies I won't complain. Until then I'm not going to clamor for the Downey, Asham, Godards of the league like some feel the need to.

Clark Gillies is a HOF'er. No one in the league expects their enforcer to be Clark Gillies, who BTW was not a guy who fought often to be a bona-fide enforcer.

Once again, like many others, you have unrealistic expectations of what an enforcer should be.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Oslund and Cayer need to hurry up and develop.. I think they will both scrap and hit hard and play good smart hockey.. certain wings fans wont be happy with no matter what.. they want 4 lines of scoring.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Dump-N-Thump

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

To a certain degree, I think that the instigator rule has an effect to where there could be more fights if the rule was abolished. I'm all for it being abolished.

And I like your good run-of-the-mill one-on-one fight just like everybody else. However, I absolutely do not like being labeled that I am an anti-fighter or hate enforcers like it is being suggested in this thread (not me specifically, more generalized) just because I do not place as high of an importance on such a guy.

Detroit is not the most wussy-like team in the league as suggested in here either. There are varying degrees of "toughness" and "physical play" and so forth. These past two playoffs by the Red Wings serve as a good example of it with hard work, good forechecking, continually skating fast/hard, grinding, etc.

I realize/respect that there are plenty fight fans in here and people like that type of game. I do get that enforcers answer questionable hits and may prevent future stuff later in that same game and don't mind having them, but the need for fighting or enforcement is so often overblown in here I think.

[norrisnick 1]

Clark Gillies is a HOF'er. No one in the league expects their enforcer to be Clark Gillies, who BTW was not a guy who fought often to be a bona-fide enforcer.

Once again, like many others, you have unrealistic expectations of what an enforcer should be.

Gillies didn't have to fight a lot. When he did fight he was devastating. Larry Robinson and Gordie Howe were the same way.

Unrealistic? Sure, but no less unrealistic than pretending that Aaron Asham would make any meaningful impact whatsoever.

[overHandright1 2]

my 2 cents regarding the original question about the instigator rule ... yes, i think it has contributed to the decreased # of fights ... not so much because the enforcers are afraid of a 2 minute penalty, but because their coaches are, particularly if the game is close ... now factor in that many of the enforcers are 4th line types who are clinging to their playing time by staying in their coach's good graces, and you're not going to have too many fights without the coach's approval ... in my opinion, the instigator rule has diminished the coaches' willingness to fight, not the enforcers' ...

Brilliant post! That's why the instigator rule must go (Bettman will never allow it however). The rule has given rise to the "pests" in the league who chirp, chirp, chirp all game long as well as give cheap shots that go unnoticed by the officials. The pests do all of this knowing that they can hide behind the instigator rule and the officials if needed. Who do you respect more ... players that back up their talk/play or those who don't?

[Hiei 192]

Hey, you all witnessed the joe STAND UP AND CHEER when Lilja and Downey got in fights this year.

admit it, WE MISS THE FIGHTING.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Hey, you all witnessed the joe STAND UP AND CHEER when Lilja and Downey got in fights this year.

admit it, WE MISS THE FIGHTING.

Fighting was never gone to begin with.

I like fights, but I get just as excited and appreciate such things as nifty stickhandling, a hard slapshot, one-timers, deflections of the puck into the net, etc. just as much as fighting.

However, that and me saying I don't think enforcer-types are of the utmost importance does not make me one who is completely against them alltogether.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Gillies didn't have to fight a lot. When he did fight he was devastating. Larry Robinson and Gordie Howe were the same way.

Unrealistic? Sure, but no less unrealistic than pretending that Aaron Asham would make any meaningful impact whatsoever.

SOme people here think that Kopecky had a meaningful impact last year. If that's the way to define meaningful, then Asham is a lot more meaningful than Kopecky.

[norrisnick 1]

SOme people here think that Kopecky had a meaningful impact last year. If that's the way to define meaningful, then Asham is a lot more meaningful than Kopecky.

Make your case.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Make your case.

Kopecky wound up with 2 more points than Asham in a similar amount of games. That is something considering the difference in talent that the Red Wings have compared to the Islanders.

Also, Asham is obviously a more physical player and a much better fighter than Kopecky.

When I put that together, I'd rather have Asham. Yes Kopecky is younger, but it's not like he has some amazing future potential or something. I don't ever see him being more than a 3rd line hack.

[norrisnick 1]

Kopecky had 111 hits.

Asham had 87 hits.

3rd line hack was Asham's peak. And he'll never reach that again. Kop might.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Fighting was never gone to begin with.

I like fights, but I get just as excited and appreciate such things as nifty stickhandling, a hard slapshot, one-timers, deflections of the puck into the net, etc. just as much as fighting.

However, that and me saying I don't think enforcer-types are of the utmost importance does not make me one who is completely against them alltogether.

I doubt you get just as excited, but i may be wrong.. My friends have the same taste hockeywhise as you, they like fights, but they also really enjoy every other aspects of the game. I do to but i rank my hockey fights much higher then a great deke..

^^ Dont take that like im attacking you, Because i respect your oppinion, But i know the way i word things they get taken out of context ALOT

But when we are watching hockey, weather at a house or at the arena, All the great things that happen that arent fights, you can here the Ooo's and the Aaah's but when a fight happens there isn't a Ooo or an Aaa, There is standing up out of your chain.. pumping your fist screaming "KICK HIS ASS.. YOU CAN DO IT.. RIP HIS FREAKIN HED OFF" It's a great thing because they seem so seldom in hockeytown nowadays where it just gets you that more pumped when one happens.

I honestly dont care if we have an enforcer on our team.. But to counter not having an enforcer i'd like to have players like Scottie Upshall/Scottie Hartnell/Gregory Campbell/Stephane Veilleux/Eric Nystrom/Micheal Rupp/Dave Steckle.. Pretty much guys who play 3rd/4th line minutes who arent exactly enforcers. But can pitch in offensivly along with sharing the fight total load..

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Kopecky had 111 hits.

Asham had 87 hits.

3rd line hack was Asham's peak. And he'll never reach that again. Kop might.

Where did you find these stats? i havent been able a stat sheet that counts hits.

---

Asham was on a team in NJ that realy restricted the way he could play, I expect a whole different Asham in Phili.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Kopecky had 111 hits.

Asham had 87 hits.

3rd line hack was Asham's peak. And he'll never reach that again. Kop might.

Kopecky got knocked on his ass half the times he tried to hit anybody. I hope your'e not suggesting that he's a more physical player than Asham.

Also, I want to see a guy that will do more than hit, and is willing to back up those hits by dropping the gloves when he has to. We have too many hitters on this team who are afraid to fight. Kopecky is one of them.

[norrisnick 1]

And? In the playoffs hitting goes up and fighting disappears.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I doubt you get just as excited, but i may be wrong.. My friends have the same taste hockeywhise as you, they like fights, but they also really enjoy every other aspects of the game. I do to but i rank my hockey fights much higher then a great deke..

^^ Dont take that like im attacking you, Because i respect your oppinion, But i know the way i word things they get taken out of context ALOT

But when we are watching hockey, weather at a house or at the arena, All the great things that happen that arent fights, you can here the Ooo's and the Aaah's but when a fight happens there isn't a Ooo or an Aaa, There is standing up out of your chain.. pumping your fist screaming "KICK HIS ASS.. YOU CAN DO IT.. RIP HIS FREAKIN HED OFF" It's a great thing because they seem so seldom in hockeytown nowadays where it just gets you that more pumped when one happens.

I honestly dont care if we have an enforcer on our team.. But to counter not having an enforcer i'd like to have players like Scottie Upshall/Scottie Hartnell/Gregory Campbell/Stephane Veilleux/Eric Nystrom/Micheal Rupp/Dave Steckle.. Pretty much guys who play 3rd/4th line minutes who arent exactly enforcers. But can pitch in offensivly along with sharing the fight total load..

Nah, it's true, more often than not no one specific thing about hockey or the game really gets me all jacked up and things like that. Doesn't matter how big or little the game is, whether it is regular season or playoffs, I usually just watch quietly but intently. I'll react to stuff in the heat of the moment obviously with an ooh or ah and that kinda stuff, but I'll rarely just jump out of my chair yelling "KICK HIS A**" or "TEAR HIS HEAD OFF" or "DEKE THE SNOT OUT OF THE GOALIE" or whatever else.

I went up to Detroit for game 2 of the Wings-Avs series with the Franzen hat trick and even seeing a rare playoff hockey fight for a game that just didn't completely fly out of control. Was the hat trick and the fight as well as the outcome exciting? Without question. But even then, other then the normal quick "YEAH!" or whatever else after a goal scored, I just didn't react to much or make noise. During the McCarty fight, I stood up like everybody else, but didn't think much of the fight one way or the other or ramble on that "McCarty is the freaking man for making such a comeback or getting in a fight!" for 3 minutes straight. Nor was I like "Franzen is a god for his hat trick he rulz the universe!!!!!!!"

That's just not my style of "cheering" or "support", I just don't show emotion one way or the other all that much. No, I'm not saying it's "bad" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just rarely emphatic when watching sports (when I have played it's another story obviously), even if it does include a team I really like.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

..

Yah differnet people have different methods of support..

Norris, whats this site that you find your hit stats? i must know please?