norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 NHL.com's stats. Hits would be under the RTSS category. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 Hey, you all witnessed the joe STAND UP AND CHEER when Lilja and Downey got in fights this year. admit it, WE MISS THE FIGHTING. You miss it from when? Fighting has never been prevalent while the Wings were dominating the league. Another thing too, I really liked when Downey did last year and will be happy to have him or Mac back. I like the idea of sticking up for your teammates, having a guy like Downey to boost morale ect... They have qualities that are really beneficial. The thing that I don't agree on is when people bring up the need because of all the "runs" players have taken at our guys the last few years. When? What illegal plays have been made on our players? I know 'enforcers' don't just respond to the dirty or borderline dirty but for the most part the Wings respond just as well as any other team in the league. Osgood and Hasek got bumped and possibly run and no one really did anything every time, that's life. Last year Calgary fans were screaming at their team to stand up for Kipper when he was getting run, Godard was in the lineup and nothing happened. I think the whole retaliation thing has gotten out of control. I'm a hypocite and I'll say that even though I think it's lame for people to cry over every clean hit, I've cried over clean hits as well. Enforcers can be somewhat important for the regular season, I think we all agree on that, but for the most part, the want for an enforcer is for entertainment value and less about actual team importance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 And? In the playoffs hitting goes up and fighting disappears. I don't have a problem with not dressing an enforcer for the playoffs, but I do want one for the regular season. The one exception to that is if we're playing a team that loves to play dirty in the playoffs like Calgary or Anaheim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dump-N-Thump Report post Posted July 10, 2008 so pretty much every team in teh west Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 The thing that I don't agree on is when people bring up the need because of all the "runs" players have taken at our guys the last few years. When? What illegal plays have been made on our players? I know 'enforcers' don't just respond to the dirty or borderline dirty but for the most part the Wings respond just as well as any other team in the league. Swearing at someone in Swedish isn't the kind of "response" that will deter any team from taking liberties with our star players. All of the Wings recent championship teams had a player willing to shed the mitts to come to the aid of a fellow teammate. Kocur, Shanny, McCarty, Lapointe, and so on. Just the presence of this kind of player on our roster will in effect reduce the likelihood of a cheapshot happening. It may not prevent the first cheapshot, but the player that delivered the said "cheapshot" knows that he will need to keep his head up for the rest of the game and well as the next time his team plays us. You can't just wait for one of our valuable player to get injured as a result of a cheapshot, you have to be proactive and have a deterrent in place. Enforcers are entertaining and necessary to ensure that the team makes it to the playoffs with as few banged up players as is possible. That's what I call team importance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 That's just not my style of "cheering" or "support", I just don't show emotion one way or the other all that much. No, I'm not saying it's "bad" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just rarely emphatic when watching sports ... even if it does include a team I really like. Are you taking Prozac by chance? Just kidding! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 (edited) Swearing at someone in Swedish isn't the kind of "response" that will deter any team from taking liberties with our star players. All of the Wings recent championship teams had a player willing to shed the mitts to come to the aid of a fellow teammate. Kocur, Shanny, McCarty, Lapointe, and so on. Just the presence of this kind of player on our roster will in effect reduce the likelihood of a cheapshot happening. It may not prevent the first cheapshot, but the player that delivered the said "cheapshot" knows that he will need to keep his head up for the rest of the game and well as the next time his team plays us. You can't just wait for one of our valuable player to get injured as a result of a cheapshot, you have to be proactive and have a deterrent in place. Enforcers are entertaining and necessary to ensure that the team makes it to the playoffs with as few banged up players as is possible. That's what I call team importance. That's nice and all, but I asked for times when an actual cheapshot took place because I can't recall more than a couple instances and some of them were on guys like Kopecky. It's obviously a polarizing debate but I don't agree with you about having an enforcer reduces the amount of cheapshots, it doesn't do as much as some people let on. I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. In '06 and '07 when we didn't have an enforcer, the injuries the Wings had going into the playoffs had nothing to do with the lack of an enforcer. Edited July 10, 2008 by Heaton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2008 I would love to have someone who drops the gloves. More emotion in the games and it gets me really excited. I watched the Plymouth Whalers and there would be almost a fight a game. That was the one thing that got me the most excited. Watching players fight shows passion more than almost anything else. And I don't believe the instigator rule does anything about fighting. Just an unnecessary rule. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 That's nice and all, but I asked for times when an actual cheapshot took place because I can't recall more than a couple instances and some of them were on guys like Kopecky. It's obviously a polarizing debate but I don't agree with you about having an enforcer reduces the amount of cheapshots, it doesn't do as much as some people let on. I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. In '06 and '07 when we didn't have an enforcer, the injuries the Wings had going into the playoffs had nothing to do with the lack of an enforcer. Polarizing debate indeed. Numerous times while the Wings' forwards are in front of the opposition's net during the play and after the whistle, they get pushed around, slashed, crosschecked, and punched. Usually all that happens is Samuelsson (or whomever) will come into the scrum and verbally disagree with the treatment of his teammates. That's it. Asking for actual "instances" isn't really necessary because we've seen this pathetic display over and over again. Having an enforcer on the roster is not only what most fans want but it's also what the players themselves appreciate as well. Downey was praised and thanked by his teammates for his efforts on the ice. If the players like having Downey out there, who are you to say that he isn't important to the team? BTW... '06 -- No enforcer -- Lost in 1st round -- No Cup '07 -- No enforcer -- Lost in WCF -- No Cup '08 -- Aaron Downey -- Stanley Cup Champs! Can't argue with the recent results, but I'm sure you will find a way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) Polarizing debate indeed. Numerous times while the Wings' forwards are in front of the opposition's net during the play and after the whistle, they get pushed around, slashed, crosschecked, and punched. Usually all that happens is Samuelsson (or whomever) will come into the scrum and verbally disagree with the treatment of his teammates. That's it. Asking for actual "instances" isn't really necessary because we've seen this pathetic display over and over again. Err, what exactly are you asking for in this instances then? After every shoving match after a whistle you want a fight? The Wings slash, cross check and face wash players after most whistles as well. Ask other fans around the league, the Wings are viewed as one of the dirtest teams in the league in terms of under the radar plays. Having an enforcer on the roster is not only what most fans want but it's also what the players themselves appreciate as well. Downey was praised and thanked by his teammates for his efforts on the ice. If the players like having Downey out there, who are you to say that he isn't important to the team? This is why these debates always fail and are not worth the time. Do you actually read the posts or just skim and respond? I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. I've agreed that they have importance in the regular season but the amount of importance I still feel is very debatable. Perhaps the point has gotten across now. BTW... '06 -- No enforcer -- Lost in 1st round -- No Cup '07 -- No enforcer -- Lost in WCF -- No Cup '08 -- Aaron Downey -- Stanley Cup Champs! Can't argue with the recent results, but I'm sure you will find a way. There's no argument against it, but you're pigeon-holing the season by placing so many accolades to Aaron Downey. As for reasons the Wings won the cup, Aaron Downey is near the bottom. I'm not about to completely discredit Aaron Downey's role on the team, but other teams have won without an enforcer and last season the Wings would've won the cup with or without Downey playing in the regular season. One of the main reasons for your pro's of having an enforcer is limiting the amount of injuries going into the playoffs. I'll say it again, the two seasons prior to this one after the lockout any injuries going into the playoffs wouldn't have been prevented by having an Aaron Downey in the lineup. You're viewing my posts as if I'm anti-fighting. That's not the case. I just don't get embarased when the Wings don't have 30+ fights in a regular season like some fans do. That's not a reflection of how the team is looked at by other teams and players, that's a fans inferiority complex. Do you think after the Wings win 55 games and have the best PK and lowest GAA they give a s*** if they only have 15 fights? Ask Lidstrom how many fights the Wings last year, I bet you he has no clue. But you're right, it's a morale thing, it's a sense of security to a point. But this team has shown that when really needed, they have guys who will step in. Edited July 11, 2008 by Heaton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 If you agree that enforcers have importance in the regular season, why do you have this need to qualify the amount of importance? By questioning the amount of importance you seem to question whether or not the Wings need one. You exemplify this supposed notion by pointing out the Wings injuries in the '06 and '07 seasons would not have been prevented by the presence of an enforcer and that they would have won the Cup this year with or without Downey in the lineup in the regular season. You seem to flip flop your position every other sentence. Just say that enforcers have importance and just leave it at that. As for your questions directed at me: No, I do not expect a fight after every scrum. I read your post and I didn't just skim and respond. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 IMO it's a fact that guys like Downey and McCarty have a effect on the way an opponent plays us. If a player thinks twice about a dirty check on one of our skill guys, then the enforcer has done his job. From memory D-Mac had only one fight for the playoffs but that doesn't mean his presence wasn't known. The other factor was Kronwall. He didn't fight but he hurt opponents and his physicality in open ice was far more effective than any stats could measure. He was so prominent that again, players thought twice when skating through the neutral zone. Without even being near the play, Kronwall caused miscues and turnovers. This is hockey. Physicality will always help a team. You can't just have skill players. Just ask the Flyers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 IMO it's a fact that guys like Downey and McCarty have a effect on the way an opponent plays us. If a player thinks twice about a dirty check on one of our skill guys, then the enforcer has done his job. From memory D-Mac had only one fight for the playoffs but that doesn't mean his presence wasn't known. The other factor was Kronwall. He didn't fight but he hurt opponents and his physicality in open ice was far more effective than any stats could measure. He was so prominent that again, players thought twice when skating through the neutral zone. Without even being near the play, Kronwall caused miscues and turnovers. This is hockey. Physicality will always help a team. You can't just have skill players. Just ask the Flyers. Name one player that is inclined to dish out dirty checks that would give two s***s whether or not Mac or Downey or any other enforcer were on the bench? Fun story time. A game between the Kings and Sens in '05-'06. Sens had McGrattan, Neil, Chara, etc... all dressed. Sean Avery punched Dominik Hasek in the mask after Dom stoned him cold. Sure Avery was clinging to McGrattan's ankles his next shift, but do you honestly think he cared at all? I sure as hell don't. Hell in '07 Brad May ended Kim Johnsson's playoffs (he was the Wild's #1 defenseman that year) with a suckerpunch and the Wild had Boogaard dressed. There's no one scarier than Boogaard, yet May was undeterred. Odd... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 Ville Nieminen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) You seem to flip flop your position every other sentence. Just say that enforcers have importance and just leave it at that. Believe it or not you can say both without contradicting yourself. Studying for tests in school is important, but they're not completely necessary to pass a test if you know the material well enough. Enforcers can have importance if you decide to have one on your team, but if you decide not to invest the time and money into one, it doesn't mean it's that much harder. Edited July 11, 2008 by Heaton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 Ville Nieminen. Which might explain why he isn't an NHLer anymore. On the other hand he plowed through Cujo with Mac on the ice... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeinred 1,488 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 BTW... '06 -- No enforcer -- Lost in 1st round -- No Cup '07 -- No enforcer -- Lost in WCF -- No Cup '08 -- Aaron Downey -- Stanley Cup Champs! Can't argue with the recent results, but I'm sure you will find a way. You know that correlation doesn't imply causation, right? That means absolutely nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vangvace 12 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 I've been giving this some more thought... yes the instigator penalty has prevented some fighting. In particular, the last minute of the game line brawls. With visors becoming more prevelent, the extra penalty for instigating without removing your helmet only further adds to less fighting. As far as enforcers go... I believe thier role as being body guards on skates that pummel anyone that looks at the star wrong has changed or should I say evolved like the rest of the game has. Now, while sticking up for teammates is still a huge part of the job, so is hitting/taking hits so that the stars don't have to. Also the fact that a player knows that someone has their back as adds to their spunk. Case in point would be Maltby this year returning to almost form of prelockout bug. PS I might edit this later to flesh out some more, but it's go home time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 Which might explain why he isn't an NHLer anymore. On the other hand he plowed through Cujo with Mac on the ice... Mac was pathetic back then. Look this is a pointless argument. I can name more players and your argument will be "Nah" and mine will be "Yeah". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 You know that correlation doesn't imply causation, right? That means absolutely nothing. Of course. There are numerous reasons that the Wings won the Cup this past season. I wouldn't say that the statement means absolutely nothing. Downey made contributions during the regular season. Don't take what I said out of the context of my post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 11, 2008 And there'll be at least 2-3 guys that don't care for every one of yours that do. A couple punches in the helmet is a very small price to pay for cheapshotting the opposition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 12, 2008 Of course. There are numerous reasons that the Wings won the Cup this past season. I wouldn't say that the statement means absolutely nothing. Downey made contributions during the regular season. Don't take what I said out of the context of my post. So did Hartigan, Meech, and Ellis but they don't seem to have a fan club... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vangvace 12 Report post Posted July 12, 2008 So did Hartigan, Meech, and Ellis but they don't seem to have a fan club... they weren't unique in their contribution either Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overHandright1 2 Report post Posted July 12, 2008 Believe it or not you can say both without contradicting yourself. Studying for tests in school is important, but they're not completely necessary to pass a test if you know the material well enough. Enforcers can have importance if you decide to have one on your team, but if you decide not to invest the time and money into one, it doesn't mean it's that much harder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted July 12, 2008 So did Hartigan, Meech, and Ellis but they don't seem to have a fan club... They didnt do what Downey did, and that's why people didnt like them as much. That isnt to say people didnt, I know many people were disappointed when Ellis got claimed, and many people who think Meech should have a spot in the top 6. Hartigan, eh, he grows a nice goatee, that is for sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
