Norris Trophy 08-09

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

I still contend that you cannot compare the two because it's a different game in a different era

That being said, were I to compare them I'd say that Orr is pretty obviously the best all around defenseman ever. But in terms of the defensive aspect of the position, Lidstrom is better.

e: also, with all the talk about Orr revolutionizing the position, I think you can make a similar case for Lidstrom, though obviously not even close to the same level. In the mid 90's Lidstrom flew under the radar because no one really payed attention to a defenseman who plays the way that Lidstrom does. The emphasis was always on physical play, Lidstrom made people realize just how valuable a positional defenseman can be.

Edited July 8, 2008 by omnipotent_hudler

[T.Low 1,011]

Lidstrom is my preseason vote, for whatever thats worth. More than a couple guys could have a great season and win it.

Orr was awesome. Lidstrom is incredible; he''ll be in the conversation, thats for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRcvrUF5l7Y...feature=related

Edit: Orr makes me think of a college athlete back at high school for the holidays, just toying with the high school kids: a man among boys. Lidstrom reminds me of NFL quarterback Roger Starbach: quiet, polite, classy, composed, will tie you up in knots and score on you in a second.

Edited July 8, 2008 by T.Low

[stillwater 186]

Wait, a defenceman can be considered one of the best of all time without ever fighting?

All of the other teams must think the Wings are "*******".

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Actually, Doug Harvey redefined the position more than any other defenseman.

I don't know if Orr necessarily redefined the position as much as setting a bar that no one has been able to match. The things Orr did no one has been able to do since. Harvey didn't really do anything no one else has done since, but he was the first defenseman to add an offensive mindset to his game, so in my opinion he was the one who redefined the position.

It's only lately that I've begun to consider Lidstrom as 2nd best as opposed to 3rd best.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Wait, a defenceman can be considered one of the best of all time without ever fighting?

All of the other teams must think the Wings are "*******".

Good one, but we already have plenty of anti-fighting threads going, so you can post your opinions there.

[awingsincebirth 0]

That makes sense, I guess. I don't really know a tonne about previous NHL eras. I guess I just assumed that Orr was the first defenseman to really add the heavy offensive aspect to the game. Realistically though, he was just the very best at it. I think its fairly safe to say that we will never see another defenseman win the scoring title like he did, that is flat out ridiculous.

[stillwater 186]

Oh, ok ... thanks for the heads up.

Harvey never scored ten goals in any season in his career, Orr scored 46 (3 other years of 30+) one year. Is it ok to point that out boss?

[eva unit zero 271]

Longevity wise, many people are ahead of Orr already. The reason he's the best are the aforementioned reasons in my previous post, which I won't restate again.

Also, there was no lack of talent back in those days anymore than there is now. In fact, I remember there being a thread several weeks ago about how the competition in the 80's amongst defensemen was better than what it is now in Lidstrom's era. You could make a similar argument for the 70's. Personally, I don't think this era is that far above others.

Furthermore, believe it or not sports is a popularity contest, and Orr's contribution and status in the game will never be 2nd to any defenseman.

The top handful of defensemen in NHL history include guys like Orr, Bourque, Shore, Robinson, Lidstrom, Savard, Potvin, Chelios, Niedermayer, Park, Harvey, and others.

My statement about the 70s had more to do with the fact that during Orr's best years, there were 25 major professional hockey teams coming from a talent pool which had just a few years prior been supplying only six teams. By Lidstrom's prime, due to improved American programs and access to Europeans, the available pool of NHL-level talent had effectively doubled. So instead of 150 NHL-caliber defensemen available for 25 NHL-level teams, we have 300 NHL-caliber defensemen for 30 NHL-level teams. If we assume the talent to be distributed evenly from the best to worst of the group, then that means your average #6 in the NHL today would have been a top-four defenseman in the 70s and 80s. Considering how far Lidstrom stands out from the group now, it's not so far fetched to suggest he might overall be a better player than Orr. Not more dominant; as dominance is relative to your peers and therefore an equal player with better peers will not appear as dominant, and a better player with considerably better peers may appear less dominant, but he might actually be a better player.

[eva unit zero 271]

Oh, ok ... thanks for the heads up.

Harvey never scored ten goals in any season in his career, Orr scored 46 (3 other years of 30+) one year. Is it ok to point that out boss?

Only if you are willing to point out that Bobby Orr was just playing the same game played by Cyclone Taylor and Flash Hollett, but doing it with Phil Esposito on his team during the most diluted defensive point in league history.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Oh, ok ... thanks for the heads up.

Harvey never scored ten goals in any season in his career, Orr scored 46 (3 other years of 30+) one year. Is it ok to point that out boss?

Statistically that might not seem too impressive compared to today, but back then players didn't play as many games a season. Also, he was still scoring more than the other defensemen were at that time.

So yes, Harvey was the first defenseman to add an offensive mindset to his game.

[stillwater 186]

Only if you are willing to point out that Bobby Orr was just playing the same game played by Cyclone Taylor and Flash Hollett, but doing it with Phil Esposito on his team during the most diluted defensive point in league history.

Certainly. You can include Lionel Conacher, Hap Day, King Clancy and Dit Clapper ... old time hockey, whatever.

I just don't see how the "defensive point" is less diluted now. There are more teams now than ever. The game is more defensive now, obviously, but that doesn't downplay Orr's achievements, or those of any of the other greats. It's just a different game now, what with all the great fighters and all ...

Edited July 8, 2008 by stillwater

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Certainly. You can include Lionel Conacher, Hap Day, King Clancy and Dit Clapper ... old time hockey, whatever.

All those guys were important to the evolution of the game, but none of them are as important as Doug Harvey. You're generalizing way too much with your limited knowledge of the game's history.

[stillwater 186]

So yes, Harvey was the first defenseman to add an offensive mindset to his game.

Dude, I'm not knocking Harvey, but there were many before him.

[stillwater 186]

You're generalizing way too much with your limited knowledge of the game's history.

Why don't you enlighten me then? You know it all, go ahead.

[T.Low 1,011]

Oh, ok ... thanks for the heads up.

Harvey never scored ten goals in any season in his career, Orr scored 46 (3 other years of 30+) one year. Is it ok to point that out boss?

So you're saying that "mindset" is one thing, but "dominance" is certainly another thing. Hmmm. Valid point.

Gmr, back to you, Sir.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Dude, I'm not knocking Harvey, but there were many before him.

None of them did as much for the offensive aspects of defense as he did. He was the guy that brought that strategy into the mindset of NHL defensemen.

[T.Low 1,011]

None of them did as much for the offensive aspects of defense as he did. He was the guy that brought that strategy into the mindset of NHL defensemen.

Hmm. So you're saying that Harvey was the pioneer, hence, revolutionize, while Orr simply took it to another level. Hmm. Valid point, sir, vaild point indeed.

Edit: (Tori) Spelling

Edited July 8, 2008 by T.Low

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

So you're saying that "mindset" is one thing, but "dominance" is certainly another thing. Hmmm. Valid point.

Gmr, back to you, Sir.

Oh, I agree with him there. I never said Harvey was dominant, in fact I said the exact opposite when this argument began.

Harvey changed the "mindset" around, but Orr was the first who turned that into offensive "dominance". Although it's hard to argue that a guy who won 7 straight Norris trophies wasn't dominant.

However, back then it was a 6 team league, so Harvey's dominance must be questioned somewhat. However, his being the first defenseman with an "offensive" mindset can't be questioned in my opinion, which is what I've been arguing all along.

[stillwater 186]

It must have been extraordinarily difficult passing the puck up to Boom Boom Geoffrion, Jean Beliveau, Rocket Richard, et al right?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

It must have been extraordinarily difficult passing the puck up to Boom Boom Geoffrion, Jean Beliveau, Rocket Richard, et al right?

The same could be said for any great defenseman who ever lived, including Lidstrom. They all played with HOF'ers. That doesn't take anything away from what he did.

Edited July 8, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[stillwater 186]

I never said Harvey was dominant, in fact I said the exact opposite when this argument began.

I can't find where you said the "exact opposite" Mr. Costanza. Can you point that out to me?

[eva unit zero 271]

Certainly. You can include Lionel Conacher, Hap Day, King Clancy and Dit Clapper ... old time hockey, whatever.

I just don't see how the "defensive point" is less diluted now. There are more teams now than ever. The game is more defensive now, obviously, but that doesn't downplay Orr's achievements, or those of any of the other greats. It's just a different game now, what with all the great fighters and all ...

There are many more high end players now due to players coming from more than Canada. There are only five more 'major pro' teams than there were in Orr's era, and that was when only Canadians played. Also, nowadays teams play much better defensive systems and goaltenders especially are better. Orr was a great offensive defenseman, but there were many defensemen who were consstently better defensively in his era. Lidstrom is the best of his era at both ends of the ice. That's phenomenally impressive.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Can we all agree that Oasis is the greatest band in the world? Can we not vote on this???

(who gets this reference?)

[T.Low 1,011]

Its threads like this one that keep me coming back in the summertime. And to think I've past it by many times because I thought that due to the title of the thread, the content wouldn't interest me.

How can a hockey forum not have a beer toasting emoticon?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I can't find where you said the "exact opposite" Mr. Costanza. Can you point that out to me?

When I said that Harvey didn't do anything that no one has done since, but instead changed the game. And I've stayed with that same mindset throughout this thread.

I don't know why my position on this is so hard for you to understand. I've been as clear as day so far.