Maltby

[Opie 308]

You are right: Maltby had 2:06 of PK ice time per game last year, 10th on the team, though really 9th among regulars because Quincey was third.

HOWEVER! Among forwards, he's fourth on the team, though only 3 seconds per game behind Z, and ahead of Datsyuk.

Maltby still has all the PK skills he used to, unfortunately he's kind of a PK specialist these days and could probably be replaced.

The problem with that is the exact reason Quincey is third, yes Maltby may have average three seconds less than Z but how many more shifts on the PK did Z take than Malts.

For instance if Quincey has 5 shifts and they all came during the injury stretch he could have had 5 shifts in 2 games of a minute a piece, thus skewing his results.

Not saying your point isn't valid but Quincey was a 7th d-man most of the season, because his average PK shift length happened to be longer doesn't mean he is a better or more used PKer.

I am still looking for pk shifts stats but it is a little hard (unless you have a good site) because it appears it is not the best kept stat.

[lets go pavel 2]

The problem with that is the exact reason Quincey is third, yes Maltby may have average three seconds less than Z but how many more shifts on the PK did Z take than Malts.

For instance if Quincey has 5 shifts and they all came during the injury stretch he could have had 5 shifts in 2 games of a minute a piece, thus skewing his results.

Not saying your point isn't valid but Quincey was a 7th d-man most of the season, because his average PK shift length happened to be longer doesn't mean he is a better or more used PKer.

I am still looking for pk shifts stats but it is a little hard (unless you have a good site) because it appears it is not the best kept stat.

Actually because it's average PK time per game those stats are perfectly valid, you just have to check the sample size. Quincey only played 6 games last year, so while his average was high he clearly wasn't a significant PK contributor over the course of the season. Maltby played 61 games, so his 2:06 of average PK time is a pretty accurate depiction of his contributions to the PK over the season.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

If you don't believe in my arguments, then why do you think Holland keeps him around? Everyone here thinks Holland is a god, so justify his keeping Maltby on the roster.

Personally, I think he keeps him around because he's been a Wing for a long time and because he can still kill penalties. Loyalty is a part of this organization, unlike many others.

Name a better GM in the NHL right now.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

If you don't believe in my arguments, then why do you think Holland keeps him around? Everyone here thinks Holland is a god, so justify his keeping Maltby on the roster.

Personally, I think he keeps him around because he's been a Wing for a long time and because he can still kill penalties. Loyalty is a part of this organization, unlike many others.

Holland keeps him around, but not because of the things you initially listed. Loyalty is a big part of it, his salary not being outrageous is another and he's still a valuable part of the ES shut-down line (which I don't know how you missed that, but I stated that point in the post of mine you quoted). Here are the points you stated:

Maltby does things out there that Sammy can't do with his defensive game and his occasional checking game,

Still, Maltby doesn't make stupid meaningless plays which take scoring opportunities away from other players.

Not to mention, hardcore Wings fans want to see him in the lineup as a crowd favorite. Needless to say, Sammy is not a crowd favorite.

BTW, Maltby is still a PK man.

Aside from the last one, none of those have anything to do with what you just stated in your last post (loyalty, Pk) so I responded to them. At the same time you didn't refute any point I just made in the initial post you quoted me on. All you said was "why do you think Kenny keeps him around?" and then stated loyalty/penalty killing as reasons Kenny keeps Malts. In all seriousness, why don't you respond to the comments I made and the questions I posted to you? I never said that Malts was worthless, just that the initial points you made, I feel are inaccurate. If you disagree, please respond to the actual comments I made.

Anyway, his effectiveness on the PK is starting to dwindle as he's beginning to age and with the emergence of Z and the rest of the skilled PK'ers on the roster. While I don't share Opie's seemingly disdain of Maltby, I do feel his usefulness/effectiveness on *this* roster is starting to really shrink, and no ill-will intended, but I question your judgment if you can't see that.

[Opie 308]

Actually because it's average PK time per game those stats are perfectly valid, you just have to check the sample size. Quincey only played 6 games last year, so while his average was high he clearly wasn't a significant PK contributor over the course of the season. Maltby played 61 games, so his 2:06 of average PK time is a pretty accurate depiction of his contributions to the PK over the season.

I specifically said in my post

Not saying your point isn't valid but

I wasn't questioning the validity of his stats, but like GAA is a slightly misleading stat so can PK average time.

Drake was lost for a chunk of the season as was Cleary. Maltby filled in admirably, and yes he is still a decent PK player, but the point remains he only provides PK ability.

While the Wings have about 6 guys that IMO do it better than Malts:

Z

Dats

Mule

Draper

Cleary

Hossa

Add to that the fact that the people who are being talked about to take his minutes (Sammy {I didn't bring his name into the mix}, Kopecky, Leino, Abdelkader, Downey, Mac whoever else would get fourth line minutes) provide something that Malts no longer can provide. OR they have potential to add scoring depth.

I am not saying Malts should retire and never wear skates again, what I am saying is that on this Wings team IMO the best place for him is in the press box.

The only reason this debate is happening is because GMR brought Sammy into the fray, which I took the bait and said what does Maltby do that the wings don't have in spades, and that there are things Sammy did that Malts hasn't done in years, score points. Maltby in the last three years is 2 points shy of what Sammy put up in his worst season as a wing. Yet he is cannon fodder while Malt lives on his past reputation as an elite PKer, which he is no longer and hasn't been since the lockout. He is a damn good pker, but not what he once was.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Name a better GM in the NHL right now.

No one, but that wasn't the point. GMR was putting words in my mouth if he feels I was in any way stating that Maltby was worthless. I never said any such thing.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

No one, but that wasn't the point. GMR was putting words in my mouth if he feels I was in any way stating that Maltby was worthless. I never said any such thing.

I know you didn't. I was making the point that GMR labeled everyone on here as treating Holland like God.

I just wanted to see if he could come up with a better GM, or if he's holding a grudge against Holland for being "soft", which in all likelihood is the case.

Edited August 13, 2008 by GoWings1905

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I know you didn't. I was making the point that GMR labeled everyone on here as treating Holland like God.

I just wanted to see if he could come up with a better GM, or if he's holding a grudge against Holland for being "soft", which in all likelihood is the case.

Not that its my place to say, but GMR was defending Holland for keeping Maltby.....not the other way around.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

Maltby should not have a guaranteed spot on this team let alone wear an "A." I have to say that it wouldn't break my heart to see him getting fourth line mins is about half the games this year. The rest of the time he can wear a suit in the press box and work his ass off at practice.

Edited August 13, 2008 by LIDDYGIBBY5

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Not that its my place to say, but GMR was defending Holland for keeping Maltby.....not the other way around.

My fault. I must have misunderstood the post.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Holland keeps him around, but not because of the things you initially listed. Loyalty is a big part of it, his salary not being outrageous is another and he's still a valuable part of the ES shut-down line (which I don't know how you missed that, but I stated that point in the post of mine you quoted). Here are the points you stated:

Maltby does things out there that Sammy can't do with his defensive game and his occasional checking game,

Still, Maltby doesn't make stupid meaningless plays which take scoring opportunities away from other players.

Not to mention, hardcore Wings fans want to see him in the lineup as a crowd favorite. Needless to say, Sammy is not a crowd favorite.

BTW, Maltby is still a PK man.

Aside from the last one, none of those have anything to do with what you just stated in your last post (loyalty, Pk), nor do I feel any of them are accurate (with the exception of the last one, but not based on necessity with this current roster.) At the same time you didn't refute any point I just made in the initial post you quoted me on. All you said was "why do you think Kenny keeps him around?" and then stated loyalty/penalty killing as reasons Kenny keeps Malts. In all seriousness, why don't you respond to the comments I made and the questions I posted to you? I never said that Malts was worthless, just that the initial points you made, I feel are inaccurate. If you disagree, please respond to the actual comments I made.

Anyway, his effectiveness on the PK is starting to dwindle as he's beginning to age and with the emergence of Z and the rest of the skilled PK'ers on the roster. While I don't share Opie's seemingly disdain of Maltby, I do feel his usefulness/effectiveness on *this* roster is starting to really shrink, and no ill-will intended, but I question your judgment if you can't see that.

I know you didn't say Maltby was worthless. Him being one the shut-down line coincides with his defensive play/penalty killing, which I considered hand in hand. That's why I never mentioned it. The only one I'd disagree with you on is him being an instigator, which I think has tallied off a bit.

You are right in saying that he's worsened over the years, which is why I believe Holland keeps him around because of loyalty. If not for that, he would have been moved about 5 years ago. As people have mentioned there are other guys who can kill penalties. So in all, I think his defensive game is part of it, but the fact that he's been here a long time is the chief reason for why he's still around.

Also, believe it or not, I was actually defending Holland's actions on this one. So whoever jumped the gun on me, shame on you.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I know you didn't say Maltby was worthless. Him being one the shut-down line coincides with his defensive play/penalty killing, which I considered hand in hand. That's why I never mentioned it. The only one I'd disagree with you on is him being an instigator, which I think has tallied off a bit.

You are right in saying that he's worsened over the years, which is why I believe Holland keeps him around because of loyalty. If not for that, he would have been moved about 5 years ago. As people have mentioned there are other guys who can kill penalties. So in all, I think his defensive game is part of it, but the fact that he's been here a long time is the chief reason for why he's still around.

Also, believe it or not, I was actually defending Holland's actions on this one. So whoever jumped the gun on me, shame on you.

Absolutely it has, but the point I was making is that right now the only thing Maltby has on Sammy is the fact that he still can be an instigator, which Sammy is the furthest thing from.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Absolutely it has, but the point I was making is that right now the only thing Maltby has on Sammy is the fact that he still can be an instigator, which Sammy is the furthest thing from.

Tell that to Brenden Morrow, who wanted to kill Sammy 2 years ago.

Also, I didn't mention this in my previous post, but further proof of Holland's loyalty is in the way he gave McCarty a chance to come back last year and play in the playoffs. The truth is that no other team in the league would have given him a chance. Also, he's stated that he wants Mac back for this season, even though there isn't apparently any room for him on the roster.

This should explain to everyone why Maltby is still on this team. Personally, I have no problem with that and want him to finish his career with the Wings. I don't know why Opie and several other posters want him gone so badly. He's never been a detriment before. I think any true Wings fan should want Maltby to come back next year as a regular on the roster. He's been a Wing since I was in middle school for crying out loud.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Tell that to Brenden Morrow, who wanted to kill Sammy 2 years ago.

Also, I didn't mention this in my previous post, but further proof of Holland's loyalty is in the way he gave McCarty a chance to come back last year and play in the playoffs. The truth is that no other team in the league would have given him a chance. Also, he's stated that he wants Mac back for this season, even though there isn't apparently any room for him on the roster.

This should explain to everyone why Maltby is still on this team. Personally, I have no problem with that and want him to finish his career with the Wings. I don't know why Opie and several other posters want him gone so badly. He's never been a detriment before. I think any true Wings fan should want Maltby to come back next year as a regular on the roster. He's been a Wing since I was in middle school for crying out loud.

You're right in saying that loyalty is one of the components that makes the Wings great year-in and year-out, but it is just *one* of the many. When Maltby starts to hold people back and his skill level isn't up to what a comparable player making half as much is making, then you need to start looking ahead rather than just behind. While Kenny is great at being loyal, he's also not stupid and willing to put someone out there for the shear sake of being loyal. Bringing Mac back was great on his part, but Mac still needed to earn his roster spot.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You're right in saying that loyalty is one of the components that makes the Wings great year-in and year-out, but it is just *one* of the many. When Maltby starts to hold people back and his skill level isn't up to what a comparable player making half as much is making, then you need to start looking ahead rather than just behind. While Kenny is great at being loyal, he's also not stupid and willing to put someone out there for the shear sake of being loyal. Bringing Mac back was great on his part, but Mac still needed to earn his roster spot.

I don't think he's really holding anyone back. There are many inconsistent forwards on this team like Sammy, Hudler, Flip, Cleary. None of them ever get benched for not producing like they're capable of at times. I don't think it's gotten to that point yet where he's absolutely ineffective, but then again he is one of the few players on this team who has immunity from me, so maybe I'm not seeing things clearly. The same arguments are actually being made about Chelios, who is another guy I've given immunity to. In all, I expect Maltby to play 82 games if healthy.

Also, I don't remember Mac having to do anything to win a roster spot. Kopecky got hurt and Downey was sat for Mac who had just come back from GR. The decade that he spent in Detroit is what won him his roster spot.

[Opie 308]

No one, but that wasn't the point. GMR was putting words in my mouth if he feels I was in any way stating that Maltby was worthless. I never said any such thing.

What I didn't get about his post (GMR's) was that Malts contract was signed when the Wings weren't these wings. Mule was Johan Franzen, Cleary was a project, Z wasn't this defensively spectacular, Hossa was a thrasher, Dats was not this defensively spectacular, Drapes was a Free agent at the end of that year (could have hung them up not that he would have left) Robert Lang was on the roster (his name doesn't envoke visions of D-fense.

So yeah Holland must have envisioned this roster when he signed Maltby to that 3 year deal!

[Opie 308]

Tell that to Brenden Morrow, who wanted to kill Sammy 2 years ago.

Also, I didn't mention this in my previous post, but further proof of Holland's loyalty is in the way he gave McCarty a chance to come back last year and play in the playoffs. The truth is that no other team in the league would have given him a chance. Also, he's stated that he wants Mac back for this season, even though there isn't apparently any room for him on the roster.

This should explain to everyone why Maltby is still on this team. Personally, I have no problem with that and want him to finish his career with the Wings. I don't know why Opie and several other posters want him gone so badly. He's never been a detriment before. I think any true Wings fan should want Maltby to come back next year as a regular on the roster. He's been a Wing since I was in middle school for crying out loud.

This is the biggest problem with your posts, you sir don't pay attention OR have comprehension problems.

When did I ever say I wanted him gone so badly, my original comment was that I thought the wings were best served with him in the press box, as I believe there are better options out there. You translate that to I want him gone badly just because he is Maltby. WHICH IS WRONG.

I explained why I thought others were better options and I also stated my thoughts on Maltby and none of them were negative or bashing.

You have this uncanny ability to take a person's post and twist their words all around to help your argument.

I have nothing against him personally, I just think their are better options, the same way others think about Cheli.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

What I didn't get about his post (GMR's) was that Malts contract was signed when the Wings weren't these wings. Mule was Johan Franzen, Cleary was a project, Z wasn't this defensively spectacular, Hossa was a thrasher, Dats was not this defensively spectacular, Drapes was a Free agent at the end of that year (could have hung them up not that he would have left) Robert Lang was on the roster (his name doesn't envoke visions of D-fense.

So yeah Holland must have envisioned this roster when he signed Maltby to that 3 year deal!

Even with contracts, a player can still obviously be traded. There are many teams who'd love to have a PK man that has won multiple Cups.

Despite that, I've never heard of Holland shipping Maltby around these last several seasons even after his production has gone down, and even after these other players have developed. The fact is that Maltby is still here with his low productivity, and Holland hasn't made a move to change that. To me it all comes back to loyalty with him, McCarty and Chelios.

[Opie 308]

Even with contracts, a player can still obviously be traded. There are many teams who'd love to have a PK man that has won multiple Cups.

Despite that, I've never heard of Holland shipping Maltby around these last several seasons even after his production has gone down, and even after these other players have developed. The fact is that Maltby is still here with his low productivity, and Holland hasn't made a move to change that. To me it all comes back to loyalty with him, McCarty and Chelios.

Yes because the demand for a 37 year old pk specialist with limited to no upside is in such a high demand Holland must have suitors lined up all over the place.

Now you say loyalty, a little while ago it was his defensive ability, this is like the enforcer thing you go round and round, first it is necessary to win, then it isn't but you want it for entertainment, then it is pride.

Do me a favor and make up your mind, then we can have a discussion about it, until you state your opinion about something and stick to it for more than 3 posts I am done!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I don't think he's really holding anyone back. There are many inconsistent forwards on this team like Sammy, Hudler, Flip, Cleary. None of them ever get benched for not producing like they're capable of at times. I don't think it's gotten to that point yet where he's absolutely ineffective, but then again he is one of the few players on this team who has immunity from me, so maybe I'm not seeing things clearly. The same arguments are actually being made about Chelios, who is another guy I've given immunity to. In all, I expect Maltby to play 82 games if healthy.

Also, I don't remember Mac having to do anything to win a roster spot. Kopecky got hurt and Downey was sat for Mac who had just come back from GR. The decade that he spent in Detroit is what won him his roster spot.

Oooh..........the members here that have this mindset are the majority of the ones I debate with because I tend to think there judgement is cloudy based on personal feelings. Its no different than the goalie-slappies we have here that made the past couple years somewhat of a living hell. The bottom line is that I live by the sentence in my signature.

I don't think he's really holding anyone back. There are many inconsistent forwards on this team like Sammy, Hudler, Flip, Cleary. None of them ever get benched for not producing like they're capable of at times. I don't think it's gotten to that point yet where he's absolutely ineffective, but then again he is one of the few players on this team who has immunity from me, so maybe I'm not seeing things clearly. The same arguments are actually being made about Chelios, who is another guy I've given immunity to. In all, I expect Maltby to play 82 games if healthy.

Also, I don't remember Mac having to do anything to win a roster spot. Kopecky got hurt and Downey was sat for Mac who had just come back from GR. The decade that he spent in Detroit is what won him his roster spot.

I didn't say 'win'.........I said 'earn'. There's a big difference there seeing as that he had to earn the right to move up to the Wings roster. Once he was there, injuries took place and he was put in the lineup.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

This is the biggest problem with your posts, you sir don't pay attention OR have comprehension problems.

When did I ever say I wanted him gone so badly, my original comment was that I thought the wings were best served with him in the press box, as I believe there are better options out there. You translate that to I want him gone badly just because he is Maltby. WHICH IS WRONG.

I explained why I thought others were better options and I also stated my thoughts on Maltby and none of them were negative or bashing.

You have this uncanny ability to take a person's post and twist their words all around to help your argument.

I have nothing against him personally, I just think their are better options, the same way others think about Cheli.

To me when you state someone should be in the press box, that is the equivalent of saying that they're useless as a regular, and should be a healthy scratch. It sounds like you want him gone since you think there are better options.

Also, I never said that you had anything against him personally or wanted him gone because he's Maltby. Why call me out for something I never said, and then tell me that I can't comprehend?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Yes because the demand for a 37 year old pk specialist with limited to no upside is in such a high demand Holland must have suitors lined up all over the place.

Now you say loyalty, a little while ago it was his defensive ability, this is like the enforcer thing you go round and round, first it is necessary to win, then it isn't but you want it for entertainment, then it is pride.

Do me a favor and make up your mind, then we can have a discussion about it, until you state your opinion about something and stick to it for more than 3 posts I am done!

God, you're worse than a woman.

I already stated that his PK is part of it, but that Holland's loyalty is still the biggest reason for why he's here. Show me where I contradicted that.

Now write that on a piece of paper and glue it to your wall, so that you won't be so damn confused.

Edited August 13, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[dobbles 252]

fact of the matter is that this team keeps getting stronger at forward and maltby continues to decline due to age. sure the guy still has positives to offer, but many can be replaced by other players. additionally, that just means less time for younger players with a future here.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Why is there even a topic about Maltby? It doesn't really matter how subpar his play is. He'll still be a Red Wing. Even if it means hes pulling 13th forward duty (and don't get your hopes up cause that won't be happening this season.)

For all intents and purposes, Maltby has a virtual no-trade clause, as hes nearly a lifetime Red Wing and has a reasonable contract. And its because of Holland's handling of situations like these that the Red Wings are able to retain players, ask players to take paycuts, and attract free agents who in most cases have more lucrative offers on the table. Detroit is an organization founded on class and loyalty, and essentially throwing Maltby away would reflect incredibly poorly on this club.

The damage it would do to Detroit's image to waive or trade Maltby would be more sizeable than Maltby playing 10-13th forward minutes for the Wings.

[Peleshob 0]

The damage it would do to Detroit's image to waive or trade Maltby would be more sizeable than Maltby playing 10-13th forward minutes for the Wings.

I think this is basically why Maltby is still around. It's just how the Red Wings do business. Quite frankly, at this point, I think that both Maltby and Mac done have very much use. There's a mixture of nostalgia, leadership and loyalty that keep them around. I think the jury is out on Kopecky, though, and that this upcoming season will hopefully change my opinion of him. While it would be nicer to see a guy with Helm's youth and speed take over one of the spots it really is the Red Wings' loyalty to their players that makes them an attractive team to play for.