When considering the final forward spots....

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Wrong. It was Modano who scored the 2nd goal on the PP, Sammy wasn't on the ice.

Yes Modano had the GWG but Morrow made the game 3-1 with 5 minutes left basically solidifying the game. Here's an exerpt:

"Morrow scored an insurance marker with 5:26 left following another Detroit turnover as Mikael Samuelsson failed to clear the defensive zone."

[Opie 308]

Yes Modano had the GWG but Morrow made the game 3-1 with 5 minutes left basically solidifying the game. Here's an exerpt:

"Morrow scored an insurance marker with 5:26 left following another Detroit turnover as Mikael Samuelsson failed to clear the defensive zone."

Got a link, I googled game 4 and cannot find anything like that, it all says after a pass from Ribeiro?

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Got a link, I googled game 4 and cannot find anything like that, it all says after a pass from Ribeiro?

Yep, from this very site: http://www.letsgowings.com/index.php/Stanl...Game-4-win.html

[Konnan511 1,736]

Is this turning into a witch hunt now?

[Opie 308]

EDIT: Sorry, read that sentence wrong ignore what I first wrote here!

Either way you were right, but Rafalski's turnover led to the game winner, who is to blame for losing the game?

My point is turnovers happen, Sammy has had so many that you can find one that led to a goal. I can find a video of Lids putting one in the back of his own net.

What does that prove, mistakes happen. If Sammy is so turnover proned why then can you not find one from every game, from half of the games he played, a quarter of the games? Because you exaggerated when you said

Do you watch hockey? This post just lost all credibility. Samuelsson turns the puck over more often than not when he has possession.

My counter point to your statement would be that Sammy was a + player, if he turned it over more than he had possession he would have a -, and furthermore on a puck possession team like Detroit if he turned the puck over more than he possessed it, he would be off of the team instead of receiving praise from his coach.

But you go on hating the guy for whatever reason you have and I will continue rooting for the team not for or against the players.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Opie

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

EDIT: Sorry, read that sentence wrong ignore what I first wrote here!

Either way you were right, but Rafalski's turnover led to the game winner, who is to blame for losing the game?

My point is turnovers happen, Sammy has had so many that you can find one that led to a goal. I can find a video of Lids putting one in the back of his own net.

What does that prove, mistakes happen. If Sammy is so turnover proned why then can you not find one from every game, from half of the games he played, a quarter of the games? Because you exaggerated when you said

My counter point to your statement would be that Sammy was a + player, if he turned it over more than he had possession he would have a -, and furthermore on a puck possession team like Detroit if he turned the puck over more than he possessed it, he would be off of the team instead of receiving praise from his coach.

But you go on hating the guy for whatever reason you have and I will continue rooting for the team not for or against the players.

Not saying that his +/- isn't impressive, but to say that his turnovers would lead to negatively affecting his +/- isn't always the case. Keep in mind, he has world-class defenseman and wingers playing around and behind him. I'm not claiming that his turnovers have all led to goals and no I didn't go searching to remember that particular instance, it was one of many.

With that logic, how could you not assume that given his turnovers that his +/- could not have been 40 had he not turned it over so much. The statistic of +/- can be terribly misunderstood given a variety of circumstance (take it for what it was... but in about 21 or 22 games with Pittsburgh, Sammy was a -21 I believe).

There's a reason people usually end up with a better +/- on a good team and that alone proves why the stat is a little bit vague.

With all that said, this could go on forever. Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited September 23, 2008 by DatsyukownzU13

[Opie 308]

Not saying that his +/- isn't impressive, but to say that his turnovers would lead to negatively affecting his +/- isn't always the case. Keep in mind, he has world-class defenseman and wingers playing around and behind him. I'm not claiming that his turnovers have all led to goals and no I didn't go searching to remember that particular instance, it was one of many.

With that logic, how could you not assume that given his turnovers that his +/- could not have been 40 had he not turned it over so much. The statistic of +/- can be terribly misunderstood given a variety of circumstance (take it for what it was, but in about 21 or 22 games with Pittsburgh Sammy was a -21 I believe).

There's a reason people usually end up with a better +/- on a good team and that alone proves why the stat is a little bit vague.

With all that said, this could go on forever. Let's just agree to disagree.

Oh I agree +/- is a misleading stat, for instance he was a -21 on a pre-Crosby post-Lemieux/Jagr Pens. On those teams even Lids would struggle to get a +.

You may be one of the few posters on here that ***** about Sammy and actually be able to back it up. Most of the time people just rag on him because it is the in thing to do.

But your statement was that he turns it over more often than he keeps it on his stick, is absurd and you have no way to prove it and I have no way to disprove it, that is why you used it.

Does he turn it over a lot, yeah, but like stated most of the time it is in the offensive zone, which also helps why his +/- doesn't sag, players behind him.

But to flat out deny that he does any good is absurd, his two unassisted goals set the tone for the SCF series. His secondary scoring was needed, his ability to play all 4 lines, plus PP point has helped the wings more than any of his turnovers or wide shots have hurt them.

You have no use for Sammy on your team but yet Maltby you see viably because of all things he hits?

Lets say you take Sammy out and you replaced him with Maltby, who plays the second line, Huds? Maltby? Drake?

My whole stance with Sammy is not that I think he is great or irreplaceable but that he is a solid player making less than he should and he produces at a clip that Maltby only did for a very short period of time, and if you want to talk about talent around you making you better, Malts is example 1!

Sammy does what is needed of him, no more no less. He provided scoring depth when in actuality he was brought on board for defensive play. His coach tells him to shoot more, he shoots more.

What is it you expect from the guy, a power forward, a sniper, an all-star?

The guy is by very definition of the term a top 6 forward on a Stanley cup winning roster, that is all I ask of him. (he is top 6 for forwards on this team)

But sure we disagree on it, that doesn't mean that I will stop posting about it.

[Detroit Dan 0]

Regular Season:

Samuelsson +21

Maltby -8

Playoffs:

Samuelsson +8

Maltby E

Dallas Drake was a horrible -12 during the regular season, but improved to +2 in playoffs.

[Dabura 12,232]

I actually believe Sammy will be a salary cap casualty especially if a guy like Leino or Abdelkader shows the goods.

Neither Ville Leino nor Justin Abdelkader is going to replace Sammy this season. Those guys are gunning for a spot on the energy line, and they may very well not even make the cut this season. Sammy has secured a spot on the checking line. The swap wouldn't make sense from a tactical standpoint. Further, Sammy may not be playing on the second line, but that doesn't suddenly make him totally expendable. He -- a guy who did just fine on a secondary scoring line but is actually a checker by make -- is going to help make the checking line a very dynamic one, one that is very responsible in the defensive zone, but also very effective and very dangerous in the o-zone. That's called depth, the proven kind that you can rely on -- as opposed to, for example, sticking Leino on the second line just because you can.

Bottom line, the Sammy hate is old and inane. We might as well be trashing racial minorities. Of the players "on the roster now," Maltby is looking like the weakest link.

[Opie 308]

Dabura,

You should know that I off all people am not a Sammy basher, my point to trading him would be for salary cap only, same with my feeling about Lilja, if money was not a question neither (IMO) would need to be traded.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Regular Season:

Samuelsson +21

Maltby -8

Playoffs:

Samuelsson +8

Maltby E

Dallas Drake was a horrible -12 during the regular season, but improved to +2 in playoffs.

He also played on a checking line the entire season thus making him more likely to have a minus rating than he would a plus, especially given the matchup situation on road games.

[Dabura 12,232]

I know, but even in terms of cap space, gutting Sammy doesn't make much sense -- and certainly not for a couple of the reasons you seemed to be implying, such as Sammy's role on the PP being his defining contribution right now, which it's not. Unless I was reading you wrong. Either way, my points still stand.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Oh I agree +/- is a misleading stat, for instance he was a -21 on a pre-Crosby post-Lemieux/Jagr Pens. On those teams even Lids would struggle to get a +.

You may be one of the few posters on here that ***** about Sammy and actually be able to back it up. Most of the time people just rag on him because it is the in thing to do.

But your statement was that he turns it over more often than he keeps it on his stick, is absurd and you have no way to prove it and I have no way to disprove it, that is why you used it.

Does he turn it over a lot, yeah, but like stated most of the time it is in the offensive zone, which also helps why his +/- doesn't sag, players behind him.

But to flat out deny that he does any good is absurd, his two unassisted goals set the tone for the SCF series. His secondary scoring was needed, his ability to play all 4 lines, plus PP point has helped the wings more than any of his turnovers or wide shots have hurt them.

You have no use for Sammy on your team but yet Maltby you see viably because of all things he hits?

Lets say you take Sammy out and you replaced him with Maltby, who plays the second line, Huds? Maltby? Drake?

My whole stance with Sammy is not that I think he is great or irreplaceable but that he is a solid player making less than he should and he produces at a clip that Maltby only did for a very short period of time, and if you want to talk about talent around you making you better, Malts is example 1!

Sammy does what is needed of him, no more no less. He provided scoring depth when in actuality he was brought on board for defensive play. His coach tells him to shoot more, he shoots more.

What is it you expect from the guy, a power forward, a sniper, an all-star?

The guy is by very definition of the term a top 6 forward on a Stanley cup winning roster, that is all I ask of him. (he is top 6 for forwards on this team)

But sure we disagree on it, that doesn't mean that I will stop posting about it.

Ugh, was kinda hoping it would just end with that "agree to disagree", but I can't turn this down.

First of all, never did I say that Sammy was not any good. Yes, I was at the game of the Stanley Cup Finals in which Sammy played exceptionally well and single-handedly got us a dubya. Yes, I'm aware that he has had an upper 20 goal season, that he plays the point (although I do think that others are more suited for this spot), etc...

I totally agree with the concept of getting rid of Matlby, but do I think it would happen? No, Maltby is on the same level as Draper and unfortunately neither will leave the team until it's on their own terms (i.e. Chelios). If I had my choice between Maltby and Samuelsson for the 4th line, I would pick Samuelsson in a second. I just don't think it's realistically an option.

On the other hand, I fully believe that Holland would consider moving Sammy, so that's why I kinda of rag on him more than others that could (deservedly) be moved to other teams.

What is it you expect from the guy, a power forward, a sniper, an all-star?

You're right, I don't expect any of that. But I most definitely think he is expendable and that a younger, more promising player with offensive upside could be put in that position and developed for future years when the present "power forward, sniper, all-star" is on the decline.

For the record, I agree with most of what you say. A lot of it is a matter of opinion, though.

[Detroit Dan 0]

So our 4th line was weak last year, with:

Maltby -8

Drake -12

Draper -2

Can't blame Draper, as he was almost even in spite of having to play with Maltby and Drake so much.

With Hossa replacing Drake, Kopecki will probably join Draper on 4th line. We need to get Helm in there in place of Maltby. There is no excuse for having such a weak link on such a loaded squad. Maltby is a great guy and has been valuable over the years. Leave him on the team as the 13th forward, I guess.

[Dabura 12,232]

never did I say that Sammy was not any good.

a 37 year old walking relic of a ******.

Has Holland considered moving Sammy? Surely. Is he still considering moving Sammy? Quite possibly. Will he ultimately move Sammy? Don't count on it.

This team, this organization is built on familial loyalty. Sammy, a checking-line forward who's not even a product of the NA hockey system, was asked to overachieve like mad and rack up of a ton of points on the Wing's secondary scoring line, all for only $1.2m -- relative peanuts for his job. He followed orders and delivered. Now he's being cast in the role he was born to play, a role that's going to go a pretty long way in making the Wings' top-12 attack a very dynamic, dangerous one. Replacing him with Justin Abdelkader would weaken the top-12 corps. Replacing him with Leino would not be prudent.

Having said what I've said about loyalty, I don't expect Maltby to be shipped. Odds are, management and Babs are going to say to themselves something like "Look, we have promising youngsters, but Samuelsson is the safer bet. There's no rush with a guy like Abdelkader. No one expects him to be on the team this season. Leino can wait -- he's still new to NA hockey anyway. As far as getting under the cap, it would make more sense to, say, cut Lilja free than to cut, say, Samuelsson and Lebda."

Edited September 23, 2008 by Dabura

[Opie 308]

I know, but even in terms of cap space, gutting Sammy doesn't make much sense -- and certainly not for a couple of the reasons you seemed to be implying, such as Sammy's role on the PP being his defining contribution right now, which it's not. Unless I was reading you wrong. Either way, my points still stand.

I in no way shape or form and condoning it, I guess the reason I point out that he is trade able is because I was the only one who wasn't bashing him during the season(at least that is how I felt). Having said that, I feel the need to express my willingness to see him traded, so people don't think I am a flat out slappy. Sorry if that confused you, I am more saying I could see it happen more than I would see it happening last year, but worded it poorly.

Ugh, was kinda hoping it would just end with that "agree to disagree", but I can't turn this down.

First of all, never did I say that Sammy was not any good. Yes, I was at the game of the Stanley Cup Finals in which Sammy played exceptionally well and single-handedly got us a dubya. Yes, I'm aware that he has had an upper 20 goal season, that he plays the point (although I do think that others are more suited for this spot), etc...

I totally agree with the concept of getting rid of Matlby, but do I think it would happen? No, Maltby is on the same level as Draper and unfortunately neither will leave the team until it's on their own terms (i.e. Chelios). If I had my choice between Maltby and Samuelsson for the 4th line, I would pick Samuelsson in a second. I just don't think it's realistically an option.

On the other hand, I fully believe that Holland would consider moving Sammy, so that's why I kinda of rag on him more than others that could (deservedly) be moved to other teams.

What is it you expect from the guy, a power forward, a sniper, an all-star?

You're right, I don't expect any of that. But I most definitely think he is expendable and that a younger, more promising player with offensive upside could be put in that position and developed for future years when the present "power forward, sniper, all-star" is on the decline.

For the record, I agree with most of what you say. A lot of it is a matter of opinion, though.

That is a much different tone than the other posts, however it is all a matter of opinion, and we do have different opinions. Your ability to say it is an opinion is a lot different than most people on here that say I can't see or I am deluding myself.

BTW, I have no problem with Maltby being on the team, it just bothers me that he skates (no pun intended) by adding very little to the team while people bash Sammy constantly.

I have plenty of faith in Holland, Babcock, and company.

Either way enjoy the season and LET"S GO WINGS!!!

[hckypete96 3]

jesus christ u guys need to calm down its like you havent seen a hockey game in so long and are so frusturated so you're taking it out on each other!! take the tamp on out and go wings!

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Has Holland considered moving Sammy? Surely. Is he still considering moving Sammy? Quite possibly. Will he ultimately move Sammy? Don't count on it.

This team, this organization is built on familial loyalty. Sammy, a checking-line forward who's not even a product of the NA hockey system, was asked to overachieve like mad and rack up of a ton of points on the Wing's secondary scoring line, all for only $1.2m -- relative peanuts for his job. He followed orders and delivered. Now he's being cast in the role he was born to play, a role that's going to go a pretty long way in making the Wings' top-12 attack a very dynamic, dangerous one. Replacing him with Justin Abdelkader would weaken the top-12 corps. Replacing him with Leino would not be prudent.

Having said what I've said about loyalty, I don't expect Maltby to be shipped. Odds are, management and Babs are going to say to themselves something like "Look, we have promising youngsters, but Samuelsson is the safer bet. There's no rush with a guy like Abdelkader. No one expects him to be on the team this season. Leino can wait -- he's still new to NA hockey anyway. As far as getting under the cap, it would make more sense to, say, cut Lilja free than to cut, say, Samuelsson and Lebda."

Firstly, one phrase was an obvious joke trying to get some laughs while the other was a realistic comment mid-argument. My stance on Samuelsson = he's OK at what he does (minus the frequent turnovers and unwarranted shots), but I don't think it's advantageous to the Wing's roster to keep him on it... therefore I wan't him traded for a prospect or a draft pick that would add to the future (as well as providing a spot to develop NHL-ready players that have the same skill-set, if not more than he does).

Next, there is nothing to judge Leino off of besides his performance in Camp and his past success in the Finnish Elite League. Both (from the sounds of it) have been highly successful and promising. Leino and Abdelkader are both much more natural skaters than Samuelsson and I think both could develop into being much more capable 2nd or 3rd line players (and Abdelkader actually uses his god-given frame).

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

I have plenty of faith in Holland, Babcock, and company.

Either way enjoy the season and LET"S GO WINGS!!!

Amen.

[Konnan511 1,736]

I in no way shape or form and condoning it, I guess the reason I point out that he is trade able is because I was the only one who wasn't bashing him during the season(at least that is how I felt). Having said that, I feel the need to express my willingness to see him traded, so people don't think I am a flat out slappy. Sorry if that confused you, I am more saying I could see it happen more than I would see it happening last year, but worded it poorly.

That is a much different tone than the other posts, however it is all a matter of opinion, and we do have different opinions. Your ability to say it is an opinion is a lot different than most people on here that say I can't see or I am deluding myself.

BTW, I have no problem with Maltby being on the team, it just bothers me that he skates (no pun intended) by adding very little to the team while people bash Sammy constantly.

I have plenty of faith in Holland, Babcock, and company.

Either way enjoy the season and LET"S GO WINGS!!!

Let's Go Red Wings!!!!!!!! duh duh duhduhduh

[Opie 308]

jesus christ u guys need to calm down its like you havent seen a hockey game in so long and are so frusturated so you're taking it out on each other!! take the tamp on out and go wings!

Hey next time you want to call me a ragging ***** on an internet forum, at least have something interesting to add to the discussion.

That is my opinion, I welcome yours!

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Hey next time you want to call me a ragging ***** on an internet forum, at least have something interesting to add to the discussion.

That is my opinion, I welcome yours!

Word, the point of message boards is discussion. They wouldn't be fun if it wasn't for a healthy argument here and there.

[Opie 308]

Word, the point of message boards is discussion. They wouldn't be fun if it wasn't for a healthy argument here and there.

Also, I didn't take it as we were yelling at each other, just expressing opinions. Then some one reading everything post-post tells me to calm down, that always cracks me up.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Abdelkader actually uses his god-given frame

USELESS KNOWLEDGE WARNING: Did you know that his senior year of HS his teammates called him Apple-Fritters (guess it does sound like Abdelkader) because of how much weight he put on to get a larger frame. Fact.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I know, but even in terms of cap space, gutting Sammy doesn't make much sense -- and certainly not for a couple of the reasons you seemed to be implying, such as Sammy's role on the PP being his defining contribution right now, which it's not. Unless I was reading you wrong. Either way, my points still stand.

I agree. I may hate Sammy's shinpad and goalie jersey assassinating ways, but he's definitely a good bargin. He provides ~40pts and a solid defensive game for less than 1.5 million. That's one hell of a bargin in the cap era*.

Sammy's biggest problems are:

1. He doesn't use his body. He plays less physically than Jiri Hudler but he's 6'1".

2. He shoots randomly and without warning. His shooting percentage is horrible. He just doesn't need to fire pucks off randomly. When he doesn't shoot it's systemic- he'll hold the puck far too long during one block of games, then the next month he's shooting too often. There's apparently no happy medium for Sammy. It's either take 7 shots a game or take 0. (note that 7 shots a game is a good thing... when they hit the net)

3. He refuses to tell Babcock he's a terrible 2nd pp pointman. He may have a heavy shot, but he doesn't really aim it at the goal and he's not very good at the lateral skating and puck retention you need from a blueliner on a pp.

4. He's easy to mock. So damn easy. He's like the guy you're friends with and really like, but everyone in the group of friends teases him because he makes it too damn tempting.

*unless you're talking about a freshly drafted player who's making rookie money, so no one bring a comparison up like that.