Filpula and Cleary's point totals

[norrisnick 1]

We are legitimately looking at losing our #1, #4, #5 and #6 top point getters right now who also happen to be 4 of our top 7 goal scorers. I don't give a rat's ass about Filppula's potential and defensive play if keeping him means we can't keep at least two out of those 4 (Hossa, Franzen, Samuelsson, Hudler).

Like I told someone on another forum who suggested that with Hudler being on pace for 30-ish goals and 70-ish points we probably can't afford him.

Hudler scores 30/70 you tell Fil to f*** right off and let Helm play 3rd line center next year.

Unless he's scoring at least 50+ points, there is nothing Fil can do defensively that will trump 70 points from Hudler. EDIT - Same goes for Cleary for that matter, but Dan had the foresight to get a NTC in his contract.

[FinRedWing 172]

I'm guessing that the guy that gave him $3M/yr did. And I'm guessing that he hoped Fil would assert himself enough offensively to force Babcock's hand to give him some PP time. If he would do anything remotely dangerous offensively you bet your ass that Babcock would split PP time between Fil and Hudler. As it stands one is tied for the team lead in PP points and the other is tied with the one-eyed man in offense. The one-eyed man that has played 8 fewer games.

Good old NN.

As it's stands one is re-signed to a very loyal organization and the one might not be.

[norrisnick 1]

Good old NN.

As it's stands one is re-signed to a very loyal organization and the one might not be.

That organization is also smart. Ask Willy how loyal the organization is to players that don't live up to new contracts.

[FinRedWing 172]

I honestly don't know if Filppula could get any PP time this season,unless there were multiple injuries or something.

I think the two PP lines where pretty much set in stone early and the only vacancy available has been Homer's place in front of goal.

I just think it's silly to expect huge amount of points this season when Val isn't in our top 6.

Better overall play & good hustle etc? Absolutely.

But not huge amount of points.

Edited December 4, 2008 by FinRedWing

[stormboy 47]

assuming homer is in the lineup, the bottom two lines have been

val-huds-cleary

kopy-draper-malts

correct?

i guess i'm not understanding why there's such a large difference in even-strength ice time between hudler and flipper. huds has about 10:20 ESATIO a game compared to val's roughly 13:40. i would guess that some of that has to do with the fact that because huds is basically playing on the second line on the power play that after a powerplay ends, someone (kopy, maybe?) is bumped to the third line for a shift, meaning that hudler loses, say, one even-strength shift per powerplay shift? if you take huder's overall time (which includes one second of PK time) and compare it to flipper's time without PK time, it's about 310 (huds) to 336, a difference of just over 1:00 per game.

anyway, one could probably talk numbers all day and not really get that much out of it...or at least everyone could take it a different way. i've heard people say that hudler does better when he's getting less TOI, versus when he was playing with like zetterberg and franzen. do you think it's a matchup issue? on the third line he's maybe going against lesser players instead of shut-down lines? also, maybe with less time he's got more jump in his step for the time he is out on the ice? i don't know.

for my part, i've been frustrated with flipper's lack of production, but pleasantly surprised by hudler and yes, even sammy. i always feel like flippula is *almost* there...like he *almost* makes the play every time, you know? which maybe means that he's on the verge of breaking out (which i think i said all last season) or that he'll just never get over that hump. maybe he'll develop--let's hope so. if not, he plays good defense, but would in no way be worth three million a year.

we shall see.

[eva unit zero 271]

I honestly don't know if Filppula could get any PP time this season,unless there were multiple injuries or something.

I think the two PP lines where pretty much set in stone early and the only vacancy available has been Homer's place in front of goal.

I just think it's silly to expect huge amount of points this season when Val isn't in our top 6.

Better overall play & good hustle etc? Absolutely.

But not huge amount of points.

The Wings' top 12 forwards in overall ESTOI, as arranged by ESTOI/G, are as follows:

1: Henrik Zetterberg

2: Johan Franzen

3: Pavel Datsyuk

4: Valtteri Filppula

5: Marian Hossa

6: Mikael Samuelsson

7: Daniel Cleary

8: Tomas Holmstrom

9: Jiri Hudler

10: Kris Draper

11: Tomas Kopecky

12: Kirk Maltby

Claiming Flip's scoring woes to come due to his sitting outside the top six forwards is simply misinformation. If you consider top-six forwards to be those who get the most even-strength ice time, Flip is in. If you include special teams, the list changes to the following:

1: Henrik Zetterberg

2: Pavel Datsyuk

3: Johan Franzen

4: Marian Hossa

5: Daniel Cleary

6: Valtteri Filppula

7: Mikael Samuelsson

8: Tomas Holmstrom

9: Jiri Hudler

10: Kris Draper

11: Tomas Kopecky

12: Kirk Maltby

The argument that Filppula is not used as one of the Wings' top six forwards fails if ice time is your qualifier. He certainly hasn't performed as one of the six best forwards on the team, but that is a separate issue that hopefully will be addressed by the coach either through player improvement or changes made in who gets how much time.

[FinRedWing 172]

The Wings' top 12 forwards in overall ESTOI, as arranged by ESTOI/G, are as follows:

1: Henrik Zetterberg

2: Johan Franzen

3: Pavel Datsyuk

4: Valtteri Filppula

5: Marian Hossa

6: Mikael Samuelsson

7: Daniel Cleary

8: Tomas Holmstrom

9: Jiri Hudler

10: Kris Draper

11: Tomas Kopecky

12: Kirk Maltby

Claiming Flip's scoring woes to come due to his sitting outside the top six forwards is simply misinformation. If you consider top-six forwards to be those who get the most even-strength ice time, Flip is in. If you include special teams, the list changes to the following:

1: Henrik Zetterberg

2: Pavel Datsyuk

3: Johan Franzen

4: Marian Hossa

5: Daniel Cleary

6: Valtteri Filppula

7: Mikael Samuelsson

8: Tomas Holmstrom

9: Jiri Hudler

10: Kris Draper

11: Tomas Kopecky

12: Kirk Maltby

The argument that Filppula is not used as one of the Wings' top six forwards fails if ice time is your qualifier. He certainly hasn't performed as one of the six best forwards on the team, but that is a separate issue that hopefully will be addressed by the coach either through player improvement or changes made in who gets how much time.

But that's just it. Whole team hasn't been that great even strength.

This special teams ice time includes PK,right?

What's that got to do with this?

Surely you're not saying Filppula should score on PK as often as others do on a PP?

I admit he's in a scoring slump,but if anything being outside of top 6 PP forwards has got something to do with it.

[eva unit zero 271]

But that's just it. Whole team hasn't been that great even strength.

This special teams ice time includes PK,right?

What's that got to do with this?

Surely you're not saying Filppula should score on PK as often as others do on a PP?

I admit he's in a scoring slump,but if anything being outside of top 6 PP forwards has got something to do with it.

The Wings' top 12 forwards in overall ESTOI+PPTOI, as arranged by (ESTOI+PPTOI)/G, are as follows:

1: Henrik Zetterberg

2: Johan Franzen

3: Pavel Datsyuk

4: Marian Hossa

5: Mikael Samuelsson

6: Tomas Holmstrom

7: Valtteri Filppula

8: Daniel Cleary

9: Jiri Hudler

10: Kris Draper

10: Tomas Kopecky

12: Kirk Maltby

This is the first method using ice time that shows Filppula outside the top six. It also displays him above Hudler, despite the fact that Hudler has vastly outproduced him offensively during the minutes used in this comparison. The fact that Flip has lost about a minute and a half from the PP compared to his average time from last season might be blamable for his offensive slump, except that he didn't really produce much on the PP last season. And even then, Filppula's time on the PP last year came as a result of injuries to players like Holmstrom, Franzen, Zetterberg, and Cleary, who tended to spend more time on the units normally.

Flip is a good versatile utility forward with the potential to be a first or second line player in a couple seasons. But he needs to prove he has that finishing ability and the real playmaking ability or he won't be anything more than a shutdown center with good hands. His best use to the Wings if he can't become a reliable top-six forward is as another team's second line center because he has good hands, good faceoff skills, and good defensive instincts so they will bet that he can be and might give up some good assets for him. Hudler has already shown he's a top-six caliber sniper and is decent defensively. Certainly not Filppula's level, but better than average.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Well, I thought that was one of Filppula's best games of the season. 2 points and +3.

And the other man in question, Cleary, had 2 goals.

They must be reading LGW...

[norrisnick 1]

assuming homer is in the lineup, the bottom two lines have been

val-huds-cleary

kopy-draper-malts

correct?

i guess i'm not understanding why there's such a large difference in even-strength ice time between hudler and flipper. huds has about 10:20 ESATIO a game compared to val's roughly 13:40. i would guess that some of that has to do with the fact that because huds is basically playing on the second line on the power play that after a powerplay ends, someone (kopy, maybe?) is bumped to the third line for a shift, meaning that hudler loses, say, one even-strength shift per powerplay shift? if you take huder's overall time (which includes one second of PK time) and compare it to flipper's time without PK time, it's about 310 (huds) to 336, a difference of just over 1:00 per game.

anyway, one could probably talk numbers all day and not really get that much out of it...or at least everyone could take it a different way. i've heard people say that hudler does better when he's getting less TOI, versus when he was playing with like zetterberg and franzen. do you think it's a matchup issue? on the third line he's maybe going against lesser players instead of shut-down lines? also, maybe with less time he's got more jump in his step for the time he is out on the ice? i don't know.

for my part, i've been frustrated with flipper's lack of production, but pleasantly surprised by hudler and yes, even sammy. i always feel like flippula is *almost* there...like he *almost* makes the play every time, you know? which maybe means that he's on the verge of breaking out (which i think i said all last season) or that he'll just never get over that hump. maybe he'll develop--let's hope so. if not, he plays good defense, but would in no way be worth three million a year.

we shall see.

Hudler doesn't play in the 3rd period. Babcock for some reason seems to believe that playing the type of hockey that got you a lead in the first place can't continue to work so he goes "prevent" defense and we sit back and get scored on at will because we no longer attack.

Puck possession defense is entirely dependent on trying to do something with the puck. We suck at sitting back and trying to defend. Wings defense when working perfectly is not allowing the opposition to have the puck. We don't do that in the 3rd. That's part of why our 6on5 defense is atrocious. It is way too passive. Be aggressive on the puck and get it out. Don't kill the time in your end. Kill the time in the other end.

[lomekian 201]

assuming homer is in the lineup, the bottom two lines have been

val-huds-cleary

kopy-draper-malts

correct?

i guess i'm not understanding why there's such a large difference in even-strength ice time between hudler and flipper. huds has about 10:20 ESATIO a game compared to val's roughly 13:40. i would guess that some of that has to do with the fact that because huds is basically playing on the second line on the power play that after a powerplay ends, someone (kopy, maybe?) is bumped to the third line for a shift, meaning that hudler loses, say, one even-strength shift per powerplay shift? if you take huder's overall time (which includes one second of PK time) and compare it to flipper's time without PK time, it's about 310 (huds) to 336, a difference of just over 1:00 per game.

anyway, one could probably talk numbers all day and not really get that much out of it...or at least everyone could take it a different way. i've heard people say that hudler does better when he's getting less TOI, versus when he was playing with like zetterberg and franzen. do you think it's a matchup issue? on the third line he's maybe going against lesser players instead of shut-down lines? also, maybe with less time he's got more jump in his step for the time he is out on the ice? i don't know.

for my part, i've been frustrated with flipper's lack of production, but pleasantly surprised by hudler and yes, even sammy. i always feel like flippula is *almost* there...like he *almost* makes the play every time, you know? which maybe means that he's on the verge of breaking out (which i think i said all last season) or that he'll just never get over that hump. maybe he'll develop--let's hope so. if not, he plays good defense, but would in no way be worth three million a year.

we shall see.

I Very much Agree with this...cleary's only starting to get his old pre eye injury jump back, and Flip is indeed the nearly man...he's like 5% away from being a great second line centre...the question is will he ever get that 5%...I guess he's got until the summer to prove it, before cap crunch puts him in danger. Am so pleased for Huds at the mo....seems like as of about march/ april he finally found a role in the team where his great offensive instincts and finishing can flourish without his lack of size and less than fantastic wheels don't hurt the team. Who would have though at this stage he'd has as many points as Z? Good to see Sammy doign well to...he still needs to play bigger, and he'll never be sniper, but he fits well with Zatta and Mule, as he seems to complement them both quite well despite being fairly average at most aspects of the game...

[lomekian 201]

I Very much Agree with this...cleary's only starting to get his old pre eye injury jump back, and Flip is indeed the nearly man...he's like 5% away from being a great second line centre...the question is will he ever get that 5%...I guess he's got until the summer to prove it, before cap crunch puts him in danger. Am so pleased for Huds at the mo....seems like as of about march/ april he finally found a role in the team where his great offensive instincts and finishing can flourish without his lack of size and less than fantastic wheels don't hurt the team. Who would have though at this stage he'd has as many points as Z? Good to see Sammy doign well to...he still needs to play bigger, and he'll never be sniper, but he fits well with Zatta and Mule, as he seems to complement them both quite well despite being fairly average at most aspects of the game...

Ooops i meant as many GOALS as Z!!

[egroen 384]

The difference in even strength time on the ice is about 80 minutes between the two. At around 15 minutes a game, Hudler has produced the same amount of even strength points as Filppula in essentially 5 less games.

[kook_10 1,705]

Flip is a good versatile utility forward with the potential to be a first or second line player in a couple seasons. But he needs to prove he has that finishing ability and the real playmaking ability or he won't be anything more than a shutdown center with good hands. His best use to the Wings if he can't become a reliable top-six forward is as another team's second line center because he has good hands, good faceoff skills, and good defensive instincts so they will bet that he can be and might give up some good assets for him. Hudler has already shown he's a top-six caliber sniper and is decent defensively. Certainly not Filppula's level, but better than average.

I was just looking at his goals over the last year or so on NHL.com (I love that!) and the vast majority of them came from the transition game, which this year has been comparatively struggling. It appears to me that his strengths just may play better against a different opposition defense than they've been seeing lately. He's just going to have to figure out how become a better dump-and-chase forward and create opportunities in offensive zone setups, out of corner scrums, etc because it looks like no team worth their salt is going to let them waltz through the neutral zone anymore.

Does the fact that he's struggling this year make him a bad player? No. Does it mean that he is overpaid? Maybe - his adaptability remains to be seen. I hope so - he's a Wing and I'm Finnish by heritage, so I gotta root for the guy .

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Bashing a player? Can you provide one example of where I bashed Filppula? I called him the most disappointing player on the Red Wings in a thread that is frickin dedicated to Filppula. You took offense to a legitimate questioning of Filppula's production and ran with it. Hudler has outplayed Filppula badly, and so has Cleary with one eye.

Yes, I caught your stats about even strength production. It further proves the theory that Hudler is far outplaying Filppula with less ice time. Hudler is more skilled than Filppula offensively, hence why Hudler gets the power play time and rightfully so.

For the record, Filppula had a very good game last night.

Edited December 5, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I was expecting to see a little more out of Flip this year, but at the same time I thought he would be getting more offensive opportunities regarding ice time.