Convinced yet?

[esteef 2,679]

Not really. You tried to establish a relationship between SJ's physical play and them winning. But, their physical play didn't generate 6 goals. The last two were generated by speed (and poor Detroit D).

So, the Wings played poor defense and they lost.

See? That one is right.

And I still think their physical play helped them win. Nothing you've said here, which is your opinion btw and not fact, has made me think otherwise.

[esteef 2,679]

They are few and far between, but there are many, many middle weight, great character guys out there that if the Wings had just 1 up front, and 1 on the blueline, the entire dynamic of this team would change slightly yet be even more impressive IMO. Having just 2 of these types of players IMO would have that desired "make the whole team feel tougher and bigger" aspect.

I'm not saying I would take all these guys or that they would all be able to function well enough in our system but they "type" of player mold they fit I think would be a welcome addition, even if the guy only fought 3 or 4 times in an entire season, the day in and day out effect of having some toughness in the squad can do wonders for team morale.

Agree 100%. I'm not asking for an ape on skates.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I've re-read this thread completely. I'd say we're pretty mixed on having a more physical team.

One glaring thing I keep noticing is, nobody has a good reason as why we shouldn't bring up Downey.

Also, please, for the love of the Red Wings, give me one reason why Kirk Maltby or Tomas Kopecky deserve a rostor spot right now. It's abundantly clear- Maltby just doesn't belong in the NHL right now and Kopecky, dare I say it, has been a flop (granted the injuries I think took a huge toll here).

I'll give you a great reason - waivers - we bring him up we lose a guy, simple as that. You may say you don't care but that is what a lot of people were saying before it happened to Quincy and now lots of fans are pissed that we let someone go who is playing that great for nothing. It's not just a matter of bringing Downey up we have to send someone down and they would have to go through waivers.

[esteef 2,679]

But the time before it did not and resulted in a much more lopsided loss for the Sharks. What I don't understand is how it proves or shows that it is a better way or that it will result in the Sharks beating the Wings. The Sharks won this time, we won the time before that. The Sharks have won at home against us, we have won at home against the Sharks. The Sharks have beat us after we have had long road trips with tight schedules, we have beat the Sharks after they have had long road trips with tight schedules. I don't see how your statement can be used to extrapolate any "key" to winning just because they happened to win the last game - the same team, playing the same way, didn't do it the game before.

The Sharks and Wings are very similar, this is true. The point I'm making is all things even (which this last game wasn't with Blake and Lukowich out) all the Sharks need to do is turn up the physicality and more times than not, they will beat the Wings. The Wings HAVE to rely on the power play because they can't match the overall Sharks size and toughness. Sure we've got guys like Lilly and Stuart who man up with hits and sometimes fists, but as I've said before, do we really want one of our best PK'ers fighting 4th line scrubs? That should be Kopecky's job. (or someone in his place) The Wings aren't scrubs and they have made progress in the overall area of "team toughness", but compared to the Sharks and Bruins of the league, they still have some way to go...IN MY OPINION.

esteef

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Exactly, but hey, don't post in a thread about it or you'll be labled a doomsdayer overreactor to one loss OMFG!!!!

The fourth line is sucking right now, as has been noted out loud by the coach. Yes they had a good game after he called them out but overall they've been sucking. Why not tinker with the fourth line to see what happens? If the line is not producing and being scored on frequently, it's not "wasting a roster spot". That is all.

esteef

As mentioned before, I wouldn't mind seeing any of Abelkader, Helm, or Downey being called up and seeing what type of reaction that causes.

P.S. Helm was awesome in the post-season last year and even Babcock said that he and Leino were the best players that he ever sent down, why isn't he getting more time?

[Opie 308]

I've re-read this thread completely. I'd say we're pretty mixed on having a more physical team.

One glaring thing I keep noticing is, nobody has a good reason as why we shouldn't bring up Downey.

Also, please, for the love of the Red Wings, give me one reason why Kirk Maltby or Tomas Kopecky deserve a rostor spot right now. It's abundantly clear- Maltby just doesn't belong in the NHL right now and Kopecky, dare I say it, has been a flop (granted the injuries I think took a huge toll here).

Waivers, a player that the Wings value currently more than Downey would have to be exposed to the waiver wire.

I said last year that the long term signing of Malts would hurt the Wings. He is a shadow of his former self.

Draper, whom I didn't think would be as bad, is turning out to not be much more valuable at the momen.

But if you sit Malts in favor of Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey how do you get Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey on the roster?

[esteef 2,679]

Waivers, a player that the Wings value currently more than Downey would have to be exposed to the waiver wire.

I said last year that the long term signing of Malts would hurt the Wings. He is a shadow of his former self.

Draper, whom I didn't think would be as bad, is turning out to not be much more valuable at the momen.

But if you sit Malts in favor of Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey how do you get Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey on the roster?

Kill Maltby!

[ben_usmc 253]

I wish we could send Draper and a 3rd to the Sens for Chris Neil. Then come playoff time have a line of Neil/Helm/Abby

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Hmmm, yes waivers is a *****

[Frozen-Man 144]

The Sharks and Wings are very similar, this is true. The point I'm making is all things even (which this last game wasn't with Blake and Lukowich out) all the Sharks need to do is turn up the physicality and more times than not, they will beat the Wings. The Wings HAVE to rely on the power play because they can't match the overall Sharks size and toughness. Sure we've got guys like Lilly and Stuart who man up with hits and sometimes fists, but as I've said before, do we really want one of our best PK'ers fighting 4th line scrubs? That should be Kopecky's job. (or someone in his place) The Wings aren't scrubs and they have made progress in the overall area of "team toughness", but compared to the Sharks and Bruins of the league, they still have some way to go...IN MY OPINION.

esteef

I agree with you that its not a great idea to have Lilly fighting because he is such a good PK guy and that Kopecky should be doing it (in fact I think they made him take boxing lessons with Downey this summer). However, I'm just not convinced that toughness was what put the Sharks over the top Saturday, we had the lead a good portion of the game and it seemed to me that it was the shoddy defense (especially on the last two goals where the Sharks had breakaways) and poor goal tending (especially on the first couple of goals - just look at the threads about Ozzys poor play), our incredibly poor PK on the road (two PP goals on six chances for a PK of 66%), and giving up 21 shots in the 2nd period (which I don't think has much to do with the Sharks toughness because the Wings pretty much all of last year and this year greatly out-shoot their opponents).

If our D could have stopped give up clear breakaways and we could PK better than 66% our toughness would not even be being discussed. I wish we had a guy like Lucic but we don't and aren't going to get one any time soon and I just don't Downey changes the outcome of that game one bit. Again like you said just my opinion, if I really knew what I was talking about I have a job with an NHL team rather than just watching from my home.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I am glad that we are using games against the Sharks as a measuring stick and not a team like the Islanders.

[esteef 2,679]

I wish we could send Draper and a 3rd to the Sens for Chris Neil. Then come playoff time have a line of Neil/Helm/Abby

A player such as Chris Neil is I think the most common ground this board has with regard to the Wings having/getting a fighter.

esteef

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Agree 100%. I'm not asking for an ape on skates.

I am.

I also want him to drink blood on the bench in between shifts.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Brad Stuart is kind of a mystery to me.

The guy is 6'2, he's from Western Canada, and he doesn't fight. Go figure that one out.

Lilja needs to have a talk with him in the locker room about dropping those gloves from time to time.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Stuart hits hard though, so that's nice

[Ratbastrd 90]

So I read this thread from start to finish and I am not sure what the point is?

Can someone please explain to me exactly how an enforcer on the Wings is going to help them win games against the Sharks and Bruins?

Both the Sharks and Bruins are big, tough teams with a handful of guys who will drop the gloves with just about anybody, Shelley fights the real goons.

I don't think that you are going to intimidate either team with a tough guy. There will be a 1 minute timeout in the midst of the first period where your enforcer fights Shelley or whoever the Bruins dress to fight, and then the game will get right back to what it was before, fast and furious. Team with most goals wins...

I do have to argue a couple of posts I read regarding the Sharks physical play not having an effect on this game. The Sharks physical play is precisely what won them the game. The Wings were skating circles around the sharks, whenever the Sharks sat back and didn't press the physical play and heavy forecheck.

Two of the Sharks 6 goals (1 being the eventual game winner) were scored directly after a big hit (Clowe crushed Kronwall behind the Wings net which led to a turnover that Pavelski eventually scored on, then in the third, Pickles (I think) buried someone against the board in the sharks end which led to the Marleau breakaway/goal (eventual game winner, and not offsides!).

Again, how would an enforcer have changed the outcome of either of those plays or the outcome of the game?

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Ehh, I give up...

All this 'waiver worry' over guys that aren't producing..

... how are you doing Kyle Quincy in LA? Pretty great? Good to hear it! Glad we got those draft picks for him =)

[Electrophile 3,554]

Honestly, I'd rather the Wings beat teams by scoring more goals than having someone on the ice whose sole job it is to beat the s*** out of people. I know that's not what everyone here wants when they say the Wings need an "enforcer", but I'm sure it's what some people want.

With all the rule changes that have been instituted recently in regards to fighting/physicality on the ice, I'd rather just concentrate on the players we do have. An enforcer, at least in my mind, would be more trouble than its worth.

Just my .02.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

So I read this thread from start to finish and I am not sure what the point is?

Can someone please explain to me exactly how an enforcer on the Wings is going to help them win games against the Sharks and Bruins?

Both the Sharks and Bruins are big, tough teams with a handful of guys who will drop the gloves with just about anybody, Shelley fights the real goons.

I don't think that you are going to intimidate either team with a tough guy. There will be a 1 minute timeout in the midst of the first period where your enforcer fights Shelley or whoever the Bruins dress to fight, and then the game will get right back to what it was before, fast and furious. Team with most goals wins...

I do have to argue a couple of posts I read regarding the Sharks physical play not having an effect on this game. The Sharks physical play is precisely what won them the game. The Wings were skating circles around the sharks, whenever the Sharks sat back and didn't press the physical play and heavy forecheck.

Two of the Sharks 6 goals (1 being the eventual game winner) were scored directly after a big hit (Clowe crushed Kronwall behind the Wings net which led to a turnover that Pavelski eventually scored on, then in the third, Pickles (I think) buried someone against the board in the sharks end which led to the Marleau breakaway/goal (eventual game winner, and not offsides!).

Again, how would an enforcer have changed the outcome of either of those plays or the outcome of the game?

Having a tough guy in the lineup can only rub off on the other players to play more physical. Last year the Wings dressed either Downey or McCarty throughout the entire season, and it wasn't a coincidence that they played tougher hockey than they have in a long time as a team.

Whether we would or wouldn't have beaten San Jose the other night isn't the point. The point is that the Sharks are a big, physical team, and the Wings need to play tougher, grittier hockey to beat them in a long series. Having an enforcer can only help that.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

The point is that the Sharks are a big, physical team, and the Wings need to play tougher, grittier hockey to beat them in a long series. Having an enforcer can only help that.

Sup dressing enforcers in the playoffs.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Sup dressing enforcers in the playoffs.

Oh, I forgot that McCarty is not an enforcer just because he played limited minutes in the playoffs. It's hopeless to argue against some of you people when you forget that either Mac or Downey were part of this team last year. Of course an enforcer is not going to get many minutes, but that doesn't mean that he didn't play at all.

Edited January 20, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[ben_usmc 253]

Sup dressing enforcers in the playoffs.

just because someone fights or is an enforcer doesn't mean they can't have other aspects: Lucic, DMac of old, didn't Probie used to be a good player and fighter. For all the people that talk about look at play off time, we had 2/3 guys who would drop the gloves DMac, Lilja and who people seem to be forgetting Drake.

I'm not a person who thinks we just need a goon, although it would be fun. I want someone out there who is going to make someone pay either by fighting or checking when they cheap shot Z. I understand there are very few that can do this and play but why don't we work on getting one of them. Hell Big E is supposed to have a wicked right hand, according to his scouting report. I guess that makes him a goon?

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I don't understand why some people think this team doesn't need an enforcer.

How many Cups have the Wings won without a guy like McCarty or Downey on the roster? None from what I can remember.

This team is not above and beyond in needing an enforcer. Believe me that San Jose has better players than Shelley, who are scratched for every game.

There's a reason why enforcers exist in hockey, and that reason is just as applicable to this team than any other. Last year's Cup win and the growing toughness and grit of this team as the season wore on wasn't a coincidence.

Edited January 20, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[ben_usmc 253]

I don't understand why some people think this team doesn't need an enforcer.

How many Cups have the Wings won without a guy like McCarty or Downey on the roster? None from what I can remember.

This team is not above and beyond in needing an enforcer. Believe me that San Jose has better players than Shelley, who are scratched for every game.

There's a reason why enforcers exist in hockey, and that reason is just as applicable to this team than any other. Last year's Cup win and the growing toughness and grit of this team as the season wore on wasn't a coincidence.

people forget that Drake even played last year. He was a freakin manic out there and didn't exactly drop the gloves all the time but sure as hell made people pay and stuck up for his teamates, same goes with Dmac to a lesser role of course.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Oh, I forgot that McCarty is not an enforcer just because he played limited minutes in the playoffs.

No, I'd say that's quite the definition of an enforcer, playing few minutes. But I'll be perfectly honest with you, I completely forgot Mac was even on this team, it's been so long since we've seen or heard of him. When I read "enforcer" my mind saw "Downey," so you'll have to forgive me for that.