Value of Wings

[Echolalia 2,961]

One of the biggest problems with rating players by skill, is the vast amount of intangibles that comes with how people view a player. There's offensive production, defensive skill, passing, shooting, checking, fighting, position, blocked shots, penalty killing, power play, etc etc etc, and everything is also relative to what role the player is in. Its difficult to compare people of two different skill levels, who's roles are two completely different thing (goal scorer vs penalty killer vs faceoff winner vs whatever) So instead of focusing on doing things that way, and in light of the Wings' predicament of who stays and who goes, I want to know how everyone would rate the Wings based on their value. Essentially how much do you think they bring to to the team over how much of a (potential) hit against the cap they make.

I'm aware that there may be a certain stigma against not rating Zetterberg or Lidstrom first, but seriously give me your honest answers. I really have no idea how I would personally rate everyone, and I think it could be a good idea to determine who is likely to be on the trading block, or not brought back next year, should the Wings need to make room.

[Datsyerberger 279]

1. Lidstrom. Our current captain, one of the best d-men to ever play the game, and still going strong. He could be at 9 mil/yr and would still be a bargain.

2. Datsyuk/Zetterberg. While I firmly believe Datsyuk to be the more skillful player of the two, Zetterberg is a PK beast. Not only that, he seems to the heir apparent to the captaincy. The combined cap hit for these two is 12.7 million... and could easily be 15 million or more on the open market.

3. Rafalski. Another one of the best d-men in the league, currently.. an offensive beast. Could be the #1 on many teams. Throw in the fact he's making 1 mil/yr less than others of a similar skill set and you have another winner.

4. Hossa. 2nd among our forwards in points, and in the same league defensively as Dats and Z. He's an elite player, and if the Wings can manage to retain him without sacrificing too much, will be even more envied than they are now. The only reason I don't put him above Raffi is because Raffi is locked up long term, and because of how much value the Wings put on puck-moving D.

5. Kronwall. Again, that value on puck moving D-men. Though his defense has been questionable in parts of this season, his offense hasn't.. and he turns into a machine in the playoffs, apparently.. putting up points and delivering huge open ice hits. All at 3 mil/yr for 5 years. Probably the least tradeable asset on the Wings that doesn't have an NTC.

6. Franzen. Considering he's our priority right behind a star player like Hossa, that should say a lot. He's large, can drive to the net, deflects pucks, and is no slouch defensively, either. Guy has some moves, too... and he's solid on faceoffs.

7. Holmstrom. Again, a good contract, a dedicated player who takes huge amounts of punishment, and someone other teams hate playing against. I firmly believe that the value he brings to the Wings with his net presence can't be measured by stats.

8. Draper. On the decline, but the guy wears an A for a reason. He's a long-time vet for the Wings, part of its heart and soul. Still an important PKer and awesome on faceoffs.

9. Osgood. Some won't agree with this, and yea, he's in a slump, so I won't blame them. Regardless, he's still our #1, and was a huge part of our previous cup run. I think we'll see him light on fire again in the playoffs, just because clutch playoff performances is part of Ozzie's game. Huge team guy as well.

10. Filppula/Hudler. The value of these guys as compared to eachother is hotly contested here, and I imagine Hudler will end up with a similar contract to Flip's. Right now, one puts up lots of points, the other PKs, and both seem to have a lot of potential. We'll likely only be keeping 1, though.

11. Stuart. Contract strikes about even with his skill level. A capable #3 on most teams and a would-be #2 on some of the poorer ones. A steady d-man with good physical presence who doesn't take a lot of dumb penalties, with no glaring weaknesses.

12. Cleary. Hasn't been scoring quite as much this year, but the guy can pinch into about any line the Wings have, he PKs, and works hard.

13. Sammy. Streaky goal-scorer, but he's still good for 40-50 points, and he's reliable defensively. Frequently attempts to take the #12 slot from Cleary by trying to assassinate his jaw. The fact that he only makes 1.2 million tempts me to put his value higher.

14. Lilja. He's pretty much established his spot as the #5 d-man, especially with his importance on the PK. Compare to similar d-men at 2-3 million.

15. Maltby. This is partly because he's still a decent PKer, and partly because of the value the Wings put on loyalty to their veterans.

16. Conklin. Has been an excellent backup/1B goaltender.. he's no Sawchuck, but you can't complain about the sort of performance he's been giving for under 1 million. Only reason I don't put him higher is because he's a for sure 1 year rental.

17. Chelios. They're paying to keep this guy around to play less than any of the other d-men for more than just his playtime. Tons of intangibles here, or the Wings wouldn't have him.

18. Meech. Even though Lebda is played more now, I think Meech has more future value, and his ability to be the 13th forward has helped greatly with the cap situation.

19. Lebda. #6/7 d-man. Not great, but not terrible either. He fills his role well enough for .65/yr, I guess.

20. Kopecky. Well.. uh.. he helped us get Hossa, right? Right?

21. D-Mac. The old, loveable, limping, half blind dog that you don't quite have the heart to put down yet.

22. Downey. Not a prospect, so I put him here. D-Mac would appear to have been valued over him, but he's a decent enforcer and a great character. Deserves mention, if nothing else, for his enthusiasm despite the knowledge he'd be in the AHL for most/all of the season.

23. Haydar. Again, not a prospect, so he's here. Farthest down on the depth chart, but someone that could theoretically step into the 4th line and play a steady role if the Wings had a lot of injuries.

[Blueliner 69]

21. D-Mac. The old, loveable, limping, half blind dog that you don't quite have the heart to put down yet.

Perfect analogy. lol

[YoungGuns1340 1]

1. Datsyuk - I know its sacrilege to say anyone is more valuable than Lidstrom, but I have 2 reasons for doing this. 1) Datsyuk is going to be part of the Wings future longer than Lidstrom is from this point on and 2) Because of the way our game has changed this year. We have gone from relying on strong defense and breakout passes from the defense to relying on all around offense in general to win us games. This year, we've won more games by operating under a system of "scoring more than the opponent" versus "allowing fewer chances to be scored on". Therefore, in my eyes, our offense has been the game-breaker this year, and Datsyuk runs the offense. Whoever's slumping or isn't connecting with linemates gets back on track with Datsyuk. He can elevate other guys games, and hes versatile. He can score, and he can set up the scorer. He can center a line, and hes an adequate winger. Hes the most valuable guy on this team at this point.

2. Lidstrom - for similar reasons to Datsyuk. He runs our defense, but by the same token, he hasn't been the same "safety net" that we have had in years past. Up until this season, Lidstrom has been more or less infallible, but this year hasn't been the same. The way I see it, this year, whether Lidstrom has been on the ice or not, we still haven't been putting together solid defensive efforts at a consistent clip. With Datsyuk, in my opinion, theres a drastic difference in our offensive potency with his presence vs. his absence. I still think Lidstrom is a Top 5 all-time Dman, but his impact has diminished slightly while Datsyuk's has increased, which I again attribute to the way our :mode of winning" has changed this season.

3. Zetterberg - His elite versatility is what makes him so valuable. Center, winger, goal scorer, or playmaker, defensive, or offensive.

4. Hossa - a step below Hank, because I don't think hes as complete as Hank in terms of his versatility. Namely, I don't think Hossa uses his linemates enough in a playmaking role. And although his pure goal scoring is the best on the team, I think if you have a skilled enough line up with strong enough playmakers - which the Wings do - then you can turn average goal scorers into good goal scorers (see Homer, Franzen, Hudler). Homer - Even though we all know hes underrated, I think hes still underrated beyond that. Specifically, I do NOT think Franzen can simply replace Homer - hes not as good. Franzen may be able to develop into as good of a net-front presence as Homer, but to say he is now isn't doing Homer any justice. Without Homer, our PP is a shell of its powerful self. I honestly think Homer is one of the best assets in the entire NHL. Some people probably think I'm crazy to put him on par with Hossa and Raffi, but in terms of his value to this club, I think its almost unparalleled.

Rafalski - his offensive instincts are incredible. His defense sometimes leaves something to be desired, but Raffi's offense and mobility has a huge impact on our forwards.

5. Hudler, Franzen, Kronwall - I don't think these guys are essential to winning, but each guy does offer a unique asset to the club that we don't already have. Hudler is a playmaking winger with elite offensive instincts that you can't even find in most 2nd line players, let alone 3rd line guys. Franzen's assets have been discussed at length on LGW already and Kronwall, although I think hes overrated, his combination of open ice hitting, mobility, and offense are a unique combination.

6. Lilja - Yes, I think Lilja ranks this high THIS SEASON. Hes been our best defensive Dman - better than Stuart, and on some nights has ben a better PKer than Lidstrom himself. Hes not a huge hitter, but hes our most consistent gritty physical presence, shot-blocker, PKer, and all around reliable defensive Dman.

7. Stuart, Cleary, Filppula, Sammy - The only reason I rank this guys this low is because I think they have more value to OTHER teams than they do to our team. As of now, they're simply great complements to a piece that was great without them. Don't get me wrong - its these guys that IMO put us over the edge in terms of overall talent, skill, and depth, but the roles they play on this team are roles that, in most cases, could be pulled off by at least a couple of other guys elsewhere on the roster.

8. Conklin - Without Conklin, I don't even want to know where we'd be in the standings. Hes done an admirable job splitting time with the shakey Osgood, and while it took some time for Conklin to come around, I rank him higher in value simply because without him, we'd be seeing an Ozzie/Howard tandem that would likely be even shakier than the tandem we have now, and Conklin's ability to play a "split starting" role has been essential.

9. Osgood, Chelios, Draper - Only a step ahead of the other guys because of his faceoff capabilities.

10. Lebda, Meech, and Maltby.

11. Kopecky

[egroen 384]

1. ............

I largely agree with this list - though I would bump Lidstrom ahead of Datsyuk, because while I think they are similar in skill level at this point in their carrers, with Datsyuk maybe starting to eclipse him, Lidstrom still brings a lot more to the team in terms of intangibles.

Finally, I would bump Osgood to the spot ahead of Lilja on your list. Despite his poor season, he brings a ot of intangibles, the guys are comfortable playing in front of him and he was clutch as hell last year in the playoffs -- all for cheap on the dollar.

Edited January 29, 2009 by egroen

[Kira 451]

You would almost have to put Nick and Pasha as kind of 1 and 1A...their value to the team is almost interchangeable and negligible in difference. Running a close second to them would be Henrik.

Beyond that, it would be hard for me to put a value on any of the others...they are, individually, blocks of the quilt, but sewn together, they are the quilt that makes us up. How do you put a value on any one block of the whole thing?

As to who would be the most expendable, I'd have to say McCarty and maybe Tomas Kopecky, though Kopi has his worth. And if Marian walked, it wouldn't break my heart. Don't get me wrong, I love what he's added to the mix, but he's not as crucial as someone like Pasha or Henrik or Nick are.

[spydrwebb 0]

1. Lidstrom. Our current captain, one of the best d-men to ever play the game, and still going strong. He could be at 9 mil/yr and would still be a bargain.

2. Datsyuk/Zetterberg. While I firmly believe Datsyuk to be the more skillful player of the two, Zetterberg is a PK beast. Not only that, he seems to the heir apparent to the captaincy. The combined cap hit for these two is 12.7 million... and could easily be 15 million or more on the open market.

3. Rafalski. Another one of the best d-men in the league, currently.. an offensive beast. Could be the #1 on many teams. Throw in the fact he's making 1 mil/yr less than others of a similar skill set and you have another winner.

4. Hossa. 2nd among our forwards in points, and in the same league defensively as Dats and Z. He's an elite player, and if the Wings can manage to retain him without sacrificing too much, will be even more envied than they are now. The only reason I don't put him above Raffi is because Raffi is locked up long term, and because of how much value the Wings put on puck-moving D.

5. Kronwall. Again, that value on puck moving D-men. Though his defense has been questionable in parts of this season, his offense hasn't.. and he turns into a machine in the playoffs, apparently.. putting up points and delivering huge open ice hits. All at 3 mil/yr for 5 years. Probably the least tradeable asset on the Wings that doesn't have an NTC.

6. Franzen. Considering he's our priority right behind a star player like Hossa, that should say a lot. He's large, can drive to the net, deflects pucks, and is no slouch defensively, either. Guy has some moves, too... and he's solid on faceoffs.

7. Holmstrom. Again, a good contract, a dedicated player who takes huge amounts of punishment, and someone other teams hate playing against. I firmly believe that the value he brings to the Wings with his net presence can't be measured by stats.

8. Draper. On the decline, but the guy wears an A for a reason. He's a long-time vet for the Wings, part of its heart and soul. Still an important PKer and awesome on faceoffs.

9. Osgood. Some won't agree with this, and yea, he's in a slump, so I won't blame them. Regardless, he's still our #1, and was a huge part of our previous cup run. I think we'll see him light on fire again in the playoffs, just because clutch playoff performances is part of Ozzie's game. Huge team guy as well.

10. Filppula/Hudler. The value of these guys as compared to eachother is hotly contested here, and I imagine Hudler will end up with a similar contract to Flip's. Right now, one puts up lots of points, the other PKs, and both seem to have a lot of potential. We'll likely only be keeping 1, though.

11. Stuart. Contract strikes about even with his skill level. A capable #3 on most teams and a would-be #2 on some of the poorer ones. A steady d-man with good physical presence who doesn't take a lot of dumb penalties, with no glaring weaknesses.

12. Cleary. Hasn't been scoring quite as much this year, but the guy can pinch into about any line the Wings have, he PKs, and works hard.

13. Sammy. Streaky goal-scorer, but he's still good for 40-50 points, and he's reliable defensively. Frequently attempts to take the #12 slot from Cleary by trying to assassinate his jaw. The fact that he only makes 1.2 million tempts me to put his value higher.

14. Lilja. He's pretty much established his spot as the #5 d-man, especially with his importance on the PK. Compare to similar d-men at 2-3 million.

15. Maltby. This is partly because he's still a decent PKer, and partly because of the value the Wings put on loyalty to their veterans.

16. Conklin. Has been an excellent backup/1B goaltender.. he's no Sawchuck, but you can't complain about the sort of performance he's been giving for under 1 million. Only reason I don't put him higher is because he's a for sure 1 year rental.

17. Chelios. They're paying to keep this guy around to play less than any of the other d-men for more than just his playtime. Tons of intangibles here, or the Wings wouldn't have him.

18. Meech. Even though Lebda is played more now, I think Meech has more future value, and his ability to be the 13th forward has helped greatly with the cap situation.

19. Lebda. #6/7 d-man. Not great, but not terrible either. He fills his role well enough for .65/yr, I guess.

20. Kopecky. Well.. uh.. he helped us get Hossa, right? Right?

21. D-Mac. The old, loveable, limping, half blind dog that you don't quite have the heart to put down yet.

22. Downey. Not a prospect, so I put him here. D-Mac would appear to have been valued over him, but he's a decent enforcer and a great character. Deserves mention, if nothing else, for his enthusiasm despite the knowledge he'd be in the AHL for most/all of the season.

23. Haydar. Again, not a prospect, so he's here. Farthest down on the depth chart, but someone that could theoretically step into the 4th line and play a steady role if the Wings had a lot of injuries.

1-15 is spot on... toss up after that. good to see not everyone is throwing ozzie to the dogs. he'll make a believer out of all of us, including the critics, come crunch time.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

1-15 is spot on... toss up after that. good to see not everyone is throwing ozzie to the dogs. he'll make a believer out of all of us, including the critics, come crunch time.

It has nothing to do with throwing Ozzie to the dogs. Goaltenders in general, in my opinion, aren't as valuable as other key players, especially on a Wings team. I would put the guys that insulate our goaltending ahead of our goaltending itself. Theres a reason the Red Wings don't employ elite or even great goaltenders - when they're on their game, they shouldn't really need to be of key value.

To me, the value of OUR goaltending speaks more to the system that the Wings play than it does to the individual goaltenders themselves. You could say that for most NHL goaltenders if they were in a Wings jersey.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Franzen

Hudler

Datsyuk

Lidstrom

Zetterberg

Hossa

Rafalski

Holmstrom

Samuelsson

Kronwall

Osgood

Lilja

Conklin

Lebda

Draper

Stuart

Chelios

Kopecky

Meech

Filppula

Cleary

Maltby

McCarty

Helm

Edited January 29, 2009 by Echolalia