Need to get Hudler/Franzen signed long term.

[wingslionstigers 12]

I'm pretty sure if he comes back he will probably take less.

But go take a look at the teams in the top of the standings. These teams have depth and thats why they are at the top of the standings. They have no more than 2 super star forwards. All of the teams that choose to sign that extra super star over depth have failed and or are failing.

3-4 good lines wins cups. Not 1 super star line and a 2nd line with 1 super star and 2 AHL players.

Edited February 3, 2009 by wingslionstigers

[up2here 41]

I'm pretty sure if he comes back he will probably take less.

But go take a look at the teams in the top of the standings. These teams have depth and thats why they are at the top of the standings. They have no more than 2 super star forwards. All of the teams that choose to sign that extra super star over depth have failed and or are failing.

3-4 good lines wins cups. Not 1 super star line and a 2nd line with 1 super star and 2 AHL players.

Val Filppula and your beloved Jiri Hudler were both "AHL" players along with a long line of NHL superstars. Dont knock a guy because he plays there.

[wingslionstigers 12]

I'm not knocking a guy because he plays there? I'm saying your going to have a 2nd line fresh out of the AHL. I'm saying your team with Hossa is not going to do as well as a team with Franzen/Huds. The exact same team without Hossa played better than the exact same team with Hossa. We did better last year at this point. Flips, Franz, Hudler, Cleary; none of them guys have a role right now. There just tossed around like tennis balls trying to figure out what one can accommodate Hossa or Datsyuk on the second line. Thats one of the reasons are team isnt performing i believe. Them guys were second line players last year and felt apart of the team. Now its the Dats/Z/Hossa show on 2 lines and lets see who can benefit these guys the most. We don't have no 3rd line. Thats just where the guys that didnt make the cut on line 1a or 1b go for the night to take a shift and let our 2 lines rest. The Red Wings are a 2 line team right now, they try to get the job done with line 1a and 1b every night. Our second and third line had a huge role on the team last year, both them lines were somewhat equal. They both fought hard to be the line to help contribute along side Z&D night in and night out. Thats what were missing this year. We have one to many super star players that steals and hogs the show for the average guys. To many super stars = no good and its been proven many times. Depth is where its at hands down.

[wingslionstigers 12]

You just watch hockey, hockeys apart of me. This might be over your head.

[up2here 41]

You just watch hockey, hockeys apart of me. This might be over your head.

Your opinion differs from mine and if you dont understand that than this is over your head. Ive been watching and playing hockey longer than youve been alive im sure. My hockey pants are probably older than you.

[Z and D for the C 712]

wingslionstigers, you seem like a smart person so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn't actually just attribute this season's poor performance to the addition of Hossa. Without Hossa, this team wouldn't be #1 in the division right now. Look at just last night..without his goals we don't win. There have been many games like that.

[dallas27 7]

You just watch hockey, hockeys apart of me. This might be over your head.

You sound like an idiot by saying this and trying to use it to back your argument.

Franzen is not worth 5.5 mill a season whoever is apart of them rumors are on crack.

This doesn't help either. Especially since there is probably some team out there waiting to offer a big body that can score the amount of goals he does to that type of contract. Guess I'm on crack.

If there was ever to be negotiations of a Hossa contract your talking 4-6 years at 7.3-7.8 a year

How do you know that he isn't willing to take a cap number of 6 million like Zetterberg? Who's to say he sees Zetterberg, who could have got the same amount on the open market as him, and the sacrifice he took and takes a number like that to remain on the team?

Not loose our top prospects to sign guys out of there prime that will only be here for minimal years.

You realize that Hossa is only ONE year older than Franzen correct? I'm afraid you would have to lump Franzen into that category of guys out of their prime as well. I can see Hossa playing for another 5 years at the level he is right now. Same with Franzen. Franzen can only dream about being the hockey player Hossa is however.

The exact same team without Hossa played better than the exact same team with Hossa. We did better last year at this point. Flips, Franz, Hudler, Cleary; none of them guys have a role right now. There just tossed around like tennis balls trying to figure out what one can accommodate Hossa or Datsyuk on the second line. Thats one of the reasons are team isnt performing i believe

The reason why the Wings did better last year at this point compared to this year is because they had a hot goaltender and an actual defense. Two things they are lacking right now.

The only way you get your option is if they trade Filppula. That locks up Franzen and Hudler. But at that point you can feasibly sign Hossa and Hudler, which is the better option, I'd be happy with either one. Since they won't be dealing Filppula, for whatever reason, you're probably looking at Franzen and Sammy. I'm taking Hossa, if the money is right, over them.

[#18 the _Hoss_ 2]

I'm taking Hossa, if the money is right, over them.

[AtomicPunk 296]

You just watch hockey, hockeys apart of me. This might be over your head.

Just remember you never really know who you are talking to on a message board.

Sincerely,

Scotty Bowman

[wingslionstigers 12]

wingslionstigers, you seem like a smart person so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn't actually just attribute this season's poor performance to the addition of Hossa. Without Hossa, this team wouldn't be #1 in the division right now. Look at just last night..without his goals we don't win. There have been many games like that.

I'm not saying Hossa isn't all that. Hossa is great. I'm saying that if Hossa wasn't around in my opinion that guys like Flips, Cleary would be playing better. I know i can't put Huds and Franzen on that list just because they do have alot of points this season. Although i think they would be playing better 2 way all around better hockey. Like i said this teams centered around Hossa, Z, and D up front. There isn't no room for guys like i listed. Them guys have a much smaller role than they would without Hossa around. They would have higher confidences feeling more valuable and feel like they need to be an asset of the team if Hossa wasn't there. To many star players isn't always a good thing, Is what i was trying to say by that.

How do you know that he isn't willing to take a cap number of 6 million like Zetterberg? Who's to say he sees Zetterberg, who could have got the same amount on the open market as him, and the sacrifice he took and takes a number like that to remain on the team?

If he took 6 mill a year ill take him. Not very likely so im not even going to begin to act like its a possibility.

You realize that Hossa is only ONE year older than Franzen correct? I'm afraid you would have to lump Franzen into that category of guys out of their prime as well. I can see Hossa playing for another 5 years at the level he is right now. Same with Franzen. Franzen can only dream about being the hockey player Hossa is however.

Do you realize how much longer Hossa has been playing in the NHL? Hossa is maxed out Franzen is not. We can sign Franzen for the price of a a good player, when he could turn out to be a great player. You sign Hossa you sign a great player for a great players pay. Do you fail to see the advantage down the road your looking at here? This is a salary cap world this is how teams need to be looking to put there team over the top.

The reason why the Wings did better last year at this point compared to this year is because they had a hot goaltender and an actual defense. Two things they are lacking right now.

I disagree. Last year there offense held on to the puck. If you can find the numbers i guarantee you find Detroits "time on attack" was MUCH higher last year than it is this year. Thats the difference. The other team didnt have a chance to score because Detroit had the puck in the O zone the entire game. Detroit out shot their opponents almost every game last year. This year they haven't.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Just remember you never really know who you are talking to on a message board.

Sincerely,

Scotty Bowman

Hahaha that was great.

[Slave 31]

i am starting to doubt more and more that we can get franzen for less the 5-6 a year, was just thinking that a big body that has for the end of last season, the playoff run when he was healthy and this season no matter which line he is on can put the puck in the net, teams will be drooling all over a guy like him, teams witha bunch of cap space like nyisle and la can throw the bank at him, hell even vancouver could use him to center the sedin sisters or their second line, i imagine franzen and his agent know this as well and...not positive on this one cuz franzen has never been one of my favorite wings but someone here said that last contract was a ***** to get done with him and he was a nothing then, well compare to the player he is right now.

I am fairly confident we will lose franzen or hossa, and i am thinking it is mroe likely we lose franzen tbh, not sure why justa gut feeling. Hope we can keep Hudler though, he has been my 3rd favorite wing since yzerman retired, and he only seems to be getting better, he can stick handle he can shoot he can deke he is small but that is the only nock against him, as much as people here think babs rips on him i think babs knows how good he really is. Even with Franzen on the hot streaks, huds still gets called on the shootouts.

[Broken 16 381]

You just watch hockey, hockeys apart of me. This might be over your head.

First of all... this is driving me crazy:

"Hockey is apart of me" = "Hockey is A PART of me"

"If we loose Hudler and Franzen" = "If we LOSE Hudler and Franzen"

Ok, I feel better now...

Nothing against Franzen, but $5.5 a year is too close to Zetterberg money. If that's what Franzen is looking for, he's probably going to get it from another team. I don't think the signing of Franzen and Hudler is nearly as much a done deal as you seem to believe. Especially Franzen. My prediction? Franzen walks.

Hossa, at this point, is a much better all-around player than Franzen, in my opinion. Hossa can win a game almost all by himself. Just look at the St. Louis game last night. Hossa was HUGE. Franzen puts in a lot of goals and is an above average two-way player, but he isn't on the same level as Hossa. Not yet anyway.

Hossa has proven that he can bring the same level of play to whatever team he is a part of. Can the same be said for Franzen?

In an earlier post you made a comparison between this years lineup and last years lineup. Basically saying that the Wings were better last year with the same lineup minus Hossa. Perhaps implying that Hossa has made the team worse? I mean, that's the only way I can read it.

FAIL!!!

This team is VASTLY different than last years team. The only person that hasn't won a Cup (with the exception of a few GR call-ups) is Hossa. You can't just continue to drive the same roster into the playoffs year after year and expect the same results. Things always need to be shaken and stirred. The grind to win the Cup is a HUGE mental burden, especially coming off a Cup winning year. The Wings are always on the lookout for quality free agents who haven't won a Cup. I wouldn't be a bit suprised to see Franzen traded at the deadline (I'm not even sure if he CAN be traded... I'm just rambling at this point). Especially if talks between him and Holland aren't going well.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

I am well aware of our cap situation so please dont talk to me like I'm an idiot,Ive been a Wings fan a long time. I also think Hudler is a 3rd liner but heres a list of upcoming UFA's who would all likely want less than Hudlers expected 3 - 3.5 mil:

Petr Sykora

Brendan Morrison

Jason Williams

Ales Kotalik

Richard Zednik

Doug Weight

Sergei Fedorov

Viktor Kozlov

Im also sure thats not all of them because I just quickly scanned the numbers. Anyone of those players on a one year contract could put up numbers good enough to replace Hudler if it means keeeping Hossa.

LGW posters still continue to amaze me with their complete lack of hockey knoweldge. The fact that you think Hudler is a third liner is laughable, and not one player mentioned there is even remotley close to Hudler's skill and ability to put up points these days.... Think Hudler's Number wouldn't be sick if instead of playing with Filpulla he played with Crosby/Malkin? YEAH? k so be quiet now and stop polluting this thread with nonsence

[TheOwl 77]

Stats don't mean s***, just because hes got about as many points as Zetterberg doesn't mean hes near as good as Zetterberg.

Stats mean everything. The stats don't lie, the stats aren't biased. That being said, Zetterberg is better then Franzen. But for the last 8 months, the stats say they are both playing more or less equally well. 3.5 million for 22 goals? Come on. Cleary is getting 3.5, Flipulla is getting 3.5. And neither of those guys has even had a great season. If those guys weren't around, yeah I would say 3.5 would be a discount. But why should the Mule, the second top goal scorer, and the top goal scorer last play-offs, take as much money as two bench warmers?

[Broken 16 381]

Stats mean everything. The stats don't lie, the stats aren't biased. That being said, Zetterberg is better then Franzen. But for the last 8 months, the stats say they are both playing more or less equally well. 3.5 million for 22 goals? Come on. Cleary is getting 3.5, Flipulla is getting 3.5. And neither of those guys has even had a great season. If those guys weren't around, yeah I would say 3.5 would be a discount. But why should the Mule, the second top goal scorer, and the top goal scorer last play-offs, take as much money as two bench warmers?

He shouldn't and he won't. Which is why I've pretty much already given up on him staying.

[whitneydatsyukrox 0]

On top of that some of you guys are failing to realize Hudler and Franzen are going to get better. There going to be better next season. Hudlers been improving drastically.

I can totally see your point, Hudler is definitely improving every game and is very important to the team. But I feel it should be noted that both Hossa and Franzen were born in 1979, being essentially the same age. While it's true Franzen only came into his own the last year or so, both of their careers are going to last about the same length. There's no obvious advantage of signing Franzen over Hossa LT (apart from the potential $).

[Yzerman191 37]

Why does everyone act like Hudler is so dispensable? He's averaging 13 minutes a game, he's got 40 points in 50 games, and he's on pace for 27 goals and 65 points. Also, he's 25 years old. Take a look at Datsyuk's stats at Hudler's age; you'll see numbers that are very similar. I can see him potentially developing into a world class talent similar to St. Louis. Also, pending a Penner-like offer sheet by another GM, Hudler (who is a RFA) is not going to get 3.5M+ after his first breakout season.

Franzen, on the other hand, could very well be handed an absurd, Malone-esque contract, even with uncertain salary cap times just around the corner. A knack for goal scoring will always be more valuable on the UFA market than almost anything else.

With that said, my dream solution would be to move Flip, and with our remaining 12.4M, I'd like to see a long-term contract for Hudler right around 3M, 4M for Franzen (if he'll go that low), resign Sammy for ~1.2M, 850k for Leino, 550k for Helm, a big guy who can stand up for his teammates for 1-2M, and a backup goalie.

Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen(4)

Leino(.85)-Hudler(3)-Zetterberg

Cleary-Helm(.55)-Sammy(1.2)

Maltby-Draper-Neil(1.5)

I can't see Leino or Helm rotting in the minors another year, but I can't see Abdelkader coming up so early either. Also, for all the hell you guys give Sammy, he's a good role player who can put up around 40 points and is USUALLY defensively sound. Sure, he makes a dumb move here and there, but you get what you pay for.

[AtomicPunk 296]

With that said, my dream solution would be to move Flip, and with our remaining 12.4M, I'd like to see a long-term contract for Hudler right around 3M, 4M for Franzen (if he'll go that low), resign Sammy for ~1.2M, 850k for Leino, 550k for Helm, a big guy who can stand up for his teammates for 1-2M, and a backup goalie.

Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen(4)

Leino(.85)-Hudler(3)-Zetterberg

Cleary-Helm(.55)-Sammy(1.2)

Maltby-Draper-Neil(1.5)

When / How / Where does Neil get plugged into this equation? They have too many forwards as it is. If they just need someone to go thug it up, they can call up Downey.

[Yzerman191 37]

We certainly don't have "too many" forwards. Personally, I'd like to see Kopecky not return. Aside from that, who is there? Abdelkader? I just can't see him getting his shot next year; there are too many guys ahead of him. Downey? Sure, like you said, he can "goon it up", but he can't play much hockey. McCarty? Oh please.

I think Neil would be a great addition to the team. He's a UFA on a terrible Senators team, and one of the few "tough guys" that can play hockey. He contributes a little bit (more than your average 4th liner), fights whenever he's needed to, and is always relatively close to the top of the league in hits when all is said and done. I don't want to make this an argument about enforcers and whether or not we need one, but having one on the team sure couldn't hurt. You think a ***** like Ott is going to pull his usual crap if he knows he's going to have to answer to Neil? What's so bad about him?

[AtomicPunk 296]

We certainly don't have "too many" forwards. Personally, I'd like to see Kopecky not return. Aside from that, who is there? Abdelkader? I just can't see him getting his shot next year; there are too many guys ahead of him. Downey? Sure, like you said, he can "goon it up", but he can't play much hockey. McCarty? Oh please.

I think Neil would be a great addition to the team. He's a UFA on a terrible Senators team, and one of the few "tough guys" that can play hockey. He contributes a little bit (more than your average 4th liner), fights whenever he's needed to, and is always relatively close to the top of the league in hits when all is said and done. I don't want to make this an argument about enforcers and whether or not we need one, but having one on the team sure couldn't hurt. You think a ***** like Ott is going to pull his usual crap if he knows he's going to have to answer to Neil? What's so bad about him?

My problem is that you conveniently forget about players in our system that are already under contracts for one that is not, may not even want to come here, and makes more than 2 or 3 of them put together. Where do those 4-5 players disappear to? Who is ahead of Abdelkader?

Edited February 4, 2009 by AtomicPunk

[Yzerman191 37]

Who did I conveniently forget about to add Neil? Hossa? There's no way we can afford him in my dream scenario (if we were to keep Hudler and Franzen). Flip? I made a point of saying that I'd like to see him traded as it gives us wiggle room, and the ability to have more depth and cap room. Aside from that, the only current forwards on our roster I left out were Kopecky, Downey, and Abdelkader, all of which I gave reasons for.

When was the last time the Red Wings brought up three unproven rookies all at the same time? Leino is going to bolt if he's not in the NHL next year (plus he's 25 years old), and Helm has been waiting for a helluva lot longer than Abdelkader. Also, to bring a rookie up at 21 is semi early for the 'Wings; they always let them mature a bit longer than other teams, and it seems to work. I just don't see Abdelkader being likely for next year.

[up2here 41]

LGW posters still continue to amaze me with their complete lack of hockey knoweldge. The fact that you think Hudler is a third liner is laughable, and not one player mentioned there is even remotley close to Hudler's skill and ability to put up points these days.... Think Hudler's Number wouldn't be sick if instead of playing with Filpulla he played with Crosby/Malkin? YEAH? k so be quiet now and stop polluting this thread with nonsence

Dont insult my hockey knowledge becaused your opinion differs from mine,thats childish and immature. Also i am aware none of those players are quite as good as Hudler but if it means keeping Hossa then I'll take the 10-15 less points they score than Huds and keep one of the 10 best players in the entire league. As for Hudlers points if were playing on the one of top 2 lines,he has had many chances to play on those top lines and has ended up back on the third line every time. He is too small to match up against the rest of the leagues top 2 lines in my opinion.

Edited February 4, 2009 by UP2HERE

[wingslionstigers 12]

Dont insult my hockey knowledge becaused your opinion differs from mine,thats childish and immature. Also i am aware none of those players are quite as good as Hudler but if it means keeping Hossa then I'll take the 10-15 less points they score than Huds and keep one of the 10 best players in the entire league. As for Hudlers points if were playing on the one of top 2 lines,he has had many chances to play on those top lines and has ended up back on the third line every time. He is too small to match up against the rest of the leagues top 2 lines in my opinion.

You have no hockey knowledge. You just proved it.

[KrazyGangsta 79]

Not another thread ... the best solution to this is :

1- Trade Flip ... give his contract Hudler ... You get to keep Hudler

2- Re-Sign Hossa

3- Let Franzen walk

4- Let Sammy walk

5- Make Helm and Leino starters

Now you keep Hudler and Hossa, and you still have room in the cap ... You've got 2 starters that will be part of your core including Hossa - Hudler - Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom

What the lines would look like

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Hossa

Leino - Zetterberg - Hudler

Cleary - Helm - Adkel

Maltby - Draper - Downey

Lidstrom Stuart

Rafalski Ericsson

Kronwall Lilja