GM's want to give 10 minute misconduct penalty for fighting

[hooon 1,089]

i understand the argument... but i simply can't see this being effective and have a positive impact on the nhl. All this will do is slow down the game, cause MORE frustration, etc. The only thing i agree with is in regards to players wearing facemasks. I think if players fight with masks on they should be fined or suspended or assessed a higher penalty.

But otherwise... you simply can't take the fighting out of hockey, its too much a part of it. Everyone here knows its more than just two pissed off guys battling it out... there is a huge team element with fighting and it can be a difference maker for a team. just my thoughts

[YoungGuns1340 1]

So we should take away the staged fights - the ones that are typically between a pair of established fighters, who know are prepared to fight.....

....but keep the spontaneous fights in the game where guys like Jordin Tootoo don't even square up before laying the beat down on someone?

Awesome logic.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't think they should change a thing.

It is beyond tragic what happened to Don Sanderson, but it didn't happen in the NHL, and if sports were to base their rules and rule changes on freak accidents that occured at a recreational/amateur level every game would change as we know it.

You would have football making rule changes based on freak accidents in high school games, Baseball would change how we know it if amateur/rec level accidents dictated the MLB's rulebook, etc.

What happened to Sanderson is absolutely, and unequivocally nightmarish -- something that no family should have to go through. But with that said, what was he doing even fighting in a senior league? And do the actions of guys who play hockey part time, or purely for recreation really deserve a hand in the NHL decision making process?

I do.

Get rid of the instigator rule. Instead the morons are going the other way on this issue. The NHL has this sadomasochistic obsession with pissing off its own fans. Keep up the good work Bettman.

[Guest NumbaSixty-Six]

I do.

Get rid of the instigator rule. Instead the morons are going the other way on this issue. The NHL has this sadomasochistic obsession with pissing off its own fans. Keep up the good work Bettman.

Maybe they do it all to piss you off on purpose. I wish I could follow you around and scream and tell everyone the mistakes you make. (yes I know its a strawman but I don't really give a rat's ass.)

[lets go pavel 2]

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but have any of them ... NHL, GMs, owners, etc ... actually explained what the specific problem is with fighting that they're trying to solve? If it's the potential for injury/death, I don't see how eliminating some fighting accomplishes that at all; the only logical solution would seem to be to ban fighting entirely (not saying that's what I want, but it would be the logical fix to that particular problem). If that isn't the impetus for all this, then what is?

[lets go pavel 2]

Maybe they do it all to piss you off on purpose. I wish I could follow you around and scream and tell everyone the mistakes you make. (yes I know its a strawman but I don't really give a rat's ass.)

Bitter, are we?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Maybe they do it all to piss you off on purpose. I wish I could follow you around and scream and tell everyone the mistakes you make. (yes I know its a strawman but I don't really give a rat's ass.)

Go for it. I don't mind the attention.

I'll probably just put you on ignore eventually, once I get too tired of you.

Of course, it'd be easier if the mods would just ban you.

[RedStormRising 7]

"The 10-minute misconduct could also be applied to any other fight a referee believes was staged."

Technically, aren't the majority of fights "staged" due to the "The Code"...

I don't like having a 10-minute misconduct called solely based on the discretion of a referee trying to determine was is and isn't a legit fight.

Edited March 12, 2009 by RedStormRising

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

"The 10-minute misconduct could also be applied to any other fight a referee believes was staged."

Technically, aren't the majority of fights "staged" due to the "The Code"...

It's all just technicalities.

The league has wanted to rid itself of fighting for quite some time. Eventually they will altogether, and this is just a further step towards that.

Despite what that Pens fan said, this is not good for the majority of hockey fans. It's a way for the league to tell it's fans to f*** off. Much like the lockout.

[Doggy 130]

Despite what that Pens fan said, this is not good for the majority of hockey fans. It's a way for the league to tell it's fans to f*** off. Much like the lockout.

You might need to explain the lockout to the Pens fan. He seems pretty new.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

It's all just technicalities.

The league has wanted to rid itself of fighting for quite some time. Eventually they will altogether, and this is just a further step towards that.

Despite what that Pens fan said, this is not good for the majority of hockey fans. It's a way for the league to tell it's fans to f*** off. Much like the lockout.

Yeah, but as an avid fight fan, longtime collector of tapes, dvds and willing participant in my playing days, it's absolutely gotten to the point of absurdity regarding fights after a big hit.

It used to be, a guy rocked you on your ass, you tipped your hat to him, gave him a wink and said, "alright that's 1, now I owe you" and you went balls to the wall to try and even up the score by being physical yourself. Sure, sometimes there were fights but not like it is today in those situations.

Today it's Player A creams Player B, Player B's teammate, Player C then jumps in and instigates fight on Player A.

It's absurd. You should be able to throw a clean hit in the NHL without some 3rd/4th liner or 3rd pairing dman jumping on you to fight right afterwards.

I wouldn't mind if the refs gave a 10 minute misconduct to anybody who instigated a fight in that situation.

Think fights are exciting? I do, sure. But what's even more exciting is watching a game where both teams are throwing huge hits, everyone is finishing checks, bodies are flying and maybe, there's a fight. But when the game is played at high intensity like that and it is back and forth, there's nothing better. Now you get a big hit, followed by somebody getting jumped, pace of the game goes to hell and the true animosity level never gets amped up to its full potential.

Bottom line is guys are fighting at the drop of a hat and as somebody who considers himself a true fight fan, that's not the type of fighting I want to see.

Edited March 12, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You might need to explain the lockout to the Pens fan. He seems pretty new.

Are you saying that hockey existed before Cindy Crosby came to Pittsburgh?

Yeah, but as an avid fight fan, longtime collector of tapes, dvds and willing participant in my playing days, it's absolutely gotten to the point of absurdity regarding fights after a big hit.

It used to be, a guy rocked you on your ass, you tipped your hat to him, gave him a wink and said, "alright that's 1, now I owe you" and you went balls to the wall to try and even up the score by being physical yourself. Sure, sometimes there were fights but not like it is today in those situations.

Today it's Player A creams Player B, Player B's teammate, Player C then jumps in and instigates fight on Player A.

It's absurd. You should be able to throw a clean hit in the NHL without some 3rd/4th liner or 3rd pairing dman jumping on you to fight right afterwards.

I wouldn't mind if the refs gave a 10 minute misconduct to anybody who instigated a fight in that situation.

Think fights are exciting? I do, sure. But what's even more exciting is watching a game where both teams are throwing huge hits, everyone is finishing checks, bodies are flying and maybe, there's a fight. But when the game is played at high intensity like that and it is back and forth, there's nothing better. Now you get a big hit, followed by somebody getting jumped, pace of the game goes to hell and the true animosity level never gets amped up to its full potential.

Bottom line is guys are fighting at the drop of a hat and as somebody who considers himself a true fight fan, that's not the type of fighting I want to see.

There's way less fighting now in hockey than there used to be, so I don't know if I agree with you that it's gotten out of control. The lack of hitting is a problem, but the league has become more European, which is why it isn't as physical as it was in the 70's and 80's.

As a Wings fan, I wish fighting was getting out of control, but maybe my opinions are biased since I hardly watch any other teams play.

[Guest micah]

One thing I don't really get is, why are some GMs apparently interested in reducing the amount of fights in the league? Are they expecting more fans due to leass fighting? Has there ever been any poll that indicated that fans or players want to see less fighting in hockey? I'm not aware of one.

[Guest micah]

Are you saying that hockey existed before Cindy Crosby came to Pittsburgh?

I wouldn't have thought so - but look at this! Apparently Pittsburgh had a hockey team way back in 1984, before the instigator rule, and even then people were retaliating for clean hits!

[55fan 5,133]

One thing I don't really get is, why are some GMs apparently interested in reducing the amount of fights in the league? Are they expecting more fans due to leass fighting? Has there ever been any poll that indicated that fans or players want to see less fighting in hockey? I'm not aware of one.

Oh, man. There was a poll, but I can't remember where I saw it. The results were along the lines of most people liking fighting, but would still watch if they got rid of it, the next largest group (much smaller than the majority) would quit watching if fighting was banned, and the smallest group (something like 8%) wanted fighting banned. They had a person giving an opinion to represent each group, and the "ban fighting" chick (yeah, it was a chick. I was embarrased for my gender) was some child psych parenting professional who talked more about the abuse of children in Canada than fighting in hockey, and felt that hockey fights were leading parents to make bad parenting decisions. It was pure crap.

I have never played hockey, and have been in very few fist fights. The ones I was in, I lost because I just couldn't get mad enough at the person to hurt him.

That said, if I ran the league (don't we all dream about that) this is how it would be:

Fighters must throw down gloves and helmets.

There must be a reason to fight. That reason may be a dirty hit thrown in March of '03 that has not yet been answered for, but it is still a reason.

Clean hits are not answered for by fighting. If you can't tell if a hit was dirty, wait and watch the video. Get him next game or the game after that. It's more fair and it heightens the drama.

Defend yourself to the best of your ability. If you are a skill player and the guy who wants to go is a skill player, go for it. Otherwise, defer the fight to your enforcer. That's what they're there for. We can't have Zata or Dats getting hurt.

If you throw dirty hits, expect to be dog chow, no matter how skilled you are.

If you are a capable fighter, throw down for yourself and your teammates.

As for the rules:

If a skill guy doesn't want to fight, the instigater must take it up with the enforcer. If a player doesn't want to fight and he is forced, the forcer gets 10 min.

If the enforcer feels his teammate is at fault, he should take it up with his teammate and tell him if he doesn't stop hitting dirty, he'll flatten his butt in practice so he knows how it feels.

If two guys want to go with just cause, they go. 5 for fighting each. None of this "he started it" crap.

There are probably some things I left out, and some things where there are circumstances that would alter what I've written, but this is a general idea of the way I think it should be.

What gets my goat is that the GMs should know this stuff. You hear players talking about it. You hear fans talking about it. Many GMs have been players. Have they forgotten how nice it is to know that someone has your back? What are they thinking? Has Bettman ever been in a fight in his life (with a guy)?

I'm getting frustrated. This is worse than politics. Probably because it is, and it's messing with my hockey.

Thank you for listening to my rambling.

[Guest micah]

This is a scrap from I don't remember when - I think it was this season or last season though, you can tell by the way it's a staged fight that happens off the faceoff. Also, you can hear the disgust in Mickey Redmond's voice. This goonery has no place in hockey. The fans hate it, the announcers hate it, classy Steve Yzerman obviously hates it - this is the type of thing that the GMs must concentrate on getting rid of if the league is to survive!

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[55fan 5,133]

This is a scrap from I don't remember when - I think it was this season or last season though, you can tell by the way it's a staged fight that happens off the faceoff. Also, you can hear the disgust in Mickey Redmond's voice. This goonery has no place in hockey. The fans hate it, the announcers hate it, classy Steve Yzerman obviously hates it - this is the type of thing that the GMs must concentrate on getting rid of if the league is to survive!

Beautiful. You only forgot one thing:

[sureWhyNot 19]

I will tell you this much -- if the league did away with the instigator rule, the Red Wings and their current lineup would be in a s***load of trouble. You can bet your ass the face washing after the whistle would stop real quick.

[Guest micah]

...as it should. If you stick your hockey glove into another man's face, you seserve the best beatdown he can lay on you. The instigator rule protects cowards like Maltby, nobody else. There was never a big problem in the NHL with goons jumping skilled players without being provoked. It was a rare thing both before and since the creation of the instigator rule.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Are you saying that hockey existed before Cindy Crosby came to Pittsburgh?

There's way less fighting now in hockey than there used to be, so I don't know if I agree with you that it's gotten out of control. The lack of hitting is a problem, but the league has become more European, which is why it isn't as physical as it was in the 70's and 80's.

As a Wings fan, I wish fighting was getting out of control, but maybe my opinions are biased since I hardly watch any other teams play.

Oh, I definitely agree with you that there was more fighting back in the day, from a pure quantity standpoint.

That's not what I meant though when I said "drop of a hat". I meant that to me, it seemed like players fought more back in the day out of hatred and raw toughness. You look back to the 80's, earl part of the 90's, you see teams with 6 or 7 guys with over 100 pims and a couple of those guys might even have 200+ pims.

To me there was more meaning in all of it.

Now, your teammate takes a clean check and in the past, say if you were Doug Gilmore perhaps you'd get up off your ass and go hit somebody or fight your own battle. Now, somebody comes in and fights your battle for you before you even get a chance to.

I'm not a big fan of the super heavyweight, staged tussle. You know the kind, where each team has a heavy and they just go b/c, well just b/c. I much prefer to see those guys fight as a result of what's going on in the game.

And i'm just flat out tired of guys being forced to fight for laying a perfectly clean, rock solid hit on somebody.

Simply, I wish the fights weren't so bogus. I wish there was actually something behind those fights other than knee jerk reaction to seeing a teammate get bowled over. Remember how exciting the WIngs/Aves rivalry was? There weren't heavies going with each other just because. There was true animosity. Everybody was getting involved. Everybody was hitting. Guys were fighting because they were angry at each other and it meant something.

I personally just don't get very excited anymore when I see 2 guys fight and I think their only doing it just b/c or when a guy jumps on and forces another guy to go for doing his job in hitting somebody.

maybe i've just been desensitized or something from seeing too many fights.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I will tell you this much -- if the league did away with the instigator rule, the Red Wings and their current lineup would be in a s***load of trouble. You can bet your ass the face washing after the whistle would stop real quick.

Good. Then we'd be forced to dress a tougher lineup.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Oh, I definitely agree with you that there was more fighting back in the day, from a pure quantity standpoint.

That's not what I meant though when I said "drop of a hat". I meant that to me, it seemed like players fought more back in the day out of hatred and raw toughness. You look back to the 80's, earl part of the 90's, you see teams with 6 or 7 guys with over 100 pims and a couple of those guys might even have 200+ pims.

To me there was more meaning in all of it.

Now, your teammate takes a clean check and in the past, say if you were Doug Gilmore perhaps you'd get up off your ass and go hit somebody or fight your own battle. Now, somebody comes in and fights your battle for you before you even get a chance to.

I'm not a big fan of the super heavyweight, staged tussle. You know the kind, where each team has a heavy and they just go b/c, well just b/c. I much prefer to see those guys fight as a result of what's going on in the game.

And i'm just flat out tired of guys being forced to fight for laying a perfectly clean, rock solid hit on somebody.

Simply, I wish the fights weren't so bogus. I wish there was actually something behind those fights other than knee jerk reaction to seeing a teammate get bowled over. Remember how exciting the WIngs/Aves rivalry was? There weren't heavies going with each other just because. There was true animosity. Everybody was getting involved. Everybody was hitting. Guys were fighting because they were angry at each other and it meant something.

I personally just don't get very excited anymore when I see 2 guys fight and I think their only doing it just b/c or when a guy jumps on and forces another guy to go for doing his job in hitting somebody.

maybe i've just been desensitized or something from seeing too many fights.

There is truth to what you're saying, but you have to realize that the league is trying to get closer to eliminating fighting altogether. They'll never come out and say so publicly, but that's still what's going on.

In the end, you have to be careful what you ask for. I'd rather have it be the way it is now, rather than see fighting gone from the game completely. WHo knows, maybe in a few years you'll be begging for those staged fights that you hate so much now.

[Guest micah]

Oh, I definitely agree with you that there was more fighting back in the day, from a pure quantity standpoint.

That's not what I meant though when I said "drop of a hat". I meant that to me, it seemed like players fought more back in the day out of hatred and raw toughness. You look back to the 80's, earl part of the 90's, you see teams with 6 or 7 guys with over 100 pims and a couple of those guys might even have 200+ pims.

To me there was more meaning in all of it.

Now, your teammate takes a clean check and in the past, say if you were Doug Gilmore perhaps you'd get up off your ass and go hit somebody or fight your own battle. Now, somebody comes in and fights your battle for you before you even get a chance to.

I'm not a big fan of the super heavyweight, staged tussle. You know the kind, where each team has a heavy and they just go b/c, well just b/c. I much prefer to see those guys fight as a result of what's going on in the game.

And i'm just flat out tired of guys being forced to fight for laying a perfectly clean, rock solid hit on somebody.

Simply, I wish the fights weren't so bogus. I wish there was actually something behind those fights other than knee jerk reaction to seeing a teammate get bowled over. Remember how exciting the WIngs/Aves rivalry was? There weren't heavies going with each other just because. There was true animosity. Everybody was getting involved. Everybody was hitting. Guys were fighting because they were angry at each other and it meant something.

I personally just don't get very excited anymore when I see 2 guys fight and I think their only doing it just b/c or when a guy jumps on and forces another guy to go for doing his job in hitting somebody.

maybe i've just been desensitized or something from seeing too many fights.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said - but I think that most of what you don't like is a direct result of the clamping-down on fighting that has happened over the last 15 years or so. The instigator rule makes it mor edifficult to start a fight - quite often, we have no idea what led up to it because it wasn't an apparent reaction to anything that happened on the ice. The instigator rule has resulted in an increase in staged heaveyweight bouts and a decrease in general toughness by the remaining players on the team. Like you mention, it used to be everyteam had 4 or 5 guys who were in the doubledigits in FMs in a year. Players took care of business when they decided it was warranted - they did it themselves, and they did it immediately. There were no Maltbys in 1980 - well, there were Maltbys, but they were much quieter. If you were gonna push and shove and chirp, you had to expect that somebody would try to break your nose for it. that's the way it should be.

It seems to me that increased rules have caused the sort of staged, sometimes boring fights we see in the league today. I doubt that still more rules will reverse the trend. Drop the instigator rule and the game will get better. Make more rules or penalties and expect the game to get worse.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Great response by Georges Laraque to the proposed changes to the fighting rules:

"The GMs need to find ways to make fighting safer instead of taking fighting out of the game," Laraque said Tuesday in Montreal. "With the instigator rule, you have more cheap shots in the game than ever. Having a 10-minute misconduct won't stop that. They should look at helmets or whatever to make it safer, not more penalties."

[Wombat 26]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said - but I think that most of what you don't like is a direct result of the clamping-down on fighting that has happened over the last 15 years or so. The instigator rule makes it mor edifficult to start a fight - quite often, we have no idea what led up to it because it wasn't an apparent reaction to anything that happened on the ice. The instigator rule has resulted in an increase in staged heaveyweight bouts and a decrease in general toughness by the remaining players on the team. Like you mention, it used to be everyteam had 4 or 5 guys who were in the doubledigits in FMs in a year. Players took care of business when they decided it was warranted - they did it themselves, and they did it immediately. There were no Maltbys in 1980 - well, there were Maltbys, but they were much quieter. If you were gonna push and shove and chirp, you had to expect that somebody would try to break your nose for it. that's the way it should be.

It seems to me that increased rules have caused the sort of staged, sometimes boring fights we see in the league today. I doubt that still more rules will reverse the trend. Drop the instigator rule and the game will get better. Make more rules or penalties and expect the game to get worse.

That is a very good point, and I also agree with everything GS&T has been saying. The instigator penalty is making it so that many fights are just heavy vs. heavy in a staged way. Lifting the instigator could solve some of these issues.

I hope they do not eliminate fighting from hockey, but I don't mind one bit in eliminating staged fighting. Staged fighting is the sideshow that will always keep hockey from gaining true traction in growing the sport.