Brad McCrimmon should be fired

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I understand the defense this year has been completely different than the level of play Wings fans have come to expect the past decade+, but I truly question how much McCrimmon has to do with this. This isn't some young garbage blueline that's still learning to play at this level where McCrimmon would have his work cut out for him. This is a veteran lineup that won the Cup just last season.

I don't deny that their level of play has declined this season (because it has), but the problem here is that the Wings have had inconsistent goaltending all season. If you couple that with a defense that starts to play on edge because they don't trust their goaltender, its a recipe for disaster. Just like Helm said in the championship DVD last year, its amazing how much better the 18 guys in front of the goalie play when they trust the guy between the pipes. They Wings haven't had that luxury all season.

[ben_usmc 253]

it does make you wonder he came from ATL what exactly did he do there? Because they certainly aren't a team that you want a coaching staff from, they suck and had sucked for a long time.

[Carman 387]

Well McCrimmon has a lot to do with the overall position and defensive scheme the team has ran. I'll give you the goalies haven't been spectacular, but neither has the overall defensive zone play in front of them. If all these goals where coming from the red-line I'd be on board with the goalie bashing, but a lot of these goals have came from breakdowns/giveaways that have been present much more this season then last.

Defensemen are only as good as their system allows. I've never seen a team play so loose in front of the net, and the collapse of the forwards seem much more hesitant then they did in the past. If you feel like going on a tirade about how you feel the goaltending is the only problem at least do me a favor and watch the difference between the defensive scheme last year/ or watch how San Jose collapses and are much more forceful and insistent then the laid back conservative play of this season by the wings'.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Well McCrimmon has a lot to do with the overall position and defensive scheme the team has ran. I'll give you the goalies haven't been spectacular, but neither has the overall defensive zone play in front of them. If all these goals where coming from the red-line I'd be on board with the goalie bashing, but a lot of these goals have came from breakdowns/giveaways that have been present much more this season then last.

Defensemen are only as good as their system allows. I've never seen a team play so loose in front of the net, and the collapse of the forwards seem much more hesitant then they did in the past. If you feel like going on a tirade about how you feel the goaltending is the only problem at least do me a favor and watch the difference between the defensive scheme last year/ or watch how San Jose collapses and are much more forceful and insistent then the laid back conservative play of this season by the wings'.

Are you suggesting that McCrimmon has completely changed the scheme this veteran defensive core was utilizing. Don't you think well before Game 77 of the season this poor play would've been addressed and they would've reverted back to a scheme more similar to last seasons (or the decade+ before that). Do you truly believe Babs would allow McCrimmon and the Wings defense to fall this hard this late in the season?

Also, don't insult my intelligence. I'm well aware how differently this Wings defense is playing from last year, but I'm also not about to pin the entire blame on McCrimmon.

[Heaton 1]

1:08 [Comment From RamblinScotzman]

Is Brad McCrimmon taking any heat for the poor play of the team right now? Is he even in charge of the D or Special Teams?

1:09 AKhan: I wouldn't blame an assistant coach for the team's defensive problems. That's all on the players. This is a veteran group, it's not like they suddenly lost their way. They should be performing better regardless of who is coaching them.

No kidding. Sorry sports fans, but even a horrible defensive coach can't take a bunch of seasoned veterans and completely strip them of their ability to play defense. This is all on the players, 100%.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

1:08 [Comment From RamblinScotzman]

Is Brad McCrimmon taking any heat for the poor play of the team right now? Is he even in charge of the D or Special Teams?

1:09 AKhan: I wouldn't blame an assistant coach for the team's defensive problems. That's all on the players. This is a veteran group, it's not like they suddenly lost their way. They should be performing better regardless of who is coaching them.

No kidding. Sorry sports fans, but even a horrible defensive coach can't take a bunch of seasoned veterans and completely strip them of their ability to play defense. This is all on the players, 100%.

No, No, No Heaton! Let's keep blaming McCrimmon....that's the easy thing to do.

Spot on.

[Carman 387]

Yes. Yes I am. It's pretty evident if you watched the games from last year to this year. The Wing's are playing a much more conservative style and are letting many more shots on net then they have last season. They are making adjustments and lately the play has changed, but just switching the coverage that they have played all year is near impossible especially if McCrimmon believes in it thoroughly. It can also be a lack of effort that is causing some of the breakdowns aswell, but the blame is going to come on the coach moreso then the players.

Edit:Also sorry if I'm sounding a little testy , don't mean to. Just giving my opinion on the subject. I don't mean to say that McCrimmon is the sole reason for the defensive lapses, but I believe he is the easiest target if the worst case scenario plays out in the playoffs.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Carman

[Heaton 1]

Yes. Yes I am. It's pretty evident if you watched the games from last year to this year. The Wing's are playing a much more conservative style and are letting many more shots on net then they have last season. They are making adjustments and lately the play has changed, but just switching the coverage that they have played all year is near impossible especially if McCrimmon believes in it thoroughly. It can also be a lack of effort that is causing some of the breakdowns aswell, but the blame is going to come on the coach moreso then the players.

Because it's easier? Look, the coaching staff always gets the blame and it's deserved but nothing has changed in the coaching philosophy. This is Babcock's team, McCrimmon brings his tools but he teaches Babcock's system. The players effort hasn't been there all season. You wanna fire Babcock and find someone better because they're not responding as well? Go ahead. Yes, I realize you didn't say that.

Coaches don't get the Stanley Cup hangover, the players do.

[Carman 387]

Because it's easier? Look, the coaching staff always gets the blame and it's deserved but nothing has changed in the coaching philosophy. This is Babcock's team, McCrimmon brings his tools but he teaches Babcock's system. The players effort hasn't been there all season. You wanna fire Babcock and find someone better because they're not responding as well? Go ahead. Yes, I realize you didn't say that.

Coaches don't get the Stanley Cup hangover, the players do.

Absolutely, I completely agree that the effort hasn't been there all season. I'm just finding it hard to believe that the 'cup hangover' is the only reason for the defensive play. McCrimmon's system has never been very successful in any city he has been in, to me it just seems like he has to have a part of the blame aswell. There have been breakdowns this season that have been due to positioning of the forwards which doesn't have as much to do with the effort as much as it has to do what they are being told to do. Either way no one can stop this team if they play their best. Let's all hope they find that switch and maybe if they are playing 100% they will look like a completely different team in the defensive zone.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Is it just me, or do Wings fans here never want to blame the defense for ANYTHING?

"Defense has sucked all season? Must be the coach. All our defense would be perfect if it weren't for that damn coach. Damn him."

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yes. Yes I am. It's pretty evident if you watched the games from last year to this year. The Wing's are playing a much more conservative style and are letting many more shots on net then they have last season. They are making adjustments and lately the play has changed, but just switching the coverage that they have played all year is near impossible especially if McCrimmon believes in it thoroughly. It can also be a lack of effort that is causing some of the breakdowns aswell, but the blame is going to come on the coach moreso then the players.

Edit:Also sorry if I'm sounding a little testy , don't mean to. Just giving my opinion on the subject. I don't mean to say that McCrimmon is the sole reason for the defensive lapses, but I believe he is the easiest target if the worst case scenario plays out in the playoffs.

Of course the discrepancy from this year to last years' defensive play is evident, but IMO your reason for it isn't accurate. This difference in play from this year to last year also has a ton to do with goaltending. As I said before, when you play in front of a goalie that isn't instilling confidence in the guys in front of him the team as a whole plays more tentative and tight. That's most certainly not a free pass to excuse the defense, because regardless of their goaltending they need to play better and smarter. The defense as a whole is playing very young and inexperienced, McCrimmon couldn't be the one bringing that on. Again...if he was, don't you think Babs would've done something about it well before Game 77? The effort and focus by our boys just hasn't been there this year....and that's the number one problem.

IMHO, blaming the coaches is just an easy way out for fans who can't accept the fact that the defense as a whole has struggled all season.

[Heaton 1]

Absolutely, I completely agree that the effort hasn't been there all season. I'm just finding it hard to believe that the 'cup hangover' is the only reason for the defensive play. McCrimmon's system has never been very successful in any city he has been in, to me it just seems like he has to have a part of the blame aswell. There have been breakdowns this season that have been due to positioning of the forwards which doesn't have as much to do with the effort as much as it has to do what they are being told to do. Either way no one can stop this team if they play their best. Let's all hope they find that switch and maybe if they are playing 100% they will look like a completely different team in the defensive zone.

This isn't McCrimmons system. Assistant coaches don't implement systems they 'handle' the defense. If we're breaking it down in %, I'd imagine the head coach does 80% of the offense and defense where the assistant coaches do their individual 10%. It's why there was no fight to keep McLellan last year.

[Carman 387]

This isn't McCrimmons system. Assistant coaches don't implement systems they 'handle' the defense. If we're breaking it down in %, I'd imagine the head coach does 80% of the offense and defense where the assistant coaches do their individual 10%. It's why there was no fight to keep McLellan last year.

I don't mean to call you out on this, but defensive/assitant coaches have a heavy heavy influence on the defensive scheme. It's very much like football in that respect. There is a difference in the style the wing's have been playing and I feel that should have some blame on the team giving up ~200 more shots then they did last season.

EDIT: I'm also not saying it's 100% McCrimmon's fault certainly the players have to hold some accountability. I don't think I've said that, I just feel he is going to be the expendable one if this situation continues into the playoffs. If you don't agree with me that's fine, not the end of the world.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Carman

[Hank 0]

I know that some people hate this excuse but I really do think we need to appreciate the reality of the Stanley Cup hangover.

Winning the cup, or even making the playoffs, following a Cup win is extremely tough. Jim Rutherford put it like this "You ask your players to sweat blood and tears to climb mount Everest. And then when they get there and come back down to celebrate their accomplishment, you ask them to do it again in 2 months".

The league is so close in terms of talent and coaching that most nights it's about mental lapses that decide wins and losses.

That's exactly what's happening here. Our defense is not playing that well because they're still mentally tired from the long journey they took just a short time ago.

In all honesty, I'm amazed that we're even close to winning our conference, or President's Trophy. Our depth, leadership and coaching has made that happen.

But in the end, if the players aren't 100% in the mind and body, we're not going anywhere.

True, it doesn't help that our goaltending has been suspect. But in many of these games where we've allowed more than 3 goals, it wasn't Conklin, it was the wide-open chances the other team was given. Backes had all day to score some of his 4 goals. Last year that wouldn't have happened.

I think the best thing this team can do is give up on winning the #1 seed and start resting guys like Lidstrom, Zetts, etc. We have enough farm hands to carry the load the rest of the way.

[Heaton 1]

I don't mean to call you out on this, but defensive/assitant coaches have a heavy heavy influence on the defensive scheme. It's very much like football in that respect. There is a difference in the style the wing's have been playing and I feel that should have some blame on the team giving up ~200 more shots then they did last season.

Shots have been up across the league due to the new faceoff in the penalty killing zone.

Not to mention the old defensive coach is still on the staff. MacLean did the defense last year. Don't you think Babcock, Holland, Mr. Ilitch would say something if they thought a simple switch or consultation would've changed anything?

Hell, why wouldn't the players say something if this new coaching style wasn't conducive to their playing style? The coaching staff has done everything this year to try and right the ship.

They sent Osgood home to clear his head.

Changed lines in almost every way imaginable.

Changed defensive pairings.

Changed PK pairings.

Worked them even harder in practice.

Emphasized greatly on the PK in practice.

This is a veteran group, it's not like the entire system is different, the players just aren't preforming.

[Carman 387]

Fair enough, I'll agree that McCrimmon isn't as big of an issue as I first believed. The more I think about it if it was just him it would have been long taken care of by now.

We'll see in the off-season if I'm correct about him being here next season or not. Won't know until then.

[lets go pavel 2]

I know that some people hate this excuse but I really do think we need to appreciate the reality of the Stanley Cup hangover.

Winning the cup, or even making the playoffs, following a Cup win is extremely tough. Jim Rutherford put it like this "You ask your players to sweat blood and tears to climb mount Everest. And then when they get there and come back down to celebrate their accomplishment, you ask them to do it again in 2 months".

The league is so close in terms of talent and coaching that most nights it's about mental lapses that decide wins and losses.

That's exactly what's happening here. Our defense is not playing that well because they're still mentally tired from the long journey they took just a short time ago.

In all honesty, I'm amazed that we're even close to winning our conference, or President's Trophy. Our depth, leadership and coaching has made that happen.

But in the end, if the players aren't 100% in the mind and body, we're not going anywhere.

True, it doesn't help that our goaltending has been suspect. But in many of these games where we've allowed more than 3 goals, it wasn't Conklin, it was the wide-open chances the other team was given. Backes had all day to score some of his 4 goals. Last year that wouldn't have happened.

I think the best thing this team can do is give up on winning the #1 seed and start resting guys like Lidstrom, Zetts, etc. We have enough farm hands to carry the load the rest of the way.

I agree 100% on the lingering SC hangover. It's not like a typical hangover that clears up the next day, it can last all season.

As for the #1 seed, I think we've given up on that already. My only concern with resting players is that it would be nice to go into the playoffs with a little bit of momentum and consistent play, but in the long run I suppose the rest would probably be more beneficial.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Lazy, Lost players. Sure McCrimmons system isnt helping, but it's not his fault. Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart etc have all been turnover machines and out of place on most goals that go in the net. Lilja and Chelios and Ericsson to an extent have been solid this year, but unfortunately one never plays, one is a rookie and one wont play again this season. Our defence needs to wake up, or this team doesnt have a shot. We won with defence last year, and we can as easily lose with it.

[Hank 0]

I agree 100% on the lingering SC hangover. It's not like a typical hangover that clears up the next day, it can last all season.

As for the #1 seed, I think we've given up on that already. My only concern with resting players is that it would be nice to go into the playoffs with a little bit of momentum and consistent play, but in the long run I suppose the rest would probably be more beneficial.

I agree with that too. It'd be nice to give the team a confidence boost by entering with a nice 3 game win streak or something.

I still have faith that the Wings will pick it up in the postseason. I think a lot of these guys, whether they know it or not, aren't playing 100% because they can't get 'up' for some teams like the Preds, Blues, etc.

Once the playoffs begin, then we'll know how much gas we have left in the tank.

These guys are working their hardest physically, but I think they've hit a wall of sorts from their impressive run last year.

One guy who I can see providing a huge spark will be Homer. He's missed an aweful lot of games and I think he'll be itching to get back on the ice and go through some walls.

Hossa too. He's hungry to win a Cup. Hopefully the hunger from those two guys will become contagious.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Hank

[lets go pavel 2]

I agree with that too. It'd be nice to give the team a confidence boost by entering with a nice 3 game win streak or something.

I still have faith that the Wings will pick it up in the postseason. I think a lot of these guys, whether they know it or not, aren't playing 100% because they can't get 'up' for some teams like the Preds, Blues, etc.

Once the playoffs begin, then we'll know how much gas we have left in the tank.

These guys are working their hardest physically, but I think they've hit a wall of sorts from their impressive run last year.

One guy who I can see providing a huge spark will be Homer. He's missed an aweful lot of games and I think he'll be itching to get back on the ice and go through some walls.

Hossa too. He's hungry to win a Cup. Hopefully the hunger from those two guys will become contagious.

Reading that gave me an image of the team sitting around the lockerroom with half their pads on singing "Viva Viagra"! If they can get things going again, could be an endorsement deal waiting to happen!

Seriously though, I don't know who's going to bring the spark, but I hope someone does, and soon.

[Vladifan 680]

I understand the defense this year has been completely different than the level of play Wings fans have come to expect the past decade+, but I truly question how much McCrimmon has to do with this. This isn't some young garbage blueline that's still learning to play at this level where McCrimmon would have his work cut out for him. This is a veteran lineup that won the Cup just last season.

I don't deny that their level of play has declined this season (because it has), but the problem here is that the Wings have had inconsistent goaltending all season. If you couple that with a defense that starts to play on edge because they don't trust their goaltender, its a recipe for disaster. Just like Helm said in the championship DVD last year, its amazing how much better the 18 guys in front of the goalie play when they trust the guy between the pipes. They Wings haven't had that luxury all season.

I would add there's evidence that our goaltenders get out of position because they don't trust the inconsistent D in front of them and penalties ensue. It's a vicious cycle and it cannot be laid mainly on the goalies. In the last few games, our D especially has looked at least as bad as the goalies. Stuart, Lebda and Chelios; and for that matter, Kopecky, Filppula, Sammy, ad nauseum, have looked really, really bad on too many plays.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I would add there's evidence that our goaltenders get out of position because they don't trust the inconsistent D in front of them and penalties ensue. It's a vicious cycle and it cannot be laid mainly on the goalies. In the last few games, our D especially has looked at least as bad as the goalies. Stuart, Lebda and Chelios; and for that matter, Kopecky, Filppula, Sammy, ad nauseum, have looked really, really bad on too many plays.

I'm not squarely putting it on the goalies. As you said, its a vicious cycle.....and I mentioned that earlier in this thread. While the defense isn't playing near their ability the Wings' goaltending hasn't helped the issue one bit. The two go-ahead goals that *quickly* followed after the Wings tied it last night were downright embarrassing. While the first (to make it 3-2 STL) may not have been Conklin's fault, the second (to make it 5-4 STL) was just a joke.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Nice to see some intelligent, well-thought out reasoning in this thread. And people willing to open their minds a little.

[Vladifan 680]

I'm not squarely putting it on the goalies. As you said,its a vicious cycle.....and I mentioned that earlier in this thread. While the defense isn't playing near their ability the Wings' goaltending hasn't helped the issue one bit. The two go-ahead goals that *quickly* followed after the Wings tied it last night were downright embarrassing. While the first (to make it 3-2 STL) may not have been Conklin's fault, the second (to make it 5-4 STL) was just a joke.

Yeupp, and amen.

[Carman 387]

In Conklin's defense on that 5-4 go ahead goal that he will probably want back. Having a player one-time a shot from right in front of the net/bottom of the circle isn't the best coverage. It's a combination of two issues, let's hope it can be corrected with playoff hunger.