Downey Elbows Opposing Goalie In AHL Playoffs

[Guest micah]

It would also result in a suspension and the Wings don't need to be another man down.

He's expendable, like all 4th liners (Maltby, Draper, Meech and Kopecky included). If such a move did take Hiller off his game (and I'm not saying it would - but if it did), it would be a net plus for the Wings.

[Frozen-Man 144]

You're an idiot. Downey had 10 fights, which takes the total down to 66PIM. In the Avs game he got two misconducts and one coinncidental roughing which takes the total down to 44 PIM. He also had coincidental roughings with Fedoruk, McCormick and Bolland, taking the total down 38 PIM. No doubt a considerable amount of those 38PIM were coincidental minors from scrums etc.

Even so, using your stupid little maths of 38/56 is about 3 penatlies every 5 games. Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kopecky, Draper, Lilja and Lebda all put Detroit on the PK more times than Downey did. And I doubt 38PIM is even the true figure, it will be much lower.

You are correct in reducing, Downey's numbers because of fights and misconducts. However, I think that you are incorrect in your comparison of Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kopecky, Draper, Lilja and Lebda all put Detroit on the PK more times than Downey did. While technically you may be correct (I'm not certain that you are, Downey had 23 minors, Lids had 20 and Kopy had 19 but I don't know how many of those ended up putting the Wings short handed) the time that they are on the ice is so drastically different that they are incomparable. Downey was 6th on the team in terms of minor penalties last year (with 23) but he was dead last, 29th, in time on ice per game (4.35 minutes per game and 256:56 for the entire season). Lidstrom on the other hand was 9th on the team in minor penalties (with 20) but he was first in time on ice per game (26:43 per game and 2030:44 for the entire season - and this is against the best the other team has to offer). That means that Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 seconds that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice. I did not go through the math to figure out the rest of the rest of the guys (except Lils because he had the most minors last year but still only one minor per 36:54 on ice as opposed to Downey's one minor per 11:10 on the ice) that you mentioned but per minute on the ice no one on the Wings took more minor penalties than Downey did last year.

Edit* This post was not meant to be an anti-Downey post. I like the guy, love his heart, and energy. I'm glad that he is with the Wings organization and think that he helps the guys in GR. I don't however, have some mistaken perception that he doesn't take more penalties than other guys on the Wings.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[Frozen-Man 144]

He's expendable, like all 4th liners (Maltby, Draper, Meech and Kopecky included). If such a move did take Hiller off his game (and I'm not saying it would - but if it did), it would be a net plus for the Wings.

I disagree that it would be a net plus. It could easily result in a 5 minute major penalty (based upon the video I saw) which could cost the Wings a game, also the Ducks have far more guys willing to goon it up and take out any one of Ozzy, Dats, Lids (and we can't spare to lose another Dman, not that we can ever really spare to lose Lids ), Z, or Hoss. They will play far dirtier and have many more goons that are expendable than we do.

[therock48880 14]

Goonery doesn't win cups anymore, skill, heart and determination does. Goons get penalties, good teams (Detroit) makes goonery-ism pay the price on the scoreboard to win games.

Grit = Drake. Goon = Downey.

I don't think there's enough data to support that comment. Since the lockout, one of the three Stanley Cup Champs was a team that used "goonery." 33% That's not a great percentage of the time, but it certainly isn't low enough to prove "Goonery doesn't win cups anymore."

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I am so proud of Aaron right now.

Wish you were playing in today's game instead of that scrub who wears number 82.

Yeah....that's definitely something to be proud of. [/sarcasm]

Disgusting cheapshot. If someone did that to Ozzie the uproar on LGW (including the enfocer-slappies) would be through the roof.

[Guest micah]

I disagree that it would be a net plus. It could easily result in a 5 minute major penalty (based upon the video I saw) which could cost the Wings a game, also the Ducks have far more guys willing to goon it up and take out any one of Ozzy, Dats, Lids (and we can't spare to lose another Dman, not that we can ever really spare to lose Lids ), Z, or Hoss. They will play far dirtier and have many more goons that are expendable than we do.

Note that I said "IF it took Hiller off his game it would be a net plus.." If Hiller was off his game, the Wings would be dominating this series. I'm not worried about the Ducks gooning it up in return - I keep hearing from other posters on here about how tough the Wings are, that they can handle themselves and that they're above physical intimidation. Maybe young Hiller isn't.

I do agree with you though, that if it came down to glove-dropping, the Wings would collectively s*** themselves and turtle because they are, as a whole, very soft and dainty.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Yeah....that's definitely something to be proud of. [/sarcasm]

Disgusting cheapshot. If someone did that to Ozzie the uproar on LGW (including the enfocer-slappies) would be through the roof.

+1 :clap: That is the truth. I like Downey but from the video that looked way over the line. That goalie could have been hurt badly and it is not something to be applauded.

[Guest micah]

Yeah....that's definitely something to be proud of. [/sarcasm]

Disgusting cheapshot. If someone did that to Ozzie the uproar on LGW (including the enfocer-slappies) would be through the roof.

I'd be calling for retaliation, but that'd be it.

I'm sure Aaron had his reasons, just like McCarty had his reasons when he did the cowardly thing and jumped Claude Lemieux instead of fighting him straight-up.

If it was an unprovoked cheapshot, even better. Georges Laraque isn't that scary a guy to play against, everyone knows he's mostly classy and despite his fighting prowess, he isn't going to come after them. The wildcard is way more intimidating, the guy that'll occasionally clock you for no reason at all - that kind of guy keeps people on their toes. We all know that guy. When you're in the bar with him, you've always got an eye on him. You're on good enough terms with him, but he's shady and you don't trust him. You wonder how he hasn't been put in prison yet. You wonder when that fuse will burn down to nothing next. That guy is scary - way scarier than the toughest "gentle giant".

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You're an idiot. Downey had 10 fights, which takes the total down to 66PIM. In the Avs game he got two misconducts and one coinncidental roughing which takes the total down to 44 PIM. He also had coincidental roughings with Fedoruk, McCormick and Bolland, taking the total down 38 PIM. No doubt a considerable amount of those 38PIM were coincidental minors from scrums etc.

Even so, using your stupid little maths of 38/56 is about 3 penatlies every 5 games. Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kopecky, Draper, Lilja and Lebda all put Detroit on the PK more times than Downey did. And I doubt 38PIM is even the true figure, it will be much lower.

Before you call Mike an idiot for using stats in his favor perhaps you should take a look in the mirror.

*** Numbers calculated using Minor Penalties (2:00) only! ***

Lidstrom: 40 PIM, 76 GP = 1 Penalty/3.80 Games

Kopecky: 43 PIM, 77 GP = 1 Penalty/3.58 Games

Lebda: 48 PIM, 78 GP = 1 Penalty/3.25 Games

Draper: 65 PIM, 68 GP = 1 Penalty/2.09 Games

Holmstrom: 59 PIM, 58 GP = 1 Penalty/1.96 Games

Lilja: 93 PIM, 79 GP = 1 Penalty/1.70 Games (Skewed, just like Downey's initial total is due to fights)

On top of this, you calculated Downey's numbers incorrectly because you went based on minutes, not penalties. Here's what it should look like:

Downey: (Revised using *your* numbers): 38 PIM, 56GP = 1 Penalty/2.94 Games

Bottom line, if were going to make statements about Downey's worth lets all try and use numbers that are accurate. Hell, my numbers probably aren't 100% accurate. Obviously, I didn't look at Lilja's majors or anyone elses but even still, Lidstrom, Kopecky and Lebda all had better penalty/game ratios based on the math *you* used.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I do agree with you though, that if it came down to glove-dropping, the Wings would collectively s*** themselves and turtle because they are, as a whole, very soft and dainty.

Once again you are quite the fan, nothing but good to say about the opposition and nothing but bad for the Wings. I wasn't talking about glove dropping, Ericsson handled himself just fine, and smartly unlike many players - I'm talking about late hits, boarding, hits from behind, and other goon play that you seem to love so much. If the Wings had done this to Hiller, there would have been retribution but probably not in the form of dropping the gloves, it would have been intentional injury to one of our star players, that would have been awesome though.

Note that I said "IF it took Hiller off his game it would be a net plus.." If Hiller was off his game, the Wings would be dominating this series. I'm not worried about the Ducks gooning it up in return - I keep hearing from other posters on here about how tough the Wings are, that they can handle themselves and that they're above physical intimidation. Maybe young Hiller isn't.

That's a big if, and either way we probably lose the game due to a 5 minute major penalty, have to deal with their goons trying to injure our guys in retribution, have to deal with the controversy that comes with such a despicable and pathetic action. Yeah it's a net plus. I guess that the Bertuzzi hit on Moore was a "net plus" for Vancouver because it put the Avs a man short. Some actions are NEVER a net plus because the actions are so despicable, pathetic, and beyond the pale of decency.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I'd be calling for retaliation, but that'd be it.

I'm sure Aaron had his reasons, just like McCarty had his reasons when he did the cowardly thing and jumped Claude Lemieux instead of fighting him straight-up.

If it was an unprovoked cheapshot, even better. Georges Laraque isn't that scary a guy to play against, everyone knows he's mostly classy and despite his fighting prowess, he isn't going to come after them. The wildcard is way more intimidating, the guy that'll occasionally clock you for no reason at all - that kind of guy keeps people on their toes. We all know that guy. When you're in the bar with him, you've always got an eye on him. You're on good enough terms with him, but he's shady and you don't trust him. You wonder how he hasn't been put in prison yet. You wonder when that fuse will burn down to nothing next. That guy is scary - way scarier than the toughest "gentle giant".

Yeah, that is what we should hope for in our hockey players. Maybe we could let them all carry around knives or if that gets too boring for you guns. That would be way scarier and after all that is the point of hockey. I have even heard that they are going to start giving out the Lord Vader / Lord Voldemort Trophy to the player "who should be in prision" and is the way scariest.

[Guest micah]

Once again you are quite the fan, nothing but good to say about the opposition and nothing but bad for the Wings.

What can I say, I'm tougher on the ones I love.

That's a big if, and either way we probably lose the game due to a 5 minute major penalty, have to deal with their goons trying to injure our guys in retribution, have to deal with the controversy that comes with such a despicable and pathetic action. Yeah it's a net plus. I guess that the Bertuzzi hit on Moore was a "net plus" for Vancouver because it put the Avs a man short. Some actions are NEVER a net plus because the actions are so despicable, pathetic, and beyond the pale of decency.

FTR - I am not in any way shape or form in favor of Burtuzi-Moore type hits. Not at all. I don't think it's ever okay to hit someone from behind or use your stick or sucker someone. If it's straight-up, mano y mano, no sticks involved? Then anything goes.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Before you call Mike an idiot for using stats in his favor perhaps you should take a look in the mirror.

*** Numbers calculated using Minor Penalties (2:00) only! ***

Lidstrom: 40 PIM, 76 GP = 1 Penalty/3.80 Games

Kopecky: 43 PIM, 77 GP = 1 Penalty/3.58 Games

Lebda: 48 PIM, 78 GP = 1 Penalty/3.25 Games

Draper: 65 PIM, 68 GP = 1 Penalty/2.09 Games

Holmstrom: 59 PIM, 58 GP = 1 Penalty/1.96 Games

Lilja: 93 PIM, 79 GP = 1 Penalty/1.70 Games (Skewed, just like Downey's initial total is due to fights)

On top of this, you calculated Downey's numbers incorrectly because you went based on minutes, not penalties. Here's what it should look like:

Downey: (Revised using *your* numbers): 38 PIM, 56GP = 1 Penalty/2.94 Games

Bottom line, if were going to make statements about Downey's worth lets all try and use numbers that are accurate. Hell, my numbers probably aren't 100% accurate. Obviously, I didn't look at Lilja's majors or anyone elses but even still, Lidstrom, Kopecky and Lebda all had better penalty/game ratios based on the math *you* used.

QFT - but one step farther because Downey may have taken 1 penalty/2.94 games but he only played 4 minutes and 35 seconds per game where as Lidstrom played 26 minutes and 43 seconds per game. So one of Downey's games is not even very comparable to one of Lids. I did the math to try and figure out what the TOI per penalty was:

Downey was 6th on the team in terms of minor penalties last year (with 23) but he was dead last, 29th, in time on ice per game (4.35 minutes per game and 256:56 for the entire season). Lidstrom on the other hand was 9th on the team in minor penalties (with 20) but he was first in time on ice per game (26:43 per game and 2030:44 for the entire season - and this is against the best the other team has to offer). That means that Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 seconds that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice.

[Guest micah]

Yeah, that is what we should hope for in our hockey players. Maybe we could let them all carry around knives or if that gets too boring for you guns. That would be way scarier and after all that is the point of hockey. I have even heard that they are going to start giving out the Lord Vader / Lord Voldemort Trophy to the player "who should be in prision" and is the way scariest.

Like it or not, there are players in this league that are effective players partially because nobody trusts them and they make sure that opponents keep their heads up. There's nothing wrong with that, it's been a part of the game since day 1.

[uk_redwing 495]

Before you call Mike an idiot for using stats in his favor perhaps you should take a look in the mirror.

*** Numbers calculated using Minor Penalties (2:00) only! ***

Lidstrom: 40 PIM, 76 GP = 1 Penalty/3.80 Games

Kopecky: 43 PIM, 77 GP = 1 Penalty/3.58 Games

Lebda: 48 PIM, 78 GP = 1 Penalty/3.25 Games

Draper: 65 PIM, 68 GP = 1 Penalty/2.09 Games

Holmstrom: 59 PIM, 58 GP = 1 Penalty/1.96 Games

Lilja: 93 PIM, 79 GP = 1 Penalty/1.70 Games (Skewed, just like Downey's initial total is due to fights)

On top of this, you calculated Downey's numbers incorrectly because you went based on minutes, not penalties. Here's what it should look like:

Downey: (Revised using *your* numbers): 38 PIM, 56GP = 1 Penalty/2.94 Games

Bottom line, if were going to make statements about Downey's worth lets all try and use numbers that are accurate. Hell, my numbers probably aren't 100% accurate. Obviously, I didn't look at Lilja's majors or anyone elses but even still, Lidstrom, Kopecky and Lebda all had better penalty/game ratios based on the math *you* used.

Because Lilja's 3 fighting majors are going to make such a huge diffrence to that figure. Like I said, 38PIM is going to the absolute most which Downey attained and I have no doubt it will be far less. My numbers were more accurate and throught out than mikes "durrrr all Downeys penatlies minutes = pk....durrrr whats a fighting major?"

And as for people saying goons who do that have no place on this team...Todd Bertuzzi anyone? Hypocrites.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I'd be calling for retaliation, but that'd be it.

I'm sure Aaron had his reasons, just like McCarty had his reasons when he did the cowardly thing and jumped Claude Lemieux instead of fighting him straight-up.

Did Schneider (sp?) take a Griffin player out of the series with a cheap shot? If not, then you have no business comparing the two.

If it was an unprovoked cheapshot, even better. Georges Laraque isn't that scary a guy to play against, everyone knows he's mostly classy and despite his fighting prowess, he isn't going to come after them. The wildcard is way more intimidating, the guy that'll occasionally clock you for no reason at all - that kind of guy keeps people on their toes. We all know that guy. When you're in the bar with him, you've always got an eye on him. You're on good enough terms with him, but he's shady and you don't trust him. You wonder how he hasn't been put in prison yet. You wonder when that fuse will burn down to nothing next. That guy is scary - way scarier than the toughest "gentle giant".

So this cheapshot just shows how valuable Downey is to the team?

Intriguing.

[Frozen-Man 144]

FTR - I am not in any way shape or form in favor of Burtuzi-Moore type hits. Not at all. I don't think it's ever okay to hit someone from behind or use your stick or sucker someone. If it's straight-up, mano y mano, no sticks involved? Then anything goes.

The result of the Bertuzzi hit was worse than the Downey hit but no worse in terms of what was done. I sencereley doubt that Bert intended Moore to be hurt like he was. The Downey his was not "straight-up, mano y mano" it was cheap and pathetic. In fact you even said that if Downey's hit

was an unprovoked cheapshot, even better.

What Bertuzzi did was exactly what you advocate for all the time, the result was just bad so you act as if it is some way different than the other cheap pathetic cheap shots.

[Guest micah]

Did Schneider (sp?) take a Griffin player out of the series with a cheap shot? If not, then you have no business comparing the two.

I don't have any idea what Schneider did to the Grifs last year.

[Guest micah]

What Bertuzzi did was exactly what you advocate for all the time, the result was just bad so you act as if it is some way different than the other cheap pathetic cheap shots.

Actually, I haven't even seen the Downey hit:)

Maybe he did completely blindside the goalie, throw a punch at the back of his head and burry his face in the ice. If he did that, shame on him, he should be suspended forever.

If on the other hand, he just threw an elbow, not unlike all of the elbows that have been thrown in the NHL for the past several decades, good on him.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Because Lilja's 3 fighting majors are going to make such a huge diffrence to that figure. Like I said, 38PIM is going to the absolute most which Downey attained and I have no doubt it will be far less. My numbers were more accurate and throught out than mikes "durrrr all Downeys penatlies minutes = pk....durrrr whats a fighting major?"

And as for people saying goons who do that have no place on this team...Todd Bertuzzi anyone? Hypocrites.

I used *your* numbers in my estimations....not the total PIM Downey attained. Even with that, your claims were incorrect. That's my point.

Because Lilja's 3 fighting majors are going to make such a huge diffrence to that figure. Like I said, 38PIM is going to the absolute most which Downey attained and I have no doubt it will be far less. My numbers were more accurate and throught out than mikes "durrrr all Downeys penatlies minutes = pk....durrrr whats a fighting major?"

And as for people saying goons who do that have no place on this team...Todd Bertuzzi anyone? Hypocrites.

Just because your numbers were *more* accurate doesn't mean they deserve credibility. Bottom line, you were both wrong...and to call someone an idiot when your numbers weren't correct either is pretty hypocritical.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Because Lilja's 3 fighting majors are going to make such a huge diffrence to that figure. Like I said, 38PIM is going to the absolute most which Downey attained and I have no doubt it will be far less. My numbers were more accurate and throught out than mikes "durrrr all Downeys penatlies minutes = pk....durrrr whats a fighting major?"

Your numbers were not more correct because you cherry picked and compared the total number of penalties that Lids had to a guy that plays about 16% of the time he does.I put the Wings short handed less times last year than Lids did too but that is not really comparable either. Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice. Had Downey played as many minutes as Lidstrom he would have been on pace for more than 2.5 minor penalties a game. The guy had almost NO ice time, only played 56 games and was still 6th on the team in minor penalties. I mean total Downey only played 256 minutes last year while Lidstrom had 2,030 minutes yet you brag that Downey put his team short handed less than Lidstrom (which I'm still not sure is true Lids had 20 minors and Downey had 23). Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 that he played which was by far the absolute worst on the team - no one was even close to that pace.

Edit* fixed grammar and accuracy.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[Frozen-Man 144]

Actually, I haven't even seen the Downey hit:)

Maybe he did completely blindside the goalie, throw a punch at the back of his head and burry his face in the ice. If he did that, shame on him, he should be suspended forever.

If on the other hand, he just threw an elbow, not unlike all of the elbows that have been thrown in the NHL for the past several decades, good on him.

So you're praising a guy for actions that you know nothing about, just your blind man-lust for Downey. Maybe you should watch the play (it was posted in this thread) so you could have some clue what you are talking about before you post this stuff then:

Awesome. Nice to see a little old time hockey from one of our own.

The Wings I grew up watching did stuff like that all the time. Fun stuff!

If it was an unprovoked cheapshot, even better.

[Guest micah]

I saw the boxscore:)

I was happy.

I'm not anymore though, now that I've learned that this hit was just like Bertuzi-Moore. I'll have to watch it when I get home.

[Guest micah]

DP

Edited May 4, 2009 by micah

[OsGOD 3]

...if only that was hiller or pronger dressed up in goalie pads

seems to me to be just like the dude did to Hudler just without all the blood spilled :shrugs:

Edited May 4, 2009 by OsGOD