Ref Consistency

[Opie 308]

Is there anything that can be done?

It is getting bad now, not only is a hook, slash, interference, hold different from game to game, but after watching last nights game it is end to end now.

Any one else notice lately that more often than not in games it is the same official calling most of the penalties.

Last night, that Lurch looking fool was calling the weakest of Penalties and the other guy was letting Playoff hockey go on!

In the third period Sammy got called for the interference (which was borderline in my book, he had just passed the puck and was skating away from the play), then Dats gets picked off at the other end without touching the puck. No call, different official.

The Neidermayer take down of Homer, I have no problem with that no call, as long as Ralf's holding is a no call.

One end of the ice the whistle was faster than lightning and the other end it took forever for either goalie to get a call.

Now I am not here to make this a Refs against Red Wings thread, I am a Wings fan so these moments stuck out in my head, but I know there were others that went against the Ducks and in the Wings favor.

However IMO one end of the ice the players were playing more physical and more of a playoff brand of hockey.

Maybe I am way off base here, but the Reffing in this league is getting bad, I said from the start I don't want the refs to either swallow their whistles nor call everything, I want them to be consistent. And that is the last thing I see them being.

Note: I am not blaming the loss on Reffing, the Wings showed up to that game about 2.75 periods too late.

[Inultus 12]

I agree, but what is anyone going to do about it?

[Hank 0]

I couldn't have said it better Opie. Especially about the quick whistles when Hiller had the puck compared to Ozzie being mauled with sticks for a good 10 seconds before they'd finally blow the whistle.

Like you said, there's no concipiracy (why would the NHL want the boring-ass Ducks in the finals compared to an original 6 matchup with Chicago), but the incosistancy is mind boggling.

The non-call on Prongers interference hit was atrocious. That could have been the most blatant 'swallow the whistle' moment I've seen since the lockout and new standards were enforced.

Filpulla got away with one minutes later but you knew that was a make-up non-call. I would have prefered going back on the PP without one of their best defensemen.

Oh well. Despite the inconsitancies the Wings deserved to lose last night. We looked like we were playing in January. The good news is that the Ducks had one of their best games and still could only muster a 2-1 win.

That's because they have 7 great skaters and 11 AHL rejects. I've never seen such a drop in skill from top to bottom. I'm pretty sure we have guys in Grand Rapids that are better than the Ducks 2nd line.

[Opie 308]

Baseball put in a system where they use a "K-zone" type system and they give the Umps a 2 inch "room for error" in rating their officials.

Get enough bad ratings you are warned, enough bad ratings and see you later.

Watch the games on tape, if officials are really really bad and not adhering to the rule book rate them based on it.

Give them a % of calls made that were right, not missed calls, just calls they made that were right or wrong. Give them some wiggle room, well his hand was on his shoulders, I guess I hold is a good call. Something along those lines.

It just seems like some times the two officials reffing the same game are using two different rule books!

I don't know I just find it frustrating as a fan not knowing what is and what isn't a penalty, and I find myself more and more yelling at the refs, seriously I was pissed after Sammy's penalty and Dats gets dropped in the corner only to not have it called. Again I am sure Duck guy can come on here and list 4 calls that went the other way I get that, but now it seems like winning a game is a crap shoot as to who is going to call what.

Can Homer be in the crease, can Neids take him down, the puck loose in front of Ozzie whistle takes 3 seconds (guess at time) while a little while later the puck is literally bouncing around the crease (with Ozzie it was between his glove and his stick) only to leave the crease, but the whistle took all of a half second (guess at time).

Why, the black pants really, is that it? The Wings may lose this series because the color of ANA hockey pants, seriously weakest excuse ever, and lets remember I didn't make it up, the league did!

[maltbymaniac 13]

Is there anything that can be done?

It is getting bad now, not only is a hook, slash, interference, hold different from game to game, but after watching last nights game it is end to end now.

Any one else notice lately that more often than not in games it is the same official calling most of the penalties.

Last night, that Lurch looking fool was calling the weakest of Penalties and the other guy was letting Playoff hockey go on!

In the third period Sammy got called for the interference (which was borderline in my book, he had just passed the puck and was skating away from the play), then Dats gets picked off at the other end without touching the puck. No call, different official.

The Neidermayer take down of Homer, I have no problem with that no call, as long as Ralf's holding is a no call.

One end of the ice the whistle was faster than lightning and the other end it took forever for either goalie to get a call.

Now I am not here to make this a Refs against Red Wings thread, I am a Wings fan so these moments stuck out in my head, but I know there were others that went against the Ducks and in the Wings favor.

However IMO one end of the ice the players were playing more physical and more of a playoff brand of hockey.

Maybe I am way off base here, but the Reffing in this league is getting bad, I said from the start I don't want the refs to either swallow their whistles nor call everything, I want them to be consistent. And that is the last thing I see them being.

Note: I am not blaming the loss on Reffing, the Wings showed up to that game about 2.75 periods too late.

im on your side with this,its f-ing ridiculous anymore.i saw the same things you did. its to clear not to do anything about this.

[Hank 0]

im on your side with this,its f-ing ridiculous anymore.i saw the same things you did. its to clear not to do anything about this.

I don't know if it's getting worse or what. But it does seem like half of the refs are calling games like they would in February while the other half is calling games like they would in February of 2001.

[jvxp 0]

Is there anything that can be done?

It is getting bad now, not only is a hook, slash, interference, hold different from game to game, but after watching last nights game it is end to end now.

Any one else notice lately that more often than not in games it is the same official calling most of the penalties.

Last night, that Lurch looking fool was calling the weakest of Penalties and the other guy was letting Playoff hockey go on!

In the third period Sammy got called for the interference (which was borderline in my book, he had just passed the puck and was skating away from the play), then Dats gets picked off at the other end without touching the puck. No call, different official.

The Neidermayer take down of Homer, I have no problem with that no call, as long as Ralf's holding is a no call.

One end of the ice the whistle was faster than lightning and the other end it took forever for either goalie to get a call.

Now I am not here to make this a Refs against Red Wings thread, I am a Wings fan so these moments stuck out in my head, but I know there were others that went against the Ducks and in the Wings favor.

However IMO one end of the ice the players were playing more physical and more of a playoff brand of hockey.

Maybe I am way off base here, but the Reffing in this league is getting bad, I said from the start I don't want the refs to either swallow their whistles nor call everything, I want them to be consistent. And that is the last thing I see them being.

Note: I am not blaming the loss on Reffing, the Wings showed up to that game about 2.75 periods too late.

The refs were a complete joke last night. When the game is so badly officiated it is hard to watch. I could hardly watch the game. I thought it was WWF on skates.

[Nightfall 871]

Its awfully easy to ref from the comfort of your own home or in the stands. Its entirely different when you are down there on the ice trying to ref a game that is going at a blistering speed. That being said, I also have to agree the reffing has been minorly inconsistant. It hasn't been this huge inconsistancy that is costing a team the game or anything thats for sure.

The reffing is bad in the NHL? If there is one thing I have learned about grading the reffing, if your team loses, the refs get a F. If your team wins, the refs get a passing grade. Seems that no one is going to be happy with the reffing unless the team you root for gets 20 power plays and no penalties. The Wings fans on this board are those kinds of fans. Even then I wonder if 20 power plays would be enough for some people on this forum.

The Wings played flat for 2 periods, just like in game 3 when they lost 2-1 and decided to turn it up a notch. Its amazing how successful the Wings are when they play with urgency like they did in Game 4 and Game 5. As you said, they came out to play way too late, and if they lose Game 7 the same way, they will have no one to blame but themselves. I just hope the rest of the real Wings fans will see that as well and stop copping out and blaming the refs.

[Opie 308]

Its awfully easy to ref from the comfort of your own home or in the stands. Its entirely different when you are down there on the ice trying to ref a game that is going at a blistering speed. That being said, I also have to agree the reffing has been minorly inconsistant. It hasn't been this huge inconsistancy that is costing a team the game or anything thats for sure.

The reffing is bad in the NHL? If there is one thing I have learned about grading the reffing, if your team loses, the refs get a F. If your team wins, the refs get a passing grade. Seems that no one is going to be happy with the reffing unless the team you root for gets 20 power plays and no penalties. The Wings fans on this board are those kinds of fans. Even then I wonder if 20 power plays would be enough for some people on this forum.

The Wings played flat for 2 periods, just like in game 3 when they lost 2-1 and decided to turn it up a notch. Its amazing how successful the Wings are when they play with urgency like they did in Game 4 and Game 5. As you said, they came out to play way too late, and if they lose Game 7 the same way, they will have no one to blame but themselves. I just hope the rest of the real Wings fans will see that as well and stop copping out and blaming the refs.

I disagree had the Wings won or lost this game or even the series I would say this is a horribly officiated series, game 1 was bad, who won it?

Game 2 horrible who won that game?

Game 3 Horrible who won that game?

Game 4 Horrible, horrible who won that game?

Do I need to go on.

My theory with Refs is they can not be blamed for a loss, unless they are literally interfering with the game.

My favorite ref comment is when I say man barely even noticed the officials last night, do you know the last time I said that in a hockey game, cause I sure as hell don't!

The C's got absolutely jobbed the other night in Orlando and still managed to win, the Magic got Jobbed last night in Boston, the C's managed a win. (to prove my objectivity on the matter)

I don't want a set number of calls made, I want a hook to be a hook, I want interference called in the first second the way it is in the last second. To me that means if it is iffy in the first second or last second it is the same call. If you as a ref feel that at the 0:30 mark what you saw was a hook, then why 55 minutes later is it not a hook?

If it is a call it is a call, I don't care if it is too many man on the ice with 1 minute left, you were dumb enough to step on the ice too soon, you cost the team the game, not the officials.

Officials are supposed to call the game by the rule book, not their interpretation of the rule book, and I guess that is my biggest problem!

But I agree 100% and I stated it before the series started if the Ducks were to win the series they would have to out heart the Wings for it, as there was no way out skilling them would work.

Games 3 and 6 the Wings handed to the ducks and only played about 20 minutes combined between the games, to me that is why they are headed to game 7, but that doesn't mean I am happy with officiating.

Hell I am not even saying if the Refs came out apologize for the game three no goal and handed the Wings that game and the series that I would be happy. I just want to know what in the f*** a hook is, what is interference, what is intent to injure. Based on the officials and to a larger extent the league (suspension doling or not doling) I have no idea what is going to be called.

Great example the Flip interference no call, come on he checked the ducks player and neither of them were near the puck, it was a make up for a bad call. WHOA I have an even bigger problem with that, but that is another topic for another day!

Edit: BTW if the ref can not keep up with the game, they shouldn't be reffing it that simple, if I can not keep up with my work guess what happens.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Opie

[Nightfall 871]

I disagree had the Wings won or lost this game or even the series I would say this is a horribly officiated series, game 1 was bad, who won it?

Game 2 horrible who won that game?

Game 3 Horrible who won that game?

Game 4 Horrible, horrible who won that game?

Do I need to go on.

My theory with Refs is they can not be blamed for a loss, unless they are literally interfering with the game.

My favorite ref comment is when I say man barely even noticed the officials last night, do you know the last time I said that in a hockey game, cause I sure as hell don't!

The C's got absolutely jobbed the other night in Orlando and still managed to win, the Magic got Jobbed last night in Boston, the C's managed a win.

I don't want a set number of calls made, I want a hook to be a hook, I want interference called in the first second the way it is in the last second. To me that means if it is iffy in the first second or last second it is the same call. If you as a ref feel that at the 0:30 mark what you saw was a hook, then why 55 minutes later is it not a hook?

If it is a call it is a call, I don't care if it is too many man on the ice with 1 minute left, you were dumb enough to step on the ice too soon, you cost the team the game, not the officials.

Officials are supposed to call the game by the rule book, not their interpretation of the rule book, and I guess that is my biggest problem!

But I agree 100% and I stated it before the series started if the Ducks were to win the series they would have to out heart the Wings for it, as there was no way out skilling them would work.

Games 3 and 6 the Wings handed to the ducks and only played about 20 minutes combined between the games, to me that is why they are headed to game 7, but that doesn't mean I am happy with officiating.

Hell I am not even saying if the Refs came out apologize for the game three no goal and handed the Wings that game and the series that I would be happy. I just want to know what in the f*** a hook is, what is interference, what is intent to injure. Based on the officials and to a larger extent the league (suspension doling or not doling) I have no idea what is going to be called.

Great example the Flip interference no call, come he checked the ducks player and neither of them were near the puck, it was a make up for a bad call. WHOA I have an even bigger problem with that, but that is another topic for another day!

You are a much better hockey fan than 90% of the people on this forum then if you can look that deeply into a game and make those calls. Most people here just care about the W and there is very little analysis after that. But I digress.....

You do a good job pointing out all the non calls on the Wings players, but you have no non calls to point out on some of the Ducks players by the Wings and to my recollection, there were a couple times where I said to myself, "Gee, that could have been called" but it wasn't. Do I believe the refs could ref more consistently? Yes, a little bit better thats for sure. I am not going to go off the deep end and say there were 20 missed calls on the Ducks and 0 on the Wings though. Thats a little disingenuous.

It seems that the refs are struggling with the "call all obstruction" and "don't call anything, its playoff hockey" mentality. Which is why select calls do get missed and its no wonder why everyone here notices them when they are committed on the Wings. Take a gander at the Ducks forums and you will see they are bitching about the same damn thing, though not as much since they won the game last night.

[Hank 0]

Its awfully easy to ref from the comfort of your own home or in the stands. Its entirely different when you are down there on the ice trying to ref a game that is going at a blistering speed. That being said, I also have to agree the reffing has been minorly inconsistant. It hasn't been this huge inconsistancy that is costing a team the game or anything thats for sure.

The reffing is bad in the NHL? If there is one thing I have learned about grading the reffing, if your team loses, the refs get a F. If your team wins, the refs get a passing grade. Seems that no one is going to be happy with the reffing unless the team you root for gets 20 power plays and no penalties. The Wings fans on this board are those kinds of fans. Even then I wonder if 20 power plays would be enough for some people on this forum.

The Wings played flat for 2 periods, just like in game 3 when they lost 2-1 and decided to turn it up a notch. Its amazing how successful the Wings are when they play with urgency like they did in Game 4 and Game 5. As you said, they came out to play way too late, and if they lose Game 7 the same way, they will have no one to blame but themselves. I just hope the rest of the real Wings fans will see that as well and stop copping out and blaming the refs.

I completely agree with you Nightfall. But I think if you read most of the posts in this thread you'll see that nobody is blaming the refs for the loss. I'm just frustrated that a chincy borderline hold is whistled down, but then I watch Pronger destroy Datsyuk in the corner with the puck nowhere in site and it's not called. Everyone in that arena knows that penalty is made if this game is in November or March.

Even Ray Ferraro commenting between the benches was stunned with how it wasn't whistled down.

Consistancy is tough to maintain in such a fast sport. But last night it was random as to what would be called one second from the next.

I haven't felt that the officiating has been that bad this series, but last nights game was really pathetic. In one moment you can't look at a guy without going to the box and in the next you can decapitate someone and the refs look the other way. It's especially harder to swallow when the above scenarios are reveresed. You see some guy get railroaded and then 10 seconds later someone's whistled for breathing on the opposition.

[Nightfall 871]

I completely agree with you Nightfall. But I think if you read most of the posts in this thread you'll see that nobody is blaming the refs for the loss. I'm just frustrated that a chincy borderline hold is whistled down, but then I watch Pronger destroy Datsyuk in the corner with the puck nowhere in site and it's not called. Everyone in that arena knows that penalty is made if this game is in November or March.

Even Ray Ferraro commenting between the benches was stunned with how it wasn't whistled down.

Consistancy is tough to maintain in such a fast sport. But last night it was random as to what would be called one second from the next.

I haven't felt that the officiating has been that bad this series, but last nights game was really pathetic. In one moment you can't look at a guy without going to the box and in the next you can decapitate someone and the refs look the other way. It's especially harder to swallow when the above scenarios are reveresed. You see some guy get railroaded and then 10 seconds later someone's whistled for breathing on the opposition.

I also agree with you as well. These calls have to be consistant across the board. I know that Wings fans remember all the infractions that happen to them, but remember none that their team commit. That being said, I can handle a very tightly called game thats for sure. Just keep in mind that if its called both ways, there is still going to be controversy. More Wings players are going to be called for penalties just as there will be more Ducks called. Its controversy that I can live with though. Lets hope the NHL gives us good refs on Thursday night.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Nightfall

[Opie 308]

You are a much better hockey fan than 90% of the people on this forum then if you can look that deeply into a game and make those calls. Most people here just care about the W and there is very little analysis after that. But I digress.....

You do a good job pointing out all the non calls on the Wings players, but you have no non calls to point out on some of the Ducks players by the Wings and to my recollection, there were a couple times where I said to myself, "Gee, that could have been called" but it wasn't. Do I believe the refs could ref more consistently? Yes, a little bit better thats for sure. I am not going to go off the deep end and say there were 20 missed calls on the Ducks and 0 on the Wings though. Thats a little disingenuous.

It seems that the refs are struggling with the "call all obstruction" and "don't call anything, its playoff hockey" mentality. Which is why select calls do get missed and its no wonder why everyone here notices them when they are committed on the Wings. Take a gander at the Ducks forums and you will see they are bitching about the same damn thing, though not as much since they won the game last night.

I see your point and that is why I brought up the fact that the ones that stick out in my mind are wings related, because I am a wings fan. But I also pointed out the Flip checking the Ducks D and that I was almost 100% positive that Duck guy would have 4 or 5 as well.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Opie

[egroen 384]

A lot of things were stacked against the Wings last night - but they should have given it a hell of a lot better effort.

The ice was terrible - you wanna f*ck with a puck-possession team? Turn the heat up. The refs were even out there squeegying water on the ice.

The whistles for the crease were laughable -- Osgood gets a full 3-4 seconds before a whistle every time he covers the puck. Hiller gets a whistle within a second, when he does not have the puck and the rebound is bouncing out to center ice.

I am still scratching my head over Neidermayer sitting on Holmstrom and slamming him into the ice, while both refs are 5 feet away and staring right at them. If the Wings were not already on a power play, that would have been called 10 times out of 10.

Blatant interference completely ignored and textbook instigating within 5 minutes of the end of the game - totally thrown out the window.

I dunno -- this game gives conspiracy theorists a lot of fuel, but in reality it is just watching the Ducks in their element -- they push the line constantly and essentially dare the refs to call them on something. If your star players are dirty, the refs will not dare call anything on them, as they do not want the game decided on a penalty.

[Bad Vlad Forever 1]

There's nothing that can be done about it. It's a product of post-lockout NHL. Back when hockey was tough, you had to make a lot more blatant move to get a penalty for slashing, tripping, interference....but since basically hockey is played in the manner where that stuff happens every single time down the ice, it now becomes a referree preference and judgement call. Since no 2 refs are alike, the challenge obviously becomes consistency, and I just don't think you can have it in a post-lockout world. That said, I feel a few points are in order here.

1. I don't think that the calls/non-calls in this series will affect the outcome

2. I never want to hear another duck fan whine about officiating and how detroit cheats and are the leagues darlings....ever again

3. The crowd in Anaheim booed the refs ferociously last night as they skated on the ice. Appalling and embarassing

[Mikeal 60]

I couldn't have said it better Opie. Especially about the quick whistles when Hiller had the puck compared to Ozzie being mauled with sticks for a good 10 seconds before they'd finally blow the whistle.

Perhaps this one actually has a reason. You would believe after the goal called off because of vision / ref location they might have been instructed to make sure the puck is actually frozen a little better. Perhaps there just a little tentative with the whistle. I mean the entire hockey world pretty much bashed the refs over that one...