Vaclav Prospal Bought Out

[mmamolo 287]

Egroen, although I agree with a lot of what you said I have to disagree with a couple of things. First, I really don't think that Lilja is better defensively than Ericsson. I'll give credit where it's due, Lilja is a good shot blocker, works hard on the PK but his turnovers are terrible and although Ericsson isn't the fastest guy in the word I think he has a step or two on Lilja. Secondly, I really disagree with you saying Helm is lost in his own end. This guy is all over the place, he creates turnovers and moves the puck out quickly. I really think he fits the mold of a Red Wing centre perfectly.

[egroen 384]

Egroen, although I agree with a lot of what you said I have to disagree with a couple of things. First, I really don't think that Lilja is better defensively than Ericsson. I'll give credit where it's due, Lilja is a good shot blocker, works hard on the PK but his turnovers are terrible and although Ericsson isn't the fastest guy in the word I think he has a step or two on Lilja. Secondly, I really disagree with you saying Helm is lost in his own end. This guy is all over the place, he creates turnovers and moves the puck out quickly. I really think he fits the mold of a Red Wing centre perfectly.

Ericsson has a lot of promise, but he is not yet as strong as Lilja defensively and far away from him on the PK.

Ericsson had 17 giveaways in 2009 playoffs, while Lilja had only 2 in the 2008 playoffs.

He turns the puck over a lot more than Lilja - it's just he has been fortunate enough to have nothing terrible happen on his gaffs, like Lilja has, and have it be pointed out to us by multiple replays.

Helm really is not a defensive forward (he is an energy guy) - and Babcock did not use him as one.

We all remember the sweet PK he killed all by himself, but Babcock only had him on the PK for 24 seconds a game in the playoffs, despite a full 12 minutes a game. He was Detroit's 8th PK option at forward.

Helm will be a great player to have out there, for multiple reasons - but those reasons do not include scoring and defensive play. At least not yet.

Edited July 29, 2009 by egroen

[mmamolo 287]

Ericsson has a lot of promise, but he is not yet as strong as Lilja defensively and far away from him on the PK.

Ericsson had 17 giveaways in 2009 playoffs, while Lilja had only 2 in the 2008 playoffs.

He turns the puck over a lot more than Lilja - it's just he has been fortunate enough to have nothing terrible happen on his gaffs, like Lilja has, and have it be pointed out to us by multiple replays.

Helm really is not a defensive forward (he is an energy guy) - and Babcock did not use him as one.

We all remember the sweet PK he killed all by himself, but Babcock only had him on the PK for 24 seconds a game in the playoffs, despite a full 12 minutes a game. He was Detroit's 8th PK option at forward.

Helm will be a great player to have out there, for multiple reasons - but those reasons do not include scoring and defensive play. At least not yet.

It's true that Ericsson turns the puck over at times but he also seems to recover the puck better than Lilja. I didn't look up the numbers on take aways but it seems to me that when Ericsson turns the puck over he doesnt get beat afterwards. But your argument is fair enough.

Helm being the Wings 8th option on the PK is kind of beside the point when talking about him being lost in the defensive end. If you want to talk about his defensive prowess let's talk face-offs, man on man coverage etc. He is strong on the draw, and even when losing he battles hard, and his speed keeps him in line with his man. You're definitely right that he doesn't score often, although give him credit he seems to get some timely goals like game 7 against anaheim, nor put up tons of points but again that has nothign to do with you saying he seems lost in his own end.

I guess we just see it a little differently. I see turnovers as a quality issue while you see it as a quantity issue. To me I would rather five bad turnovers that dont result in a goal compared to one horrible one that results in a deflating goal. Dont get me wrong though, I by no means am saying that Lilja is bad, Im actually a big fan of his.

[Z and D for the C 712]

^ The thing is any of the 5 turnovers could result in a goal.

[mmamolo 287]

^ The thing is any of the 5 turnovers could result in a goal.

Obviously they COULD. But I could just as easily say any of those turnovers could have worked as outlet passed and we coudl have scored. That's pointless. What I said was I would rather five small turnovers that DONT result in goals than one horrible one that does. Im referring to the quality of turnovers. There is a difference between someone turning the puck over in the corner while maintaining position on the player, then boxing him out and snuffing the play and Lilja's turnover to Selanne in the 07 playoffs. Quality of turnovers is what I was referring to.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Well you can't tell the quality of the turnovers before they're made. If I gave you the choice between a player that is going to give the puck away 10 times versus a player is going to give the puck away 5 times, you'd pick the latter. I'm not relating this to any red wings player, just saying.

Does anyone know if Prospal has already been bought out yet?

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Hes probably going to the kings

Edited July 29, 2009 by tommingthepuck96

[mmamolo 287]

Well you can't tell the quality of the turnovers before they're made. If I gave you the choice between a player that is going to give the puck away 10 times versus a player is going to give the puck away 5 times, you'd pick the latter. I'm not relating this to any red wings player, just saying.

Does anyone know if Prospal has already been bought out yet?

Prospal has been bought out.

You're right if you came to me and said which woudl you rather have, a guy who turns the puck over 5 times or a guy who turns it over 10 times, of course I'd pick 5. You don't know the quality of turnovers before they happen. But what we do know are the types or turnovers certain players are prone to making. You can judge a guy based on his habits and history. We know that a guy like Lidstrom, in the past, rarely turned the puck over and when he did they were low risk situations. Therefor we can predict that if and when he does turn the puck over in the future they will most likely be of the same quality.

[Snazzy 0]

Wow

Ericsson will help improve the defense, but he is a far cry from Lilja defensively - downgrade there.

Helm is an energy guy, looks lost in his own end, but could get better - not better defensively than Hossa or even Kopecky - downgrade there.

And Leino is pretty much Hudler defensively.

Where's the "significant improvement"?

So our offense has taken a nose dive, and our defense has been downgraded as well.

Really, you give Leino the same as Hudler? Okay, you are entitled to your own opinion. Just don't let facts get in your way... You also forgot to mention gaff-man-Sammy. Lilja will be back and Lebda will be gone. Ericsson > Lebda. I don't count Hossa because he was never going to stay anyhow. We all knew that... and we were a much better defensive team without him (see 2007/08). Kopecky made me nervous, I'll take Helm over Kops any day of the week!

If you do not think a forward like Prospal is worth more than $700k you are a blithering buffoon.

you said he'll come to the Wings for "potentially half of Hudler's salary". I disagreed with you, but if we could get him for your projected contract, sure, I'll take him. But for anything over $2 million, no thank you! He may be worth it, but Wings can do better at trade deadline (if needed) -- for now Holland will wait til camp and go from there. I don't expect any big signings by Holland until September -- He'll probably sign some GR plugs, but this Red Wings team that you see right now is pretty much the team that you will see for the start of the season.

So all 16 playoff teams are created equal? Do you really believe Prospal would demand the same money from Detroit or Pittsburgh that he would from the Blue Jackets? Do you pay attention at all to free agent signings each year?

Not sure how long you been watching hockey, but historically, teams that 'SHOULD' win don't always win... and the teams that 'SHOULD' lose don't always lose. Anything can happen after the playoffs begin, anything! -- Prospal could get paid $2.5 - $3 million from a playoff contender, or he could take a HUGE pay cut and come to Detroit for our remaining $1.8 cap space, what would you chose? Not every player in the world wants to take a 50% pay cut to play in Detroit... sucks, don't it?

We need a player that can make a difference -- and a player that is capable of putting up 80 points can make a big difference. The unique situation surrounding this player (bought out) may very well make him affordable, and plus you can still have your all-important 3rd line plugger.

Wings can't afford him. Holland probably had a unique plan to keep Hudler here, like maybe he had a trade set-up that now went stale because of all the Hudler drama, or maybe he structured his contract so we didn't need to move anyone but Lebda...

Detroit won in 08 largely because of incredible offensive depth coming from all the lines. They only got as far as they did last year because of incredible depth stepping in with all the injuries. As it is right now, Detroit is a 2 line team.

Detroit won in 08 because they dominated on defense. They were absolutely flawless defensively, thing of precision, a machine, an absolute beast! That's why we won

Hudler and Samuelsson combined for 49 points the last 2 post-seasons... and you describe them as junk 3rd line players whom AHLers can just walk in and replace. Get a clue. Darren Helm had all of 5 pts in the playoffs last year with pretty good minutes (4 the year before). Leino had 2 pts in 7 games.

You'll also have to explain to me how Detroit will just magically be better defensively with their roster changes from last year.

Nothing magic about it. They proved they can do it just a year and a half ago, they'll just have to do it again -- with better and younger defensive players now. I'm ready for the season to begin!

LOL! Are you kidding me??? Lebda!?

You're suggesting Holland dangle LEBDA at the trade deadline? That is too funny!

You do realize Lebda in that case is a RENTAL, being signed only until the end of the season.

Yeah, a 3rd pairing defenseman rental is really going to bring in a difference making roster player at the trade deadline!

Lebda is damn good player for his salary ratio. He's fast, chips in on goals and does well defensively for a 6th d-man. He'll be an asset when other teams need to shed salary. Yes Lebda!

The only way Lebda has value is if he is traded at the beginning of the season, so a team can enjoy his services all year at a low cap hit.

That's the only reason? And you tell me to get a clue? Lol. You are entertaining!

Ah yes, you're one of those posters who enjoys portraying their ignorance onto Holland.

Weren't you adamant "Hudler is NOT worth $3m" and that luckily Holland was not as crazy as "SOME posters" as well? Turns out Holland was in line with my posted thoughts and felt Hudler was indeed worth $3m. He is not an idiot.

I agree, Holland is not an idiot, which is why he is waiting until camp to make a move. Brilliant! Patience is an asset.

Defensive forwards can be had in the NHL for a dime a dozen and at league minimum. What gets the dollars in the NHL are guys that can ultimately put up points. I'm sorry, but Holland recognizes this, or he never would have offered Hudler good money to stay on the team. If you do not think Holland is interested in Prospal - a true scorer and playmaker, with size and whom outhit all of Detroit's players last year (meaning Babcock would actually play him) - you are really selling Holland short. Do you think he is a fool? You'd prefer him to sit on his thumbs and hope an old, slow, injury-ridden Grier can play on the 3rd line and put up 20 points?

So when Holland doesn't sign Prospal, then you will agree that Holland made the right choice? I hope so. Holland is a patient man and isn't going to panic like LGW posters -- Holland is doing a fine job this off season, he's holding out for the right guy that will play for cheap. That's brilliant. But Prospal will be already ****** up before Holland is ready to ink anyone.

Being concerned is not "panicking". Both Holland and Jimmy Devellano have expressed the exact same concern in interviews. "Fine" is not acceptable for the Detroit Red Wings.

I remember listening to an interview of Holland saying he's not concern because the Red Wings will need to tighten up on defense now that some goal scorers are gone. He said they had that cusion, unlike 2007/08, and will play solid defense like before. This was radio interview -- he sounded confident to me. [/b]

[egroen 384]

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to reply to your replies in quotes?

Could you stop that, please.

you said he'll come to the Wings for "potentially half of Hudler's salary". I disagreed with you, but if we could get him for your projected contract, sure, I'll take him. But for anything over $2 million, no thank you! He may be worth it, but Wings can do better at trade deadline (if needed) -- for now Holland will wait til camp and go from there. I don't expect any big signings by Holland until September -- He'll probably sign some GR plugs, but this Red Wings team that you see right now is pretty much the team that you will see for the start of the season.

Wings can afford $2.5m on Prospal right now, losing nothing.

Tell me, who will be available at the trade deadline that is only a season away from 30+ goals and 70+ points? And just how much do you think the Wings would have to trade away for that?

Not sure how long you been watching hockey, but historically, teams that 'SHOULD' win don't always win... and the teams that 'SHOULD' lose don't always lose. Anything can happen after the playoffs begin, anything! -- Prospal could get paid $2.5 - $3 million from a playoff contender, or he could take a HUGE pay cut and come to Detroit for our remaining $1.8 cap space, what would you chose? Not every player in the world wants to take a 50% pay cut to play in Detroit... sucks, don't it?

So you basically agree with everything I said, but still think I am ignorant for saying it?

Yes - Prospal MIGHT take less money from a true top contender (in the Finals the past 2 straight seasons). The fact he has never won a Cup and the fact he is guaranteed over $6.6 million from Tampa Bay certainly makes that a hell of a lot more likely.

Are you seriously suggesting Holland would not be interested in this unique situation? Or that he would be stupid for sending out feelers... as you are definitely implying I am?

Wings can't afford him. Holland probably had a unique plan to keep Hudler here, like maybe he had a trade set-up that now went stale because of all the Hudler drama, or maybe he structured his contract so we didn't need to move anyone but Lebda...

Point being - Holland is not a moron who thinks a 55+ point player is worth jack-s*** unless he is amazingly defensively. Unlike you.

You can have all the defense in the world, but it does you no good if you are not scoring goals. Do you forget 2003, 2004, 2006 playoffs? Great defense - couldn't score.

Nothing magic about it. They proved they can do it just a year and a half ago, they'll just have to do it again -- with better and younger defensive players now. I'm ready for the season to begin!

I will join you in "hoping" this team can play better defense than last year, with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Draper and Maltby all a year older and some veteran players replaced by rookies.

Now if Holland had signed someone like McKee for $800k - that would be a significant defensive improvement.

But I am not going to kid myself and think this roster somehow got any better defensively... and definitely not the "significant improvement" you claim.

Lebda is damn good player for his salary ratio. He's fast, chips in on goals and does well defensively for a 6th d-man. He'll be an asset when other teams need to shed salary. Yes Lebda!

I don't understand... you think a non-playoff team would be interested in trading away assets at the trade deadline for Lebda, whose contract is up at the end of the season? Not even Don Waddel is that stupid. Were you hoping Lebda would bag us Kovalchuk? Oh wait... Kovalchuk is not good defensively so you wouldn't want him.

Why would any team looking to "shed salary" trade for a roster player with an expiring contract at the trade deadline? To help them finish above a lottery pick?

That's the only reason? And you tell me to get a clue? Lol. You are entertaining!

I think it is pretty clear at this point you have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree, Holland is not an idiot, which is why he is waiting until camp to make a move. Brilliant! Patience is an asset.

The same Holland that bitched the NHL was tying his hands by forcing him to wait on the Hudler proceeding before he could sign any free agents? Are you just conveniently forgetting the situation Holland is in?

Your panic button is cute, bravo. Strawman arguments are very witty and original.

So when Holland doesn't sign Prospal, then you will agree that Holland made the right choice? I hope so. Holland is a patient man and isn't going to panic like LGW posters -- Holland is doing a fine job this off season, he's holding out for the right guy that will play for cheap. That's brilliant. But Prospal will be already ****** up before Holland is ready to ink anyone.

The Red Wings lost a full 1/3 of their offense from the previous season. That is a fact.

Now you want to act as if anyone acknowledging that fact is panicking? Because both Holland and Devellano have acknowledged that fact as well.

If, as you claim he is doing, Holland sits on his hands and watches Prospal sign with Pittsburgh for $1m without making an offer -- well, that would be pretty stupid wouldn't it?

I remember listening to an interview of Holland saying he's not concern because the Red Wings will need to tighten up on defense now that some goal scorers are gone. He said they had that cusion, unlike 2007/08, and will play solid defense like before. This was radio interview -- he sounded confident to me.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...players_in.html

"Detroit Red Wings general manager Ken Holland has made inquiries and received calls from agents of players seeking a contract as the team continues its search for an offensive-minded forward."

"Holland said he possibly can spend between $2 million and $3 million but would prefer not to use it all on one player. The Red Wings would have roughly $2.5 million in salary cap space if they send forward Justin Abdelkader ($850,000 cap hit) to Grand Rapids (AHL) at the start of the season. They can free up additional cap space by trading a defenseman before the start of the season, which Holland said he is inclined to do."

"He said acquiring somebody with goal-scoring ability is his top priority after losing Marian Hossa, Mikael Samuelsson and Jiri Hudler this month."

Hmmm... sounds like Holland is not content to sit on his ass until the trade deadline. Sounds like he is "concerned" at all the offense lost.

Edited July 29, 2009 by egroen

[mmamolo 287]

With the loss of Hudler I think it would be pretty unrealistic for anyone to believe Holland wouldnt make a move before camp. As it stands the Wings only have 11 forwards and that includes Abdelkader. Holland has publicly said that he'd prefer Abdelkader start the year in GR and play 20 mins/game. It's not like the Wings are going to promote two more rookies like McGrath and Oulahan from GR like some have suggested. There is no way they were planning on having, Helm, Leino, McGrath, Oulahan, Ericsson and Howard as rookies on this team this season.

I think had Hudler returned that is when Holland would have refrained from looking elsewhere for a player. I also think Holland is doing is due diligence and contacting any FA that may fit the mold he may be looking for. He has to see what their interest is, what their asking price is, and what type of player they are before he makes the final decision of what direction they want to go in.