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zetterbergfan

Lidstrom VS Broduer

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
As I have already shown with Hasek - no he does not belong in that discussion.

Why are you even in this thread spraying feces all over the place? Either prepare an argument that Brodeur is comparable to the likes of Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Hall or get the f*** out. Put me on ignore if you can't stand my posts to such a degree that you can not resist reading and commenting on them. Please.

How exactly could I do that in your eyes? Statistics won't work apparently. You pick and choose whichever ones you want. And if somebody points out Broduer won a Vezina, you'll merely take credit away by stating the age of his peers or that he didn't have the best save percentage.

He's going to go down as one of the greatest goalies ever. Not simply a good one. When the 'experts' rank them, he'll be right at the top. I wouldn't be surprised to see him at #1. Does that mean I think he's #1? I sure haven't said so. I just said he deserves to be in the conversation. It's an opinion and a reasonable one that will be proven out over time. You'll have to find a way to reconcile that on your own. Not my problem.

Agreed... I noticed it started right at post # 23 in this thread.

Either add to the discussion in a respectful manner or get the hell out of it.

So Ron Francis is a better player than Mario Lemieux? More points.

Osgood is better than Hasek? More wins.

Once again you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Czechoslovakia was behind only the Soviet Union in the 80s..

So then debate it, or get out.

Just don't barge in here screaming and yelling how anyone who thinks Lidstrom might be better than Broduer is a "******* homer/retard/idiot/whatever". Is it even possible for you to have respectable debate without throwing in every logical fallacy known to man?

I just think it's difficult to compare players of different positions as being greater when you have two who are so accomplished (you know, not like Yzerman vs Kolzig). I just think you personally are a ******* retard because you're convinced your opinion can be more or less factual in this debate than mine. I have plenty of reasonable discussions here. But it takes a reasonable person on the other end to make it work. When faced with somebody I think isn't so bright is when things go south. Namely, lately you and (reds4life always) are making it difficult for me to stay civil. You're stupidity insults me and makes me extremely uncomfortable.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
Brodeur sucks.

That appears to be no better or worse an opinion than "he's great".

But by sucking, I think you have clearly demonstrated what Egroen has been trying to pound into my thick skull. That Nick Lidstrom is way better than Brodeur.

But keep in mind that Lidstrom also sucks compared to Orr and a number of other defenders.

In the end, there is a lot of sucking going on. Everyone sucks compared to the next guy. Like Egroen sucks compared to my omnipotence.

ps: I happen to think Lids is better than Brodeur...........but don't tell Egroen, it'll mind-f*** him. But I still realize that its just an opinion. And unlike our thin skinned friends here.....I am not planning to fire bomb the creator of the poll nor the knuckle-dragging ghouls who keep voting for Brodeur.

Edited by GordieSid&Ted

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
Why are you even in this thread spraying feces all over the place? Either prepare an argument that Brodeur is comparable to the likes of Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Hall or get the f*** out.

I am loving your passion and that you've cut loose and started cursing Egroen. It shows you're losing that mangina. :thumbup:

ps: Gotta run but I will never put you on ignore. You're too good a poster for that. I'm just chalking up this week to you being abducted by mangina eating, brain cell robbing aliens and that they've done harmful, yet not irreparable damage to you. :)

Edited by GordieSid&Ted

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You're reaching big time. We're not talking about HOFers. We're talking about potentially the greatest ever at their positions.

Take a look at your list of defenders. Are any of them in the debate as greatest defender ever? Probably only Bourque is in that catergory. You're running off names like Niedermayer, Leetch, MacInnis, etc......NOT A SINGLE ONE WOULD BE CONSIDERED IN THE DISCUSSION AS GREATEST DMAN EVER. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

However, you keep bringing up Hasek, one of Brodeur's peers. Quite frankly he is on alot of folks top goalie of all time lists.

I'm sorry. I guess I was operating under the assumption that a Hall of Fame player is pretty damn good... and that was who was typically beating Lidstrom.

Brodeur was not beaten merely by Hasek, Roy and Belfour but by Theodore, Kiprusoff, Osgood, Carey, Joseph, Moog, Vanbiesbrook, Puppa, Hebert, Richter, Dafoe, Kolzig, Turek, Chechmanek, Burke and Nabakov.

How many of them are Hall of Fame players?

So essentially this entire paragraph is merely a statistic that Brodeur didn't have the best save percentage that year. Well s***, that's as conclusive as anything I have ever seen in my life detective. I never realized the Vezina was awarded merely by save percentage or that it should have been awarded by save percentage.

This is exactly the type of spin job you seem to rely on these days. Like your little blurb about his save percentage that year is the be all end all of who should've won the Vezina.

The point is that Brodeur was not winning Vezinas until Hasek was retired, Roy was in his final year and Belfour was 37.

It's true that a 27 year-old Brodeur played more games and had more wins on the Devils that year, so I'm not going to argue he did not deserve his Vezina but in the games they did play - Belfour and Roy were still posting better save percentages than Brodeur.

You're basically proving my point about Brodeur having stiffer competition by mentioning Hasek and Roy. Who exactly were the Hasek and Roy that Lidstrom had to face for most of his career?

Two players, plus Hall of Famer Belfour -- and then the competition for Brodeur was a bunch of goalies who will never even sniff the Hall of Fame. And Brodeur was not even capable of beating them on a year-to-year basis while Lidstrom was consistently beating Hall of Fame players.

If Brodeur was beating everyone but Hasek and Roy, you might have a point - but he was losing to a LOT of other goalies, as listed above.

We'll see, upon their retirements if they are regarded as merely "good" or "great" players or something even more. I will admit I'm somewhat confused by the fact that you'll slam Lidstrom and give him zero credit for even being in the top 5 all time (WOW!) yet you praise the s*** out of him in regards to Brodeur? I don't really follow what you're trying to do. Talking out of both sides of your mouth or something? Which must be hard when your head is still stuck up your ass.

When did I ever say Lidstrom does not belong in the Top 5? Do you just make this up as you go?

I did say he is not in the discussion for greatest defenseman ever, just like Brodeur is not in the discussion for top 5 ever.

Yes, because comparing a 6 time Norris winner and 3 time Vezina winner is akin to comparing Yzerman one of the greatest talents ever to play and an above average goalie in Kolzig. This is a ridiculously extreme example only put forth by you because you lack the wit to come up with something better. You can keep trying though. But you'll have to try much much harder.

I'd say it is just as easy to demonstrate that a 6-time Norris winner and Conn Smythe winner is better than a 3-time Vezina winner as it is to demonstrate a Selke and Conn Smythe winner is better than a Vezina winner. this is not rocket science.

Yes, because I haven't stated a single opinion, stat or fact. The notion that your opinions are any better (or worse) because you've dug up some senseless stats (like Brodeur's save percentage during 1 season vs Roy and Belfour)

I'm glad you enjoy ranking players. I like to rank them too. I do it every year when I play fantasy hockey.

What I find difficult to do is compare 2 of the greatest at their respective positions and claim one is better than the other. I find many faults with the notion that it can be done.

I don't think it's due to any lack of intelligence. Moreso, it's probably due to the notion that I am a tad bit more grounded in reality than some.

But please continue. I have never asked you to stop doing what you're doing. I just think you're a moron. How's that for an opinion?

As for Bobby Orr, I just haven't heard very much about him being called one of the greatest shut down defenders of all time. Lots of stuff about his offensive game. Not so much about his defensive game. I'll keep looking though. What I have read pretty much boasts only of his offensive and skating ability with very rarely anything said about his true ability to be an elite defender.

I am a moron for stating Lidstrom is better than Brodeur and backing it up with stats and facts?

I am a moron for stating Brodeur is not a top 5 goalie all-time, and backing it up with stats and facts.

But you're a genius for being unable to compare players of a different position and then trying to equate Lidstrom to Orr and Brodeur to Hasek, Plante, Roy, Tretiak, Sawchuk and Hall without backing it up with anything beyond your own opinion and insults?

Sure. You're coming off real well here.

Edited by egroen

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OK honestly people. If you don't think Brodeur is a top 5 goalie of all time lay off the crack pipe a bit. People are putting Cujo and Eddy the Eagle above him, thats just plain retarded.

no, it isn't. if you really and i mean really do your homework you'll see it's warranted.

i would gladly take both of them over marty.

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Further proof of your idiocy.

Did I claim he was better than Lidstrom? No, I specifically stated comparing them is dumb. I guess you have a problem with this basic concept.

As for Marty, yup, I think his accomplishments do warrant him in the discussion as best goalie ever let alone top 5.

they're heavily team based accomplishments.

I blow a gasket when people put down one of the greatest goaltenders in history because they're too juvenile to handle the results of a ridiculously misplaced poll that shouldn't exist.

open your f***in eyes, go look at the blog i showed you. you're in for a massive surprise.

Lidstrom is winning, so it's not like your accusations hold any water. they're just idiotic assumptions, you figured i just must be jealous or pissed a red wing is being contested as best.

Do you work for Fox News? I mean seriously, this is like the ultimate spin job.

yeah, a spin job.

IT'S ******* STATISTICAL FACTS AND FIGURES AND NONE OF IT IS STRETCHED OR MISLEADING.

god, take gordie sid and ted out of your name, you make me sick.

And then you say Hasek just HAS to be better (which I am not agreeing or disagreeing with) because he has more Vezinas.

And yet you make no allowances for the fact that a great player can have an advantage over another great player in winning awards when he plays on a lesser team.

ok, let's take some things into account

brodeur has won, behind the same f***in system he's always been behind.

tim thomas this year won it being on one of the best teams in the league.

hasek didn't win because he was on a bad team, that's only what makes it more impressive. he won because he did things no other goalie had ever done or will likely ever do again, with so little help. he was the most dominating goalie to ever play the game. that's what gets you 6 vezinas over the likes of cujo, roy and belfour.

look at who won it befofr hasek, usually roy, belfour and fuhr. by no means bum teams. look at after-brodeur, theodore, thomas and kipper. also didn't play on outstandingly bad teams like hasek did.

i dunno where this whole stupid perception of goalies getting more consideration on bad teams came from. if you put anyone else on those buffalo teams, they would've played like marc f***in denis and anyone who has even slightly studied hasek's career knows how impressive it all was.

It's the same reason why Hank or Pavel can't win an MVP when clearly, they are all around better players than anyone else in the league.

the hart is different than the vezina. the vezina will moreso go to a player regardless of team as i've just shown. hart, just goes to the highest scorer unless point totals were close. that's a constant. the two trophies are very different.

Quit your ******* spin job already. We don't all have turnip written on our ******* heads.

if it's such a spin job howcome you couldn't refute any of it?

it's a factual post which turns the average, casual fan on their head. like you. you've been following the other sheep and just realized marty may be overrated. get over it.

Seriously, what is going on around here? It's like the collective IQ of the board is going down faster than a Thai hooker with a 5 dolla bill being waved in her face.

you really sound like the guy who doesn't want to believe something

look at the blog i showed you. it's all there. you'll see brodeur's average night is made up of 25 shots, the vast majority of which are from the point, easy angles and with no rebounds. they takeinto account the numbers nhl.com doesn't show you. and let's not get into his playoff performances.

his accolades are team oriented and i don't see you doing much refuting at all my friend. you just yell insults with no real rebuttal. all i see from you, is `HE f***IN WON CUPS AND HAS THE MOST WINS AND SHUTOUTS!` which isn`t a real rebutal.

go on. go to the blog i sent you. it`s all there. i want to see you argue against what he`s written.

did you know hasek only lost to a team statistically worse than his twice, and the second only came in 2007, when we shouldn`t have even lost anyway. brodeur has routinely been beaten by teams worse than his. look it up. or we will.

Edited by numberthirtynine

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
I'm sorry. I guess I was operating under the assumption that a Hall of Fame player is pretty damn good... and that was who was typically beating Lidstrom.

Brodeur was not beaten merely by Hasek, Roy and Belfour but by Theodore, Kiprusoff, Osgood, Carey, Joseph, Moog, Vanbiesbrook, Puppa, Hebert, Richter, Dafoe, Kolzig, Turek, Chechmanek, Burke and Nabakov.

How many of them are Hall of Fame players?

The point is that Brodeur was not winning Vezinas until Hasek was retired, Roy was in his final year and Belfour was 37.

It's true that a 27 year-old Brodeur played more games and had more wins on the Devils that year, so I'm not going to argue he did not deserve his Vezina but in the games they did play - Belfour and Roy were still posting better save percentages than Brodeur.

Two players, plus Hall of Famer Belfour -- and then the competition for Brodeur was a bunch of goalies who will never even sniff the Hall of Fame. And Brodeur was not even capable of beating them on a year-to-year basis while Lidstrom was consistently beating Hall of Fame players.

If Brodeur was beating everyone but Hasek and Roy, you might have a point - but he was losing to a LOT of other goalies, as listed above.

For all these ramblings, when its all said and done, many, MANY will consider Brodeur amongst the elite, if not the best ever. I'm not saying he's my pick for #1 all time, just that his name will be bandied about. I guess you will crusade to stop all of those folks and show them how wrong they are?

And in the end, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur will all be mentioned amongst the greatest of the great. Lidstrom is the only one you mentioned from the era, outside of Bourque will will even get a sniff of the coveted top few spots all time for dmen. IMO, the top end talent at goalie was far more competitive than the top end talent for D during their careers. You don't have to agree with that.

When did I ever say Lidstrom does not belong in the Top 5? Do you just make this up as you go?

Not making that up, I thought you said that? I guess you didn't.

I did say he is not in the discussion for greatest defenseman ever, just like Brodeur is not in the discussion for top 5 ever.

Sure. You're coming off real well here.

This isn't a popularity contest and i'm completely at ease with my persona here. I've put as much time into this debate as I saw fit to. If you think you look so much better then great for you. That doesn't mean spit to me. You are an anonymous person behind a keyboard. Unlike you, nobody on a message forum can ever get to me like that. I'm far too confident and have too much self esteem to allow it. :thumbup:

I rather enjoy the way these threads go. The more haters the better. Sheep are sheep. I thought better of you. Now I know. People make mistakes. I read you wrong but rest assured you have solidified yourself into a new, lowered expectation level for me.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
they're heavily team based accomplishments.

open your f***in eyes, go look at the blog i showed you. you're in for a massive surprise.

Lidstrom is winning, so it's not like your accusations hold any water. they're just idiotic assumptions, you figured i just must be jealous or pissed a red wing is being contested as best.

yeah, a spin job.

IT'S ******* STATISTICAL FACTS AND FIGURES AND NONE OF IT IS STRETCHED OR MISLEADING.

god, take gordie sid and ted out of your name, you make me sick.

ok, let's take some things into account

brodeur has won, behind the same f***in system he's always been behind.

tim thomas this year won it being on one of the best teams in the league.

hasek didn't win because he was on a bad team, that's only what makes it more impressive. he won because he did things no other goalie had ever done or will likely ever do again, with so little help. he was the most dominating goalie to ever play the game. that's what gets you 6 vezinas over the likes of cujo, roy and belfour.

look at who won it befofr hasek, usually roy, belfour and fuhr. by no means bum teams. look at after-brodeur, theodore, thomas and kipper. also didn't play on outstandingly bad teams like hasek did.

i dunno where this whole stupid perception of goalies getting more consideration on bad teams came from. if you put anyone else on those buffalo teams, they would've played like marc f***in denis and anyone who has even slightly studied hasek's career knows how impressive it all was.

the hart is different than the vezina. the vezina will moreso go to a player regardless of team as i've just shown. hart, just goes to the highest scorer unless point totals were close. that's a constant. the two trophies are very different.

if it's such a spin job howcome you couldn't refute any of it?

it's a factual post which turns the average, casual fan on their head. like you. you've been following the other sheep and just realized marty may be overrated. get over it.

you really sound like the guy who doesn't want to believe something

look at the blog i showed you. it's all there. you'll see brodeur's average night is made up of 25 shots, the vast majority of which are from the point, easy angles and with no rebounds. they takeinto account the numbers nhl.com doesn't show you. and let's not get into his playoff performances.

his accolades are team oriented and i don't see you doing much refuting at all my friend. you just yell insults with no real rebuttal.

And all of this ranting would actually mean something if I had stated I believe Brodeur to be better than Lidstrom or that I believe Brodeur to be the greatest of all time in goal.

Of course I have stated neither. Merely my opinion that I think he deserves consideration. And despite whatever blog you're referencing, he's going to get that consideration from people who matter. Not you. No me or Egroen. But hockey people. Then what will you do? Claim they're all idiots?

If you don't think Brodeur is going to go down as one of the greatest ever, I would advise locking yourself in a room with no sharp objects upon his retirement.

And what does my username have to do with anything. Like I would take anything you say in that regard to heart. Maybe if I were 7 years old that would work.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
It is just sad the names Gordie, Sid, and Ted have to be brought down by this guy...

Yes, because rational people will connect me, an anonymous message boardie to 3 Red Wings greats in such a way that there view of these great players is somehow being sullied simply because of my name.

No, they won't. Because they're rational and over the age of 12. The only thing being brought down here is the average I.Q. level of forum members.

You should be proud of yourself. But alas, do not fret, by merely registering here, your extreme deficiency has so skewered the numbers that it is too many standard deviations away that it's being thrown out. It's like you don't even exist. :thumbup:

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
Lidstrom is winning, so it's not like your accusations hold any water. they're just idiotic assumptions, you figured i just must be jealous or pissed a red wing is being contested as best.

Whew! What a relief. Considering I clearly stated that I thought Brodeur was better than Nick, I feel overwhelming remorse at this shocking turn of events.

If people paid more attention they'd realize I never once said either is better than the other. (actually I did admit I think Nicky is better :) ) But like most times, you can't go against the grain without people thinking you're bagging on one side or the other. It's like there's no room for middle ground on planet LGW.

I thought the poll was stupid when Brodeur was winning it. I still think it's stupid now. So you're entire point means exactly what? Let me tell you. I means you have a comprehension problem. I suggest adding more legumes to your diet.

Edited by GordieSid&Ted

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

Egroen.....if we can let's change speeds here for a second.

Putting any personal bias aside. Where do you see the hockey world at large, the writers, HOF voters, hockey universe in general putting Brodeur when he retires?

Who do you think he will be mentioned in the same breath with?

While we are at it, what about Nick?

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And all of this ranting would actually mean something if I had stated I believe Brodeur to be better than Lidstrom or that I believe Brodeur to be the greatest of all time in goal.

Of course I have stated neither. Merely my opinion that I think he deserves consideration. And despite whatever blog you're referencing, he's going to get that consideration from people who matter. Not you. No me or Egroen. But hockey people. Then what will you do? Claim they're all idiots?

idiots? no. going along with the crowd? oh f*** yeah. who do you think is overrating crosby, fleury, or any number of players throughout history? plenty of players. theodore? huet? we could go on and on forever and crash the server with all the players given inappropriate praise.

the term overrated at it's very heart comes from "hockey people" praising one player and failing ot praise another appropriately. it happens everyday. just because they wear a suit and speak on tv doesn't mean they're any more educated on this than some people online.

as that blog quite obviously shows, if you'd dare actually read it.

If you don't think Brodeur is going to go down as one of the greatest ever, I would advise locking yourself in a room with no sharp objects upon his retirement.

this is what we're talking about-you don't try to form arguments, you just either insult people without making a decent argument or just try to make jokes.

And what does my username have to do with anything. Like I would take anything you say in that regard to heart. Maybe if I were 7 years old that would work.

it wasn't an insult. it truly sickens me that we even have to have this conversation on here.

this is all? this is the end of your post? if you want to f***in argue brodeur as overrated or underrated, DO IT. or f***in leave. you're not doing anything other than just yelling at us that we're wrong with no evidence to prove any of it. you're just resorting to what most people do when they're wrong-tell us a larger group of people think something we don't, like large groups of people being wrong doesn't happen every minute of every day. the canadian media has drilled into our heads that winning is everything, and goalies get all the credit for team accomplishments, and you went right along for the ride.

other people, chose to question it and saw that underneath it all, brodeur is a guy who sinks in the clutch, has some of the easiest shot quality of any goalie ever and can't carry a team.

Edited by numberthirtynine

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
idiots? no. going along with the crowd? oh f*** yeah. who do you think is overrating crosby, fleury, or any number of players throughout history? plenty of players. theodore? huet? we could go on and on forever and crash the server with all the players given inappropriate praise.

It's one thing to say Huet or Jim Carey was overrated. It's quite another to say the all time leader in wins, 2nd in shutouts, blah, blah, blah, who has done it for what, 15 years or so?........is overrated. Flash in the pan, flavor of the month is nothing like Brodeur. At least I think so. Not sure how one of us is going to be proven right or wrong on this.

the term overrated at it's very heart comes from "hockey people" praising one player and failing ot praise another appropriately. it happens everyday. just because they wear a suit and speak on tv doesn't mean they're any more educated on this than some people online.

very true. And I never stated that they were any brighter now did I? Assumption is the mother of all f*** ups my friend. I merely stated that these people may indeed feel differently about Brodeur. I was merely wondering what you guys would think would say, a Scotty Bowman say something about Brodeur being the best or one of the best ever. It's merely a hypothetical and not necessarily a commentary on the utter genius of Barry Melrose for example

as that blog quite obviously shows, if you'd dare actually read it.

this is what we're talking about-you don't try to form arguments, you just either insult people without making a decent argument or just try to make jokes.

what's wrong with arguing and joking? I rather enjoy both. I make the points I want to make and I put as much effort into making them as I feel is necessary. I'm not trying to win a ******* LGW Gold Medal for debate.

it wasn't an insult. it truly sickens me that we even have to have this conversation on here.

Which conversation? And if this makes you ill, you should log off and grow a pair. :P

this is all? this is the end of your post? if you want to f***in argue brodeur as overrated or underrated, DO IT. or f***in leave. you're not doing anything other than just yelling at us that we're wrong with no evidence to prove any of it. you're just resorting to what most people do when they're wrong-tell us a larger group of people think something we don't, like large groups of people being wrong doesn't happen every minute of every day. the canadian media has drilled into our heads that winning is everything, and goalies get all the credit for team accomplishments, and you went right along for the ride.

other people, chose to question it and saw that underneath it all, brodeur is a guy who sinks in the clutch, has some of the easiest shot quality of any goalie ever and can't carry a team.

As for him sinking in the clutch or not being able to carry a team or facing easy shots....how exactly can one come to such a conclusion when the man still has

most wins

most overtime wins

3 cups

3 vezinas

2nd most shutouts regular season

tied for most shutouts combined regular and post season

most shutouts in a playoff year

tied most shutouts in the post season

most shutouts in a stanley cup final

2nd most playoff wins

He's got alot going for him. And like they always say, they don't count how they go in, just how many. Likewise, they aren't going to count how many shots were taken from 50 feet out with no screen.

I find it hard to call a man "overrated" who has consistently been as good as he has and has reached the milestones he has. I look at his stats and see a career playoff GAA under 2.....which, how many goalies with 14 post seasons under their belt can boast. And not forgetting the man has played how many playoff games, like 170 or something.

I think he's pretty darn good. What do you want me to do, change my mind and say he blows or is overrated? Just look at the face of that argument..............most victorious goalie in history, 3 time cup, 3 time vezina winner is overrated. That sounds so ******* stupid and implausible to me.

Whatever

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For all these ramblings, when its all said and done, many, MANY will consider Brodeur amongst the elite, if not the best ever. I'm not saying he's my pick for #1 all time, just that his name will be bandied about. I guess you will crusade to stop all of those folks and show them how wrong they are?

And in the end, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur will all be mentioned amongst the greatest of the great. Lidstrom is the only one you mentioned from the era, outside of Bourque will will even get a sniff of the coveted top few spots all time for dmen. IMO, the top end talent at goalie was far more competitive than the top end talent for D during their careers. You don't have to agree with that.

You're right, many, especially amongst those who started watching hockey in the 2000s will just assume Brodeur is the best of all-time. Just like many assume Crosby and Ovechkin already are as well. Hasek's just a scrub who fell apart in the playoffs against Nashville, Chelios is a nothing and boring Lidstrom is a ***** who was just pawned by Chara and Green.

I am not on a crusade... I did not post a comment at that website, and I can certainly accept many are going to think otherwise. I am posting at a Red Wings forum about it, where I thought others might be interested in it. While you are out to prove I am a retard for backing up my opinions, maybe others are interested in actually "Why is Lidstrom better than Brodeur?" instead of merely spouting off an opinion with nothing to back it up. In addition to watching both of them play and forming the opinion Lidstrom is better, the stats, facts and awards happen to agree with my opinion, as well as hockey analysts and historians. I enjoy reading and learning about hockey history and made an assumption others could be of likemind. I simply like talking about hockey and its history.

Thankfully you are around to slap some sense into me.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
Thankfully you are around to slap some sense into me.

If that's an invitation I think now an appropriate time to let you know you aren't my type. :thumbup: But I am flattered.

I said I think Lids is better too, so why the hell are we arguing? Because I called you retarded? But you are retarded, aren't you? If not, then by all means you should disregard my accusations as merely the ramblings of a bitter old man who really doesn't like Jason Williams and has mistakenly taken his angst over the situation out on others.

Brodeur is awesome. He's the greatest goalie ever! Put that in your pipe and smoke it folks! (que the GS&T roast)

ps: I like history too. I just picked up a a nearly 90 year old Tris Speaker card the other day. whoot!

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As for him sinking in the clutch or not being able to carry a team or facing easy shots....how exactly can one come to such a conclusion when the man still has

most wins

most overtime wins

3 cups

3 vezinas

2nd most shutouts regular season

tied for most shutouts combined regular and post season

most shutouts in a playoff year

tied most shutouts in the post season

most shutouts in a stanley cup final

2nd most playoff wins

I tell you you're bringing up team heavy and longevity based achievements and yet you do it again-it's all you've got.

I bolded the one that isn't.

Are you seriously asking me how he got shutouts and wins by facing easy shots? Think about that for a minute.

Fact is, play on a team as talented as NJ for your whole career and you're going to win eventually. What gets ignored is his poor play year after year. He completely s*** the bed every year since 2003 and routinely lost to worse teams before that, too culminating in this seasons f***in embarrassing game 7. NJ had the game locked up with a min left or so and he lets in two weak goals to blow the whole thing. Naturally Cherry and the Canadian media that acts as his lap dog defended him blindly but they were easy saves. Both of them. Also, the blog has excellent interpretations of his play in very specific situations where he routinely ranks among the most average goalies in the league. GO LOOK AT IT. You f***in refuse to even look at it.

He's got alot going for him. And like they always say, they don't count how they go in, just how many. Likewise, they aren't going to count how many shots were taken from 50 feet out with no screen.

Actually, they do keep track of all of this. It's all there. Statisticians at games keep track of far more than you'd think. Shot quality is something the NHL refuses to acknowledge but is a great show of what a goalie faces nightly.

I find it hard to call a man "overrated" who has consistently been as good as he has and has reached the milestones he has.

i'm telling you exactly how yo ucan find out but you're too damn scared to look

I look at his stats and see a career playoff GAA under 2.....which, how many goalies with 14 post seasons under their belt can boast. And not forgetting the man has played how many playoff games, like 170 or something.

You have no idea how much deeper those numbers go. You just pulled out one that looked really good.

I think he's pretty darn good. What do you want me to do, change my mind and say he blows or is overrated?

opening your mind and shifting you away from the other sheep to see what is what would be nice. but you came in here with a chip on your shoulder and were overly proud, and obviously didn't want an intelligent discussion so i don't think you'll change.

Just look at the face of that argument..............most victorious goalie in history, 3 time cup, 3 time vezina winner is overrated. That sounds so ******* stupid and implausible to me.

Whatever

It would because that's hwo you've practically been trained to think. You won't dig deeper. It's like you have a comfort zone and you lash otu at anyone trying to bring you into reality.

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Egroen.....if we can let's change speeds here for a second.

Putting any personal bias aside. Where do you see the hockey world at large, the writers, HOF voters, hockey universe in general putting Brodeur when he retires?

Who do you think he will be mentioned in the same breath with?

While we are at it, what about Nick?

Brodeur will be a top 10 goaltender while Lidstrom will be a top 5 defenseman.

Both are still playing and can improve their standing, but in many minds Lidstrom has only recently passed Dennis Potvin and Red Kelly (some still have him behind them), with Bourque, Shore and Harvey in the next tier still a ways off and Bobby Orr untouchable.

Brodeur has a long ways to go if he wants to be considered in the same tier as Hasek, Plante and Roy - which will be hard to do at 37, especially after he has finally started to show signs of wear and tear. Sawchuk and Hall would be next, and Brodeur could possibly get in there but it's doubtful (Hall had the equivelent of 7 Vezinas and Sawchuk's peak is up there with Hasek's). International goalies like Tretiak and Holocek are hard to rate, but many swear they are the best ever.

Brodeur is a very good goalie on a very good team - sort of like Osgood X2 who may get into the Hall of Fame himself by being a good goalie on a great team. While you can argue goalies like Belfour and Joseph are "better" goalies and would have had more success than Brodeur on a team like the Devils - they ultimately did not, and you have to rate Brodeur ahead of them "all-time". He is in there right now with Dryden who had even more success on a much better team, but with a shorter career as well as Parent, Benedict, Brimsek, Durnam, Broda and Esposito with arguments going back and forth over career vs. peak.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
Man, that GS&T guy sounds pretty concerned with I.Q.'s.

No just yours. I am befuddled by your apparently low standing yet at the same time am equally amazed at your ability to utilize the internet.

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GS&T, because of your endless rambling I have completely forgotten what you are talking about.

But Brodeur the greatest goalie ever? Brodeur is posting a career save% of .914. If you ask me it does not matter how many career wins he has and such. How many games played does he have? 999, he is second behind none other than Patty Roy! That is far as I am going, because from what I can see you will never stop arguing this topic. Please, do not feel obligated to quote or reply to this, I do not really care. Thanks!

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Guest GordieSid&Ted
It would because that's hwo you've practically been trained to think. You won't dig deeper. It's like you have a comfort zone and you lash otu at anyone trying to bring you into reality.

Well where exactly would you put him then all time? Me thinks he'd be the lowest rated player with the most impressive stats in the history of sport.

And I didn't check out the website you referenced because I don't ******* care all that much about Martin Brodeur. I'm having a dandy time simply stating how I feel about the man. I've seen him play. He didn't look all that s***ty in 96 if I recall. Either way, you see him how you want. I'm not ******* Fox Mulder and I don't care to dig any deeper. He's done enough in his career for me to think he's been a fantastic goalie.

You'll have to find a way to deal with that.

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It's way too homeristic to say "Oh, Lidstrom without question." I mean, I'd pick Lidstrom too, but there is some debate to this. We're looking at one of the best goalies ever vs one of the best defenseman ever... They both have strong value to their respective teams.

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Well where exactly would you put him then all time? Me thinks he'd be the lowest rated player with the most impressive stats in the history of sport.

If you put as much effort into forming arguments and debating topics as you did making up stupid assumptions we might be having a decent conversation here. As it stands, you're just puking out this crap. Where would I have him ranked? Do you really want to fan the flames and make a list?

And I didn't check out the website you referenced because I don't ******* care all that much about Martin Brodeur.

Oh I think you do. You're in here defending him, telling us we're wrong. That's perfect reason enough to check it out. You're f***in scared. Stop dodging it. God I hate people who talk all big and back down.

I'm having a dandy time simply stating how I feel about the man. I've seen him play. He didn't look all that s***ty in 96 if I recall. Either way, you see him how you want. I'm not ******* Fox Mulder and I don't care to dig any deeper. He's done enough in his career for me to think he's been a fantastic goalie.

Translation: I'm happy living in my world of BS because it's comforting. Anything that rattles my comfort zone will be promptly ignored. Baaaaah baaah baaah.

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