Zherdev to KHL

[mmamolo 287]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20080605/SP...never+grows+old

...gee, I guess Bob Wojnowski must be prejudice too. Dude there's a reason people want to ignore you. 16 years eh? Why don't come back when you are out of diapers?

ya, I am just making this s*** up, because I am prejudice!

The problem I have with Shoreline, and it seems other do too, is the fact that the way he writes his posts he shows a disregard for other people's opinions. He comes across as though he is talkign down to you and that he values his own opinion far more than anyone else's. He doesn't express his opinions in a logical and uninsulting fashion. Instead, he gets on his high horse and tries to demean you and your opinions.

Don't sweat it. Don't let his ignorance get on your nerves.

[egroen 384]

The KHL currently allows each team to sign one "star" player over the salary cap.

They will soon be amnding their CBA to allow for two players over the cap per team.

Translated:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y...history_state0=

The KHL recognizes they exist in a competitive environment, something the NHL refuses to acknowledge to this point.

[VM1138 1,921]

Is it just me, or does the more players the KHL steal actually make them LESS respectable in the eyes of the world? I see them grabbing big names, but I still sort of view them as this strange, copy-cat cousin who nobody likes.

[RedArmy 4]

those low taxes in Russia make it very attractive to sign...

[mmamolo 287]

Is it just me, or does the more players the KHL steal actually make them LESS respectable in the eyes of the world? I see them grabbing big names, but I still sort of view them as this strange, copy-cat cousin who nobody likes.

I could see how a lot of ppl would view the KHL that way. At the same time however I could also see how if this trend continues that ppl's view on the KHL changes. At the end of the day ppl want to see good hockey and despite the loyal fans never leaving their teams that doesnt mean that the KHL wont gain momentum. Personally, as much as I love the Wings and wouldn't stray from them, I would watch the KHL if the quality of games was better than the NHL. I wouldn't stop watching the Wings, but I would watch two sick KHL teams play over Phoenix vs New York Islanders. My point is I, like a lot of fans, have allegiance to a team, not the NHL. If the KHL puts out a better product I could see myself tuning in to see what happens over NHL games I dont particularly care for.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Nowhere in my statement did I refer to Euro's being worse or better than North AMerican's, so that is off-sides there. Again, Euro's have historically had the notion that they cared more about World Championships. The fact that these Euro's are bolting to another league to win and/or get paid just solidify's that notion a little bit. Even though ALL pro's love winning, not ALL pro hockey players covet the Stanley Cup as the holiest grail in the world. Most "World" players covet World Championships and Olympic Golds moreso. North Americans (for the most part) covet the Stanley Cup more than Olympic Gold/W.C.'s.

And just because that theory holds a little bit of water with me, doesn't mean I don't like our team the way it is (hence the Swedish/Wings jersey.) I fully acknowledge the European (mostly Swedish) influence that has made this team a Dynasty., but to say the likes of Yzerman, Shanahan, LaPointe, Brown, Murphy, Osgood, Hull, Robitaille, Draper, Maltby, Kocur and most recently Helm & Cleary has nothing to do with our dominance either is way, way off base...

If your initial post was an attempt to show how a fictional stereotype is being propgated by financial situations, then it was not something I got from it, or get from it while rereading it. "Now they are leaving for money, not really caring if they win a cup or not"....

And, as long as we're pointing out misinterpretations, I never have and never would attempt to dilute the impact and importance of the Canadians on our team, that would be moronic and hypocritical.... that being said, most of the posts I read on these forums from Wings fans have this idolized and fantasized memory of our past and what we were like as a more physically intimidating team.... I mean, our bruise brothers days were among the franchise's worst, and, while Kocur was on our back to back team, he was at the twilight of his career, and not an enforcer presence.... and I was merely pointing out that as our roster slowly emptied of the goonish elements (our goonery was never heavy anyways), our success actually INCREASED...

Which leads me back to the point on Europeans in the NHL... Regardless of what Don Cherry says, there is ZERO/ZILCH/NADA in terms of evidence to suggest that a Canadian will try harder to win the cup than a European based on a deeper desire to win it.. That being said, modern sports is purely BUSINESS, it's sad, but true... In the modern NHL your Joe Sakic is just as likely to hold out for more money as your Peter Forsberg... and it isn't just Europeans that have opted to take their careers to the KHL, you'll see plenty of Canadians on those rosters, and probably more if there is a continued discrepancy in salaries.

Is it just me, or does the more players the KHL steal actually make them LESS respectable in the eyes of the world? I see them grabbing big names, but I still sort of view them as this strange, copy-cat cousin who nobody likes.

Were you turned off to the NHL when they began (and continue) to poach players from around the world? Do you know how many Europeans have jumped ship for the NHL in the middle of contracts? Quite frankly it isn't stealing, they have the same right to sign players that we do... it isn't a one-way deal... The NHL really has very little room to complain.

[mmamolo 287]

If your initial post was an attempt to show how a fictional stereotype is being propgated by financial situations, then it was not something I got from it, or get from it while rereading it. "Now they are leaving for money, not really caring if they win a cup or not"....

And, as long as we're pointing out misinterpretations, I never have and never would attempt to dilute the impact and importance of the Canadians on our team, that would be moronic and hypocritical.... that being said, most of the posts I read on these forums from Wings fans have this idolized and fantasized memory of our past and what we were like as a more physically intimidating team.... I mean, our bruise brothers days were among the franchise's worst, and, while Kocur was on our back to back team, he was at the twilight of his career, and not an enforcer presence.... and I was merely pointing out that as our roster slowly emptied of the goonish elements (our goonery was never heavy anyways), our success actually INCREASED...

Which leads me back to the point on Europeans in the NHL... Regardless of what Don Cherry says, there is ZERO/ZILCH/NADA in terms of evidence to suggest that a Canadian will try harder to win the cup than a European based on a deeper desire to win it.. That being said, modern sports is purely BUSINESS, it's sad, but true... In the modern NHL your Joe Sakic is just as likely to hold out for more money as your Peter Forsberg... and it isn't just Europeans that have opted to take their careers to the KHL, you'll see plenty of Canadians on those rosters, and probably more if there is a continued discrepancy in salaries.

Were you turned off to the NHL when they began (and continue) to poach players from around the world? Do you know how many Europeans have jumped ship for the NHL in the middle of contracts? Quite frankly it isn't stealing, they have the same right to sign players that we do... it isn't a one-way deal... The NHL really has very little room to complain.

Since it's been somewhat common place for it to happen no one can really complain. But at the same time, personally, I think if you have a contract with any team, anywhere in the world it should be honoured. An NHL contract shouldn't just stop you from being able to sign a contract with another NHL team. It should be representative of your commitment to play hockey for that particular team for the duration of your signed agreement. It shouldn't matter if you in the NHL, KHL, european leagues etc. A contract is a contract.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Since it's been somewhat common place for it to happen no one can really complain. But at the same time, personally, I think if you have a contract with any team, anywhere in the world it should be honoured. An NHL contract shouldn't just stop you from being able to sign a contract with another NHL team. It should be representative of your commitment to play hockey for that particular team for the duration of your signed agreement. It shouldn't matter if you in the NHL, KHL, european leagues etc. A contract is a contract.

Agreed, and it would be nice if businessmen actually had ethical standards like that, but they usually do not (at least the successful ones). Which is why so many agreements have been made with different leagues around the world, and also why they need to begin negotiating with the KHL.

That being said, IMO the KHL has been pretty respectful to the NHL in regards to player signings. There is nothing to stop them from bidding on players under contract (minus the IIHF, which wouldn't do much anyways), but both the NHL and KHL have been abstaining from doing so in order to keep future negotiations peaceful. All of the big name signings that have occurred have mostly been with unsigned players (Hudler's situation being a little ambiguous).

Edited August 13, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[mmamolo 287]

Agreed, and it would be nice if businessmen actually had ethical standards like that, but they usually do not (at least the successful ones). Which is why so many agreements have been made with different leagues around the world, and also why they need to begin negotiating with the KHL.

That being said, IMO the KHL has been pretty respectful to the NHL in regards to player signings. There is nothing to stop them from bidding on players under contract (minus the IIHF, which wouldn't do much anyways), but both the NHL and KHL have been abstaining from doing so in order to keep future negotiations peaceful. All of the big name signings that have occurred have mostly been with unsigned players (Hudler's situation being a little ambiguous).

Yeah you're right the KHL has been pretty good so far. I do think that the KHL showed its interest in Hudler prematurely and it made his decision clear. But that's just a matter of opinion. I believe that Hudler filing for arbitration was a legally binding commitment to play for the Red Wings this season. Other ppl believe differently and I guess the KHL did as well.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Yeah you're right the KHL has been pretty good so far. I do think that the KHL showed its interest in Hudler prematurely and it made his decision clear. But that's just a matter of opinion. I believe that Hudler filing for arbitration was a legally binding commitment to play for the Red Wings this season. Other ppl believe differently and I guess the KHL did as well.

Well, honestly, I got the feeling that the Wings were pretty happy with the results anyways. We got replacements for cheaper, and he will be coming back (probably) in his prime for a very cap-friendly 2.5 a year... Plus he gets two years of experience as a 1st line forward, which should help him become develop his defensive and offensive game.. It really could (emphasis on could) wind up being a very advantageous situation for the Wings, which is why I'm not as mad about it as I normally would be.

[mmamolo 287]

Well, honestly, I got the feeling that the Wings were pretty happy with the results anyways. We got replacements for cheaper, and he will be coming back (probably) in his prime for a very cap-friendly 2.5 a year... Plus he gets two years of experience as a 1st line forward, which should help him become develop his defensive and offensive game.. It really could (emphasis on could) wind up being a very advantageous situation for the Wings, which is why I'm not as mad about it as I normally would be.

100% agree the situation has worked out very well for the Wings and if Hudler does return and is that much better of a player that cap hit will be a real bonus for us. But despite how well this has worked out for the Wings I still cant agree with the how it all went down. It's a matter of principle. Personally I think the KHL was in the wrong to sign Hudler here, as was Hudler to sign that contract, and based on what I believed was a binding commitment to play in Detroit by filing for arbitration I think Hudler should have been in Detroit next year.

Personally, I glad the way it's worked out because I think the Wings are in a better standing without Hudler this season. But the principle makes it tough to swallow, not the hopefulyl temporary lose of Hudler.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

100% agree the situation has worked out very well for the Wings and if Hudler does return and is that much better of a player that cap hit will be a real bonus for us. But despite how well this has worked out for the Wings I still cant agree with the how it all went down. It's a matter of principle. Personally I think the KHL was in the wrong to sign Hudler here, as was Hudler to sign that contract, and based on what I believed was a binding commitment to play in Detroit by filing for arbitration I think Hudler should have been in Detroit next year.

Personally, I glad the way it's worked out because I think the Wings are in a better standing without Hudler this season. But the principle makes it tough to swallow, not the hopefulyl temporary lose of Hudler.

I can see it from both perspectives, which is why I initially called the situation ambiguous. None of the Russian leagues have arbitration (nor do most any foreign markets), and as such they do not view it as a legitimate contract.. not to mention, no foreign market (even the ones with strict agreements with the NHL) have any regard for restricted free-agency in general, which essentially makes it an NHL specific circumstance, as globally a RFA and a FA are pretty much the same thing, and no foreign market is penalized, or required to contribute compensation (like an NHL club would have to), for signing RFAs. So again, that whole arbitration/RFA stuff is presently a pretty large gray area, which needs to be addressed.

What is weird to me is that Medvedev had said they were going to abide by the arbitrator's decision, then filed Hudler's contract the day before (which is when Holland and Hudler's agent came to the two year-5 mil deal if I am correct, because if I remember correctly they never actually made it all the way to arbitration).. So, to my estimation, the word must have been out that a deal was reached and all parties were satisfied before the contract was actually validated in Russia anyways.

[LeftWinger 5,151]

If your initial post was an attempt to show how a fictional stereotype is being propgated by financial situations, then it was not something I got from it, or get from it while rereading it. "Now they are leaving for money, not really caring if they win a cup or not"....

And, as long as we're pointing out misinterpretations, I never have and never would attempt to dilute the impact and importance of the Canadians on our team, that would be moronic and hypocritical.... that being said, most of the posts I read on these forums from Wings fans have this idolized and fantasized memory of our past and what we were like as a more physically intimidating team.... I mean, our bruise brothers days were among the franchise's worst, and, while Kocur was on our back to back team, he was at the twilight of his career, and not an enforcer presence.... and I was merely pointing out that as our roster slowly emptied of the goonish elements (our goonery was never heavy anyways), our success actually INCREASED...

Which leads me back to the point on Europeans in the NHL... Regardless of what Don Cherry says, there is ZERO/ZILCH/NADA in terms of evidence to suggest that a Canadian will try harder to win the cup than a European based on a deeper desire to win it.. That being said, modern sports is purely BUSINESS, it's sad, but true... In the modern NHL your Joe Sakic is just as likely to hold out for more money as your Peter Forsberg... and it isn't just Europeans that have opted to take their careers to the KHL, you'll see plenty of Canadians on those rosters, and probably more if there is a continued discrepancy in salaries.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...amp;pid=1765611

Pay close attention to the QUOTE from the article. Euros have ALWAYS te label that they don't want the Cup as much as North Americans it doen't mean they don't want to win whatever league championship they are playing for, but as ANY European born player which is more important the Stanley Cup -or- an Olympic Gold medal, ask the same question to a North American, you'll get a different answer. It doesn't change my view of them, hell, my all time favorite player is Fedorov, and I absolutely LOVE the makeup of our team right now, so you have failed at the attempt of pointing the finger of prejudice towards me!

[sibiriak 84]

...ask ANY European born player which is more important the Stanley Cup -or- an Olympic Gold medal, ask the same question to a North American, you'll get a different answer ...

Actually, if you ask any hockey player (any nationality) that question, you will get the same answer:

"The most important prize is the one I'm playing for right now."

[sibiriak 84]

dude, re-read it. I simply said the Euro's have always had the stigmata that they didn't care about the Cup. I didn't make it up or say they didn't. I just said it solidify's that notion. SUre they want to win, all pro athletes do, but the notion was they cherished World Champioships and Olympic Golds MORE than the Stanley Cup, which wasn't/isn't a world Trophy. IT's a league trophy. Guys in GRR want to win their respective championship too. I am just saying ([b]if you've been around the NHL long enough to know[/b]) the notion is Euro's just don't view the Cup as the ultimate nth degree championship as much as North Americans do.

So, when you repeat this stereotype, do you agree with it or not? Either you embrace this "notion" and accept the critisism for it, or you reject it, and then it's unclear why you mentioned Zherdev's possible contract and "desire to win the Cup" toghether.

Otherwise, you remind me of someone repeating nasty gossip and then saying: "I don't personally agree with gossiping, but that's what people are saying". Have the corage of your convictions!

P.S. I have followed NHL hockey for over 25 years, last 18 of which very closely.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Actually, if you ask any hockey player (any nationality) that question, you will get the same answer:

"The most important prize is the one I'm playing for right now."

Sadly, the trend is becoming more and more about playing for the $$$$.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...amp;pid=1765611

Pay close attention to the QUOTE from the article. Euros have ALWAYS te label that they don't want the Cup as much as North Americans it doen't mean they don't want to win whatever league championship they are playing for, but as ANY European born player which is more important the Stanley Cup -or- an Olympic Gold medal, ask the same question to a North American, you'll get a different answer. It doesn't change my view of them, hell, my all time favorite player is Fedorov, and I absolutely LOVE the makeup of our team right now, so you have failed at the attempt of pointing the finger of prejudice towards me!

What point are you exactly trying to make? You gave an article that says: "Lidstrom is firmly entrenched as one of the greatest players in history, while obliterating the notion European players don't crave the Cup as much. What utter nonsense that turned out to be."... and then you turn right around and say "you'll get a different answer" in terms of what is the priority to win.... Those are contrary statements, unless your whole big point in regurgitating stereotypes that you apparently don't believe in is to show that Euros prefer a gold medal to a cup? And?

And, if you want to know what your typical answer will be to your Stanley vs Gold question, I've read enough answers to those to tell you that it will read something like: "They are too different to compare. One comes around every 4 years and is over very quickly, and one happens every year and takes a lot to win." You want proof? Just look up any interview with Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Semin, or any other Ruski... above all other nationalities, they are asked that question the most...

[LeftWinger 5,151]

What point are you exactly trying to make? You gave an article that says: "Lidstrom is firmly entrenched as one of the greatest players in history, while obliterating the notion European players don't crave the Cup as much. What utter nonsense that turned out to be."... and then you turn right around and say "you'll get a different answer" in terms of what is the priority to win.... Those are contrary statements, unless your whole big point in regurgitating stereotypes that you apparently don't believe in is to show that Euros prefer a gold medal to a cup? And?

And, if you want to know what your typical answer will be to your Stanley vs Gold question, I've read enough answers to those to tell you that it will read something like: "They are too different to compare. One comes around every 4 years and is over very quickly, and one happens every year and takes a lot to win." You want proof? Just look up any interview with Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Semin, or any other Ruski... above all other nationalities, they are asked that question the most...

my only point was proving that the notion actually exists, whether or not its true is not certain. Do I believe it? Well the more Euros that split for the KHL for more money, yes, I believe that to them, the Cup is just another trophy to win or lose and not (as most North Americans believe) hockey Holiest Grail. My point with the article was to prove to Shoreline that I didn't make up this notion and that it is out there. My comparison with Zherdev is exactly what that notion points to, and that is, like I mentioned a second ago, the Cup is just another trophy to them, will they compete their harest for it, yes, but the notion is they crave it less than most N.A.'s. Of course according to the article, Lidstrom obliterated the NOTION that they don't crave the Cup, but my point was that the notion existed, not whether or not it was true. Shoreline's point was he had never heard of this in all the 16 years he has been watching hockey, and said pretty much, I made it up becuase I am prejudice towards Europeans...

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

my only point was proving that the notion actually exists, whether or not its true is not certain. Do I believe it? Well the more Euros that split for the KHL for more money, yes, I believe that to them, the Cup is just another trophy to win or lose and not (as most North Americans believe) hockey Holiest Grail. My point with the article was to prove to Shoreline that I didn't make up this notion and that it is out there. My comparison with Zherdev is exactly what that notion points to, and that is, like I mentioned a second ago, the Cup is just another trophy to them, will they compete their harest for it, yes, but the notion is they crave it less than most N.A.'s. Of course according to the article, Lidstrom obliterated the NOTION that they don't crave the Cup, but my point was that the notion existed, not whether or not it was true. Shoreline's point was he had never heard of this in all the 16 years he has been watching hockey, and said pretty much, I made it up becuase I am prejudice towards Europeans...

Ok.... so...... the notion exists... fine....... and guys who leave for the KHL don't have the cup as their #1 priority..... fine

What's troublesome to me is that you present it as somewhat of a Euro-exclusivity. "As most North Americans believe". The fact of it is, the cup is a bonus to pretty much anyone playing in the league, if we're to be honest with ourselves. The classiest, loyalist guys in modern NHL history (who are long gone as a breed) were playing to win the cup... sure... but they were also playing for... you guessed it, GREEN... MOOLA... CASH.... and damn if they weren't trying their hardest to get that money when it was a contract year (remember the Sakic holdout? Or Roenick leaving the Hawks for money, which upon retiring he said he wish he spent his entire career there, but they just weren't willing to spend enough... Briere was pretty quick to leave a contender for 10 mil a year... or how Kariya verbally agreed to take a pay cut for Anahiem so they could sign a few extra pieces, but then bolted... and then we can look at Danny Heatley, or Thorton). You're going to have a hard time finding classier players that don't take the time to occasionally remind us all that while the cup is nice, the money is nicer.... and these stories are always back pagers compared to any time a Euro holds out or switches leagues.

and, as i said before, expect the number of Canadians in the KHL to rise dramatically as the league rises in prominence and pay, so perhaps in a few years I could make the same assertion about Canadian players with what amounts to the exact same depth of evidence. As it is there are quite a few of them there, a good number of which could be on NHL rosters at this very moment... Here's just a small sample (it's incomplete, but I don't feel like trying to navigate Russian sites for complete rosters, but every one of them has NHL experience, minus Kariya's brother who could have been a regular if he wanted to)... Marc Lamothe, Steve McCarthy, Kevin Dallman, Trevor Letowski, Dan LaCouture, Martin Grenier, Pierre Dagenais, Bryan Berard, Derrick Walser, Chris Simon, Nathan Perrott, David Nemirovsky, Mark Popovic, Ray Giroux, Robert Esche, Eric Landry, Andy Chiodo, Ben Clymer, Geoff Platt, Mike Iggulden, Martin Kariya (Paul’s brother)

Now, I've never implied you made the stereotype up, or that you fully believe it... However, any euro who has come over here comes over with the intention of making a long-lasting career here... And therefore, the cup of the most importance is the one they play for yearly, and the one that will be representative of their career achievements and accolades. The NHL isn't Vegas where you go to it, give it a spin, and hope for the best payday possible... still, if you aren't getting offered what you're worth (which in Zherdev's case he isn't even being offered what the Arbitrator deemed fair) then it's a little illogical to expect some grand dedication to the NHL and its hardware for a young kid with his entire career ahead of him.

Edited August 14, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild