Injuries do not add cap space

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

So besides being busy having meetings for the Olympics, Kenny's no. 1 priority should be locking up anyone that he can for the next year (officially or unoffically in cases of Nick, etc.)...

As far as trades/pickups, it's far too early. Figure late December or January if making the playoffs is an issue, trade deadline trading otherwise. Goalie trading may happen anytime... unfortunately.

[Z and D for the C 712]

When the injured player comes back, isn't the cap hit only the amount of games he actually plays? So, using completely arbitrary numbers, tell me if this is correct.

At the start of the season a team has a $50 million total salary, and the salary cap is $50 million. Before the first game a $5 million/year player is placed on LTIR. This team would now have $5 million cap room until the injured player returns, but then obviously would need to be cap compliant for the player to return. Now lets say that exactly half way through the season this player comes back (after missing 41 games). Since the player missed 51 games and half the season, providing the $5 million in cap space was never used, would the team have a total $47.5 cap hit, and thus $2.5 million free space?

Now lets say Filppula misses 20 games, wouldn't that mean that when Filppula comes back his cap hit is only 62/82ths of his total average hit? So given that he has a 3 million yearly average per 82 games, when he comes back he'll only count for 2.27m? And if Franzen misses 41 games (which is probably very optimistic) his cap hit will only be 1.97m, right? So the total salary space gained would be around 2.7m.

[stevkrause 1,247]

When the injured player comes back, isn't the cap hit only the amount of games he actually plays? So, using completely arbitrary numbers, tell me if this is correct.

At the start of the season a team has a $50 million total salary, and the salary cap is $50 million. Before the first game a $5 million/year player is placed on LTIR. This team would now have $5 million cap room until the injured player returns, but then obviously would need to be cap compliant for the player to return. Now lets say that exactly half way through the season this player comes back (after missing 41 games). Since the player missed 51 games and half the season, providing the $5 million in cap space was never used, would the team have a total $47.5 cap hit, and thus $2.5 million free space?

Now lets say Filppula misses 20 games, wouldn't that mean that when Filppula comes back his cap hit is only 62/82ths of his total average hit? So given that he has a 3 million yearly average per 82 games, when he comes back he'll only count for 2.27m? And if Franzen misses 41 games (which is probably very optimistic) his cap hit will only be 1.97m, right? So the total salary space gained would be around 2.7m.

basically, yes.

[Slabby 3]

I think there's some kind of misconception going on here.

Cap hits are PER DAY. Nobody at the league is going by the yearly contractual number, because it almost never IS that number at the end. The final cap hit is the per day cap hit multiplied by the actual days. So if Franzen misses some X number of days on LTIR (it HAS to be LTIR), Franzen's cap hit does NOT apply because he is not playing those days. Cap hit/day multiplied by actual days. If Franzen misses something like 2/3 of the season, he will only have a cap hit of 1.something million to the Red Wings because he has only played that many days.

This is the exact same logic as you find in deadline trades. There are only so many days remaining in contracts (and you multiply that by the daily cap hit), so those players are effectively half price on the cap.

so, in summary, the Filppula and Franzen injuries DO give the Wings cap space. Well, provided Fil goes on LTIR.

[Buppy 1,720]

I think there's some kind of misconception going on here.

Cap hits are PER DAY. Nobody at the league is going by the yearly contractual number, because it almost never IS that number at the end. The final cap hit is the per day cap hit multiplied by the actual days. So if Franzen misses some X number of days on LTIR (it HAS to be LTIR), Franzen's cap hit does NOT apply because he is not playing those days. Cap hit/day multiplied by actual days. If Franzen misses something like 2/3 of the season, he will only have a cap hit of 1.something million to the Red Wings because he has only played that many days.

This is the exact same logic as you find in deadline trades. There are only so many days remaining in contracts (and you multiply that by the daily cap hit), so those players are effectively half price on the cap.

so, in summary, the Filppula and Franzen injuries DO give the Wings cap space. Well, provided Fil goes on LTIR.

Both you and the previous poster are mistaken.

Even on LTIR, a players salary still counts against the Averaged Club Salary. The CBA is very clear on that part at least.

[Doggy 130]

Both you and the previous poster are mistaken.

Even on LTIR, a players salary still counts against the Averaged Club Salary. The CBA is very clear on that part at least.

Thank you. I don't know how much clearer I need to make it. I even quoted the CBA itself which says, in black and white, that players on LTIR count against the cap!

When the injured player comes back, isn't the cap hit only the amount of games he actually plays? So, using completely arbitrary numbers, tell me if this is correct.

At the start of the season a team has a $50 million total salary, and the salary cap is $50 million. Before the first game a $5 million/year player is placed on LTIR. This team would now have $5 million cap room until the injured player returns, but then obviously would need to be cap compliant for the player to return. Now lets say that exactly half way through the season this player comes back (after missing 41 games). Since the player missed 51 games and half the season, providing the $5 million in cap space was never used, would the team have a total $47.5 cap hit, and thus $2.5 million free space?

Now lets say Filppula misses 20 games, wouldn't that mean that when Filppula comes back his cap hit is only 62/82ths of his total average hit? So given that he has a 3 million yearly average per 82 games, when he comes back he'll only count for 2.27m? And if Franzen misses 41 games (which is probably very optimistic) his cap hit will only be 1.97m, right? So the total salary space gained would be around 2.7m.

No. If the CBA isn't clear enough here is further proof. Simon Gagne played 25 games for the Flyers in 07-08 and was on LTIR for a long time. However, his cap hit remained the same. Further to that, as previously stated, cap hit are calculated based on days on the active roster and not games played.

basically, yes.

Sk, you really need to read what I've posted here. I don't understand how you can have participated as much as you have in this discussion and then post this. Z and D is completely wrong.

I think there's some kind of misconception going on here.

Cap hits are PER DAY. Nobody at the league is going by the yearly contractual number, because it almost never IS that number at the end. The final cap hit is the per day cap hit multiplied by the actual days. So if Franzen misses some X number of days on LTIR (it HAS to be LTIR), Franzen's cap hit does NOT apply because he is not playing those days. Cap hit/day multiplied by actual days. If Franzen misses something like 2/3 of the season, he will only have a cap hit of 1.something million to the Red Wings because he has only played that many days.

This is the exact same logic as you find in deadline trades. There are only so many days remaining in contracts (and you multiply that by the daily cap hit), so those players are effectively half price on the cap.

so, in summary, the Filppula and Franzen injuries DO give the Wings cap space. Well, provided Fil goes on LTIR.

No, no and no. READ!!

Edited October 30, 2009 by Doggy

[Buppy 1,720]

... as previously stated, cap hit are calculated based on days on the active roster and not games played.

...

For clarification, that should say 'NHL roster'. That includes the active roster, injured reserve, and for the sake of ultra-confusion...some non-roster players as well. (ie, a player claimed on recall waivers).

[Doc Holiday 0]

For the record, Franzen will most likely not be playing in the regular season.

They will try to keep him on LTIR as long as possible so if necessary they can make a trade deadline acquisition that would put them over the cap otherwise, and that way when the playoffs roll around the cap is insignificant and they do not have to worry about removing salary just to keep acquisitions on the roster. This would also not matter if the Wings traded away salary so Franzen could come back ASAP.

Also the amount that can be over the cap hit relates to the amount of days played. His cap hit is the same, but you can only compensate by the cap hit per game times games played (or days on the roster, if that is the correct terminology), if I am not mistaken.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[Doggy 130]

Also the amount that can be over the cap hit relates to the amount of days played. His cap hit is the same, but you can only compensate by the cap hit per game times games played (or days on the roster, if that is the correct terminology), if I am not mistaken.

If I understand you right, you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with the amount of time on LTIR.

[Doc Holiday 0]

If I understand you right, you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with the amount of time on LTIR.

Nevermind, that scenario is impossible to calculate because the amount of time spent on LTIR is unknown.

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

I keep seeing people make posts where they imply that moving a player on LTIR somehow gives a team cap space. This is not the case. It was spoken about in another thread but I thought making a thread solely about this might get more views an maybe clear up this misunderstanding. It's an easy mistake to make.

For those thinking that Lilja, Franzen and Filppula's long-term injuries will help our cap situation -- it won't.

It's clearly stated in the CBA that a player on long-term injured reserve still counts against a team's cap hit.

It appears that the misconception is derived from a certain rule that allows a team the ability to go over the cap a certain amount. Specifically, the player/s required to replace the injured player may allow a team over the cap limit if the replacement salary pushed them over however, the replacement salary/ies cannot equal more than that of the player on LTIR and the team must come back into compliance as soon as the injured player is activated.

Eg. We can call up or trade for $3m worth of players to replace Flip, but we cannot necessarily go over the cap limit by $3m. If Detroit was $3.5m under the cap ceiling, they wouldn't be allowed to go over at all because Flip's salary is worth only $3m. Cap relief is only granted if replacing a players salary pushes a team over the cap ceiling.

Trading for a player to replace Flip or Franzen would not be fruitful because they will return this season, thus Ken Holland would see severe problems complying to the cap when they're healthy. So really, calling players up from GR is the only sensible course of action in the current cap state.

With regards to Lilja, chances are he will not return this season. If that is the case, a trade can be made to replace his $1.25m salary. However, as it stands (the pro-rated picture changes every day) with our current space of almost $3m, it's most likely that we would not be granted cap relief for Andreas Lilja's replacement as it wouldn't push us over the cap ceiling.

The way around this, is for Kenny to make multiple trades, preferrably close to the deadline. One (or more) that pushes us to the limit, followed by one where he requires the NHL's permission to exceed the limit due to Lilja's LTIR status. This of course, is only if Lilja cannot return.

So, in a nutshell -- these injuries are really not much help to our cap situation.

For more info NHLSCAP.com is an excellent source and articulates this much better than I. I hope it makes sense and I didn't come across and pompous or nothing.

doggy great post my friend. im glad you explained it in a civil manner unlike some that will post just to say how stupid people are on here and talk down to everyone....

and you know who you are...i see it time and time again..

i just wonder if we will ever see lija back in a winged wheel again.

[Doggy 130]

Nevermind, that scenario is impossible to calculate because the amount of time spent on LTIR is unknown.

From the CBA:

The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or Players that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the aggregate exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing;

Also from the CBA:

General Illustration:

A Player with a Player Salary of $1.5 million becomes unfit to play for more than 24 calendar days and 10 NHL Regular Season games. At the time the Player becomes unfit to play, his Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $39.5 million, and the Upper Limit in that League Year is $40 million. The Club may replace the unfit-to-play Player with another Player or Players with an aggregate Player Salary and Bonuses of up to $1.5 million. The first $500,000 of such replacement Player Salary and Bonuses shall count toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary, bringing the Averaged Club Salary to the Upper Limit. The

Club may then exceed the Upper Limit by up to another $1 million as a result of the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses. However, if the unfit-to-play Player once again becomes fit to play, and the Club has not otherwise created any Payroll Room during the interim period, then the Player shall not be permitted to rejoin the Club until such time as the Club reduces its Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper Limit.

[Doc Holiday 0]

From the CBA:

Also from the CBA:

I am agreeing with you broski.

[stevkrause 1,247]

we're all arguing symantics and splitting hairs and basically saying the same thing... why complicate it more than needed? do you technically get more cap space - no. does it basically work like you do with LTIR's - yes.

[Doggy 130]

we're all arguing symantics and splitting hairs and basically saying the same thing... why complicate it more than needed? do you technically get more cap space - no. does it basically work like you do with LTIR's - yes.

I've explained why it isn't splitting hairs. It's no-one elses fault if you fail to read or understand it properly.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ok, to shorten this down to a couple paragraphs:

The Wings spend to the cap. So say they started the season with a 22-man roster and $10,000 in cap space, and a player with a salary of $1.25m was injured. The Wings could then replace that player with up to two players, given the 23-man limit, and up to $1.24m in cap hit. Why $1.24m? Because before any LTIR cap relief is allowed the team's remaining cap hit is used.

Given the Wings' number of injuries to this point, it would be shocking to say that they have NOT hit the cap and are riding entirely on LTIR relief.

But another example? For example, Chicago currently is currently well over the cap. They will have to clear up over $3.4m to bring Hossa back onto the roster once he is in playing condition. They would also have to waive/demote/trade at least one forward. Realistically, they can solve two problems in one by ridding themselves of Cristobal Huet by this point, but you understand the example. Hossa makes more than $5m, but because Chicago was almost $2m under the cap the first $2m of his salary ate that up.

[Doggy 130]

Ok, to shorten this down to a couple paragraphs:

The Wings spend to the cap. So say they started the season with a 22-man roster and $10,000 in cap space, and a player with a salary of $1.25m was injured. The Wings could then replace that player with up to two players, given the 23-man limit, and up to $1.24m in cap hit. Why $1.24m? Because before any LTIR cap relief is allowed the team's remaining cap hit is used.

Given the Wings' number of injuries to this point, it would be shocking to say that they have NOT hit the cap and are riding entirely on LTIR relief.

But another example? For example, Chicago currently is currently well over the cap. They will have to clear up over $3.4m to bring Hossa back onto the roster once he is in playing condition. They would also have to waive/demote/trade at least one forward. Realistically, they can solve two problems in one by ridding themselves of Cristobal Huet by this point, but you understand the example. Hossa makes more than $5m, but because Chicago was almost $2m under the cap the first $2m of his salary ate that up.

The numbers in your first example are wrong. Also, you're wrong in that they can spend $1.24m. It's $1.25. They cannot spend more than the aggregate of the contract of the player being replaced.

With regards to the other example, the numbers are wrong again.

Just leave it with the NHL's example where it makes sense and the numbers are correct. You're confusing everyone more.

[eva unit zero 271]

The numbers in your first example are wrong. Also, you're wrong in that they can spend $1.24m. It's $1.25. They cannot spend more than the aggregate of the contract of the player being replaced.

With regards to the other example, the numbers are wrong again.

Just leave it with the NHL's example where it makes sense and the numbers are correct. You're confusing everyone more.

The numbers in my first example are wrong, but because it should be $1.15, not $1.24. As I stated, Chicago can not spend up to Hossa's entire salary over the cap, as they have almost $2m open without considering his salary. Read provision 50.10 of the CBA.

[Doggy 130]

The numbers in my first example are wrong, but because it should be $1.15, not $1.24. As I stated, Chicago can not spend up to Hossa's entire salary over the cap, as they have almost $2m open without considering his salary. Read provision 50.10 of the CBA.

Lol. You're telling me to read it yeah?

Okay. You're correct you were wrong. But incorrect about why. I'll say it one more time. You can spend no more than the value of the unfit-to-play player's SPC. That is, $1.25m. This is regardless of where you are in relation to the cap ceiling. What you MEAN to say, is that in you example you can only go over it by $1.24m. I have NO idea where $1.15 comes from.

Just give up.

[Buppy 1,720]

Lol. You're telling me to read it yeah?

Okay. You're correct you were wrong. But incorrect about why. I'll say it one more time. You can spend no more than the value of the unfit-to-play player's SPC. That is, $1.25m. This is regardless of where you are in relation to the cap ceiling. What you MEAN to say, is that in you example you can only go over it by $1.24m. I have NO idea where $1.15 comes from.

Just give up.

And for the sake of making it even more confusing, they could still go over the cap by $1.25m, by adding another $10,000 in salary somewhere else. Say, demoting a player then adding another player that makes 10k more. But they couldn't add a single player that made $1.26m.

[Doggy 130]

And for the sake of making it even more confusing, they could still go over the cap by $1.25m, by adding another $10,000 in salary somewhere else. Say, demoting a player then adding another player that makes 10k more. But they couldn't add a single player that made $1.26m.

Despite the fact you have made it more confusing, you are correct.

I'm just thankful eva has given up on giving lessons about something he doesn't understand.

[Wombat 26]

Doggy, thanks for posting this and trying admirably to sift through the misinformation posted in this thread. I have a general question for everyone regarding the "example" scenario in the CBA (posted earlier by Doggy)

General Illustration:

A Player with a Player Salary of $1.5 million becomes unfit to play for more than 24 calendar days and 10 NHL Regular Season games. At the time the Player becomes unfit to play, his Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $39.5 million, and the Upper Limit in that League Year is $40 million. The Club may replace the unfit-to-play Player with another Player or Players with an aggregate Player Salary and Bonuses of up to $1.5 million. The first $500,000 of such replacement Player Salary and Bonuses shall count toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary, bringing the Averaged Club Salary to the Upper Limit. The

Club may then exceed the Upper Limit by up to another $1 million as a result of the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses. However, if the unfit-to-play Player once again becomes fit to play, and the Club has not otherwise created any Payroll Room during the interim period, then the Player shall not be permitted to rejoin the Club until such time as the Club reduces its Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper Limit.

I bolded the last sentence in the example. Here is what I am wondering... let's say the Wings make a trade for a player that makes less than Franzen (let's call him the Replacement Player). It seems like the CBA is saying that Franzen cannot be activated from the LTIR until the Wings are cap compliant (no other punishment for Franzen being "healthy" and being over the cap with him + his replacement player). So couldn't the Wings replace Franzen with a trade, and simply keep him inactive on the LTIR until the playoffs start?

Hopefully I didn't confuse the point too much, but it reads to me that the NHL punishment for a team being over the cap when a long term injury ends is to keep the guy on LTIR, and thus ineligible to play. Players on LTIR can practice. Franzen probably won't be in game condition until mid-March at the earliest (4 months is VERY optimistic). So, why not replace him with a quality player via trade, and keep Franzen on LTIR until the playoffs. Then, the cap doesn't matter, so he can be activated and the Wings can play everyone regardless of contract value.

Sure, it means Franzen doesn't get any warmup regular season games to judge how he is. But really, he's not going to be himself until next year at least with this knee injury (he can be in playing condition earlier, but won't be back to full form until next season). Perhaps he can help the Wings as a 3rd/4th liner this playoff season, and keeping him hidden on LTIR allows the Wings to add another bona fide 2nd liner to the fold.

Again, apologies if I'm not clear in my question.

[Doggy 130]

Doggy, thanks for posting this and trying admirably to sift through the misinformation posted in this thread. I have a general question for everyone regarding the "example" scenario in the CBA (posted earlier by Doggy)

I bolded the last sentence in the example. Here is what I am wondering... let's say the Wings make a trade for a player that makes less than Franzen (let's call him the Replacement Player). It seems like the CBA is saying that Franzen cannot be activated from the LTIR until the Wings are cap compliant (no other punishment for Franzen being "healthy" and being over the cap with him + his replacement player). So couldn't the Wings replace Franzen with a trade, and simply keep him inactive on the LTIR until the playoffs start?

Hopefully I didn't confuse the point too much, but it reads to me that the NHL punishment for a team being over the cap when a long term injury ends is to keep the guy on LTIR, and thus ineligible to play. Players on LTIR can practice. Franzen probably won't be in game condition until mid-March at the earliest (4 months is VERY optimistic). So, why not replace him with a quality player via trade, and keep Franzen on LTIR until the playoffs. Then, the cap doesn't matter, so he can be activated and the Wings can play everyone regardless of contract value.

Sure, it means Franzen doesn't get any warmup regular season games to judge how he is. But really, he's not going to be himself until next year at least with this knee injury (he can be in playing condition earlier, but won't be back to full form until next season). Perhaps he can help the Wings as a 3rd/4th liner this playoff season, and keeping him hidden on LTIR allows the Wings to add another bona fide 2nd liner to the fold.

Again, apologies if I'm not clear in my question.

No worries Wombat. Your question is very clear.

I've not read nor heard of any specified rule that disallows what you're suggesting. However, if the commissioner has reason to believe that Franzen is healthy enough to be activated before the conclusion of the regular season, and medically proves it, it will be considered a form of circumvention and the club would be penalised accordingly.

Penalties could include any or all of:

- Fines between $1-5m

- Forfeiture of draft picks

- Forfeiture of games affected by the circumvention

- Suspension of club employees involved

- Any SPC's involved to be voided, maybe even more;

It seems very risky if Franzen is in fact healthy well before the playoffs begin.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

So couldn't the Wings replace Franzen with a trade, and simply keep him inactive on the LTIR until the playoffs start?

It's an injury.

LTIR isn't a category you can just put someone in, or just leave in.

Yes, you could get the team doctor to continue to say he's unfit to play (team doc, the player, and team need to sign off), but I doubt Franzen will continue to feel that way.

I'd also guess that the NHL would look very closely at this situation after/during the player acquisition.

There's no specific wording against your example, but I'm sure it would easily fall under this:

(f) The Commissioner may take whatever steps he deems necessary to

investigate the circumstances under which a Player is: (i) placed, or remains, on the

Injured Reserve List, or (ii) designated Injured Non-Roster. If the Commissioner has

reason to believe that the Injured Reserve List or Injured Non-Roster status has not been

utilized properly by the involved Club or otherwise Circumvents any provision of this

Agreement, or if he determines that the Club has used the Injured Reserve and/or Non-

Roster designations to evade the Active Roster limit, he may take such disciplinary action

against the Club as he deems appropriate.

Edited November 1, 2009 by CaliWingsNut

[Wombat 26]

With more injury/cap space talk happening with Williams going down, I thought it would be good to bump this thread. Thanks doggy and CaliWingsNut for answering my question. I think the issue though is the provision in the LTIR clause that states:

"However, if the unfit-to-play Player once again becomes fit to play, and the Club has not otherwise created any Payroll Room during the interim period, then the Player shall not be permitted to rejoin the Club until such time as the Club reduces its Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper Limit."

You guys are right that should the Commish think this scenario is a de facto circumvention of the salary cap, he could punish the Wings. I had not read that part before, so thanks for posting that. But the clause does essentially state that if a guy gets healthy, but you don't have cap space for him, he stays on the LTIR until there is cap space, regardless of his health.

Maybe someone should call into Bettman's radio show and find out what he thinks of this scenario!