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10/23 GDT: Ducks 4 at Red Wings 5


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#601 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:03 PM

I'm going to say it again: When you give someone who's in the top 20 goal scorers all-time playing the bulk of his career in Dead Puck a breakaway and that much space to pick his shot, you can't fault the goalie.. I don't care if it goes 5 hole, 8 hole, 8 ball, or straight through the goalie like that old Nintendo soccer game.

Kronwall was racing back keeping Selanne to the outside. It wasn't a breakaway. And he didn't have a lot of time to pick his shot. He got off a quick one.


Weak goal, but not the end of the world.

#602 Nightfall

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:03 PM

In other news: great scorers never have flukey, weak goals. Ever.

Good to know.

Also, he didn't have a breakaway, and it was on a weak angle.

Your reading comprehension sucks. Please re-read and try again. :D
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#603 Datsyerberger

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:04 PM

In other news: great scorers never have flukey, weak goals. Ever.

Good to know.


Picking a spot that well is neither a fluky nor weak goal. The goalie can't commit early because a guy with that much skill and that much space is going to burn the hell out of him if he commits. He presents the smallest possible target (5 hole in this case) and hopes he can close up in time or it's just too small a target. When it's the case of a guy with a laser of a shot like Selanne... well, you don't cough up the puck at the blueline like that to begin with.
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#604 Howard He Do It?!

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:05 PM

Picking a spot that well is neither a fluky nor weak goal. The goalie can't commit early because a guy with that much skill and that much space is going to burn the hell out of him if he commits. He presents the smallest possible target (5 hole in this case) and hopes he can close up in time or it's just too small a target. When it's the case of a guy with a laser of a shot like Selanne... well, you don't cough up the puck at the blueline like that to begin with.

Plus Selanne didn't stop moving his skates like most players do before they take their shot. Either Ken or Mickey brought this up.

Edited by Howard He Do It?!, 23 October 2010 - 09:06 PM.

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#605 Carman

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:06 PM

How anyone thinks the Selanne goal was weak, I have no clue.

Give Selanne that chance on any goalie he'll score more often than not. He's a top 20 goal scorer, and we gave him a clear shot coming in off the wing...

Edited by Carman, 23 October 2010 - 09:07 PM.


#606 titanium2

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:07 PM

Can I also state that Franzen has a hot stick right now?

He shoots all the time and he scores. All. The. Time. Amazing.


I'm hoping the BFF line can be as good as the Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi line was in their day.

#607 Datsyerberger

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:07 PM

Kronwall was racing back keeping Selanne to the outside. It wasn't a breakaway. And he didn't have a lot of time to pick his shot. He got off a quick one.


It was a breakaway by virtue of positioning. Kronwall made it back enough to cut off a potential pass through the slot as assignment would dictate, but Selanne still had more than ample room (especially considering Kronwall isn't the strongest front-of-net d-man if Selanne decides to cut inside).

Edited by Datsyerberger, 23 October 2010 - 09:08 PM.

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#608 Doc Holliday

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:08 PM

Your reading comprehension sucks. Please re-read and try again. :D


I would suggest you heed your own advice. He is using the legacy of the shooter as a reason not to fault the goaltender.

Picking a spot that well is neither a fluky nor weak goal. The goalie can't commit early because a guy with that much skill and that much space is going to burn the hell out of him if he commits. He presents the smallest possible target (5 hole in this case) and hopes he can close up in time or it's just too small a target. When it's the case of a guy with a laser of a shot like Selanne... well, you don't cough up the puck at the blueline like that to begin with.


1. The shot wasn't that fast.
2. The angle was terrible.
3. Howard didn't even get into butterfly to make the save.
4. Selanne didn't have much space at all. Kronwall pushed him wide as far as he could and there wasn't much else for Selanne to do but shoot.

If Howard is in butterfly position, it isn't weak because Howard did all he could and put himself in the best possible position to make the save. But he didn't. He put one pad down and hesitated to put the other down, which created the space for the goal.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 23 October 2010 - 09:09 PM.

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#609 Gerryjo1984

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:08 PM

Great result. Just watched my first Red Wings game in ages. Can't actually remember when I last watched a full game.
Anyway, great win but not impressed by the performance at all. Don't feel comfortable with Howard in the net, he let in a few soft goals tonight and even in a few instances when he made saves he was still making it look very tough and at times was maybe a little fortunate. Although it has to said the guys in front of him weren't exactly making it easy for him either. Defensively I thought we were very poor.
Offensively we looked very good when we went behind. When we were 1-0 up we seemed to stop and settle for it. The goal right at the end of the first period seemed to knock the stuffing out of us and we never really recovered until half way through the second. When it went 3-1 Ducks we went for it a lot more and the Ducks couldnt handle us. We managed to get the 2 goals back and could and should have scored a few more too. However once we tied the game we stopped again and done nothing until the Ducks went ahead again in the 3rd. Yet again, behind and chasing the game we started attacking more and once again the Ducks could do nothing to stop us and before too long we were level again. Yet again though we stopped and never really went for it until the last few minutes when once again we looked unstoppable and got our reward yet again.
I'm pretty sure there is a message in there somewhere for Babcock. When we went on the attack we looked almost impossible to stop but only done this when we absolutely had to. I'd love to see the Wings attack teams a bit more as we have some superb players. The stickwork on that Datsyuk goal was superb. I know obviously you can't afford to go gung-ho in the NHL or teams will tear you apart but I'd like to see us outshooting teams a lot more. Calgary and Colorado have both came into Detroit and outshot us comfortably. I know we had a lot more shots than the Ducks tonight but it just felt like we only really played when we were behind and had to go for it.
Hopefully we will improve for the Coyotes game on Thursday and pick up another 2 points. I see as it stands right now we are number 1 in the West, lets keep it that way.

LGW!

Gerry

#610 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:11 PM

It was a breakaway by virtue of positioning. Kronwall made it back enough to cut off a potential pass through the slot as assignment would dictate, but Selanne still had more than ample room (especially considering Kronwall isn't the strongest front-of-net d-man if Selanne decides to cut inside).

So you're reinventing what constitutes a breakaway?

Kronwall was right there keeping Selanne to the outside. When there's a defenseman right there in the area forcing the player to stay wide, that's not a breakaway.

jeez, is it really necessary to explain away every goal Howard lets in? I thought overall he played well tonight, but he wasn't butterfly on that goal, he was somewhere in between and got caught.

#611 Nightfall

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:12 PM

I would suggest you heed your own advice. He is using the legacy of the shooter as a reason not to fault the goaltender.

No, your reading comprehension blows a big one. He says anytime your defense hangs your goalie out to dry to an elite player, you can't fault the goalie. Not that elite players don't score bad goals. Big difference there. I do agree with his line of reasoning. Hell, its what my defense tells me when they let the top scorers in they league get prime scoring chances on me. :D
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#612 Datsyerberger

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:13 PM

I would suggest you heed your own advice. He is using the legacy of the shooter as a reason not to fault the goaltender.



1. The shot wasn't that fast. The speed with which he gets the shot off and his ability to do so at full stride is a factor.
2. The angle was terrible. He had ample room to cut inside or attempt to pick a corner.
3. Howard didn't even get into butterfly to make the save. If you commit that early to a goalscorer of Selanne's caliber you get burned.
4. Selanne didn't have much space at all. Kronwall pushed him wide as far as he could and there wasn't much else for Selanne to do but shoot. Kronwall was well behind the play and would've likely had to either haul Selanne down or hook him if Selanne cut inside, and as the d-man on a break like that his first priority is to cut off a pass through the slot.

If Howard is in butterfly position, it isn't weak because Howard did all he could and put himself in the best possible position to make the save. But he didn't. He put one pad down and hesitated to put the other down, which created the space for the goal.


If Howard is in butterfly that early, he gets burned bad and that play turns into a highlight reel goal (or, more optimistically, a highlight reel save).

Edited by Datsyerberger, 23 October 2010 - 09:14 PM.

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#613 Konnan511

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:13 PM

Ewwww:
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#614 Doc Holliday

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:15 PM

No, your reading comprehension blows a big one. He says anytime your defense hangs your goalie out to dry to an elite player, you can't fault the goalie.


Kronwall was in position. He was not able to establish significant body position to prevent a shot because Cleary gave it away right in Kronwall's face.

Cleary and Howard had gaffes on that play. You don't forgive one because of the faults of another.

Not that elite players don't score bad goals. Big difference there. I do agree with his line of reasoning. Hell, its what my defense tells me when they let the top scorers in they league get prime scoring chances on me. :D


I do not agree with his line of reasoning. If you put a different player and he replicates that shot (and lets be honest, it wasn't anything special), the line of reasoning dictates that Howard is suddenly at fault for that goal.

If Howard is in butterfly that early, he gets burned bad and that play turns into a highlight reel goal (or, more optimistically, a highlight reel save).


I never said for Howard to get into butterfly before the shot. I said he needed to get into butterfly to stop the shot. He attempted some obscure form of butterfly when he reacted and it cost him. If his reaction is what it is 98% of the time, that isn't a goal. Period.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 23 October 2010 - 09:16 PM.

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#615 Datsyerberger

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:17 PM

I do not agree with his line of reasoning. If you put a different player and he replicates that shot (and lets be honest, it wasn't anything special), the line of reasoning dictates that Howard is suddenly at fault for that goal.


A different (and implicitly lesser) player is both less likely to generate that scoring chance and to release a shot as quickly and accurately as Selanne.

The shot doesn't have to be a hard shot in that instance. Accuracy and release are much more important, and Selanne has a deceptively quick release.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 23 October 2010 - 09:18 PM.

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#616 Doc Holliday

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:18 PM

A different (and implicitly lesser) player is both less likely to generate that scoring chance and to release a shot as quickly and accurately as Selanne.


Low standards for quick an accurate? :hehe:

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#617 Konnan511

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:18 PM

Cleary: "I swear to moses I did not touch the goal, if I don't move they can't call anything"
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#618 Datsyerberger

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:18 PM

Low standards for quick an accurate? :hehe:


Do you understand the difference between a quick shot and a fast shot?
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#619 Howard He Do It?!

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:19 PM

Low standards for quick an accurate? :hehe:

How was it not both quick and accurate?

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#620 Carman

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:19 PM

Kronwall was in position. He was not able to establish significant body position to prevent a shot because Cleary gave it away right in Kronwall's face.

Cleary and Howard had gaffes on that play. You don't forgive one because of the faults of another.



I do not agree with his line of reasoning. If you put a different player and he replicates that shot (and lets be honest, it wasn't anything special), the line of reasoning dictates that Howard is suddenly at fault for that goal.


Kronwall did nothing wrong I agree.

But I really disagree on whether or not Selanne's shot was "special", it was pretty damn impressive coming in with that much speed and shoot the puck mid-stride like that without telegraphing anything. It's not like came in with a huge Al MaCinnis slap shot and Howard just stood there.

If you don't think Selanne did that on purpose and doesn't know how to score in that situation and it was a fluke goal like Flippula's the other day go ahead...





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