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#61 Doc Holliday

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.


Gretzky and Lemieux are two of the top 3 players of all time. Yzerman isn't even top 10. There is a reason for that. He never had the offensive skills in any point in his career that Lemieux and Gretz had in their primes. That isn't even arguable.

Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.

Lidstrom was a -2 and won the Norris. Next.

Also, if you don't want a snarky answer, don't act like just by watching Crosby a few times you know for a fact how often he plays in a certain situation. The NHL website has all that information right there.

Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.


Everyone knows that the Selke is a primarily reputation based award. The fact that Datsyuk has won it over players (Zetterberg included) who over the past few years have had greater defensive responsibilities (PK time is a huge reason why him winning 3 in a row is suspect to me) and defensive performance makes me wonder why people decide to use it as an indicator of who is truly the best defensive forward.

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#62 Frank the Tank

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

Wait did I just read that Yzerman is as good as Gretzky/Lemieux?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

--deep breath--

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

#63 Carman

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:32 AM

All I came in to say is I'm pleasantly surprised that people actually seem to respect Crosby's game now. Figured I was the only one. The guy is just an absolutely treat to watch and I'm glad he's back healthy. I'd love to see a rematch Finals if the Wings can get it together.

#64 xtrememachine1

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

Gretzky and Lemieux are two of the top 3 players of all time. Yzerman isn't even top 10. There is a reason for that. He never had the offensive skills in any point in his career that Lemieux and Gretz had in their primes.


Why do you think that? Because of their point totals? Around and around we go.

Also, if you don't want a snarky answer, don't act like just by watching Crosby a few times you know for a fact how often he plays in a certain situation. The NHL website has all that information right there.


Yeah, I just live in Pittsburgh and (unfortunately) see the Pens play all the time. What would I know about how and when Crosby plays? :rolleyes: Stats are great and are helpful to prove points, but they are misleading here. Crosby usually plays (or played, not so much now) the final 15-20 seconds of a PK, so he's out there when his team gets back to full strength. They're not putting him out there to "kill penalties". When the other team has their best PP unit out there, Cooke, Adams and their Selke candidate, Staal, play most of the two minutes.


Everyone knows that the Selke is a primarily reputation based award. The fact that Datsyuk has won it over players (Zetterberg included) who over the past few years have had greater defensive responsibilities (PK time is a huge reason why him winning 3 in a row is suspect to me) and defensive performance makes me wonder why people decide to use it as an indicator of who is truly the best defensive forward.


Yes, he has a good reputation because he's always one of the league leaders in steals and is out there for all the big PKs and at the end of the game. Datsyuk has earned that reputation of being a good defensive forward by playing really well defensively. He doesn't play much on the PK during the game because we have an entire lineup full of defensive minded forwards.

#65 Dimaline312000

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:28 AM

I can't vote on this but I'll speak my mind. Crosby is an AMAZING player there's no dout about that. The way I mesaure a player in this type of question is by counting Stanley Cups, to me the Cup is the Ultimate. A player can score 100 Goals in a season and even amass 150 to 200 Points per season for their entire career and yes the will break records and be a part of Hockey History but in the end what's this game all about?.... The Stanley Cup. Crosby has one already and according to so many people I hear about or talk to believe he'll win numerous Cups in his career and that may be but as of right now dispite Crosby's outstanding come back and all his goals and points in my opnion Lidstrom is the best player in the NHL right now. I'm sure people will argue with my way of thinking but that's just how I am, in the end, at the end of a players NHL Career after all their Millions $$$$ are made and personal records achieved and broken the Stanley Cup is all that matters and how many Rings you've won.

#66 toby91_ca

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

I can't vote on this but I'll speak my mind. Crosby is an AMAZING player there's no dout about that. The way I mesaure a player in this type of question is by counting Stanley Cups, to me the Cup is the Ultimate. A player can score 100 Goals in a season and even amass 150 to 200 Points per season for their entire career and yes the will break records and be a part of Hockey History but in the end what's this game all about?.... The Stanley Cup. Crosby has one already and according to so many people I hear about or talk to believe he'll win numerous Cups in his career and that may be but as of right now dispite Crosby's outstanding come back and all his goals and points in my opnion Lidstrom is the best player in the NHL right now. I'm sure people will argue with my way of thinking but that's just how I am, in the end, at the end of a players NHL Career after all their Millions $$$$ are made and personal records achieved and broken the Stanley Cup is all that matters and how many Rings you've won.

I'm sorry, but your logic is severely flawed. First of all, Lidstrom is no longer close to being the best player in the, that is a simple fact. You are putting him there just because teams he played on in the last 15 years happened to win more cups than other players in the league? How messed up is that.

All else being equal, you can use Cups as a measuring stick, but when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter how good you are as a player or as a teammate, if you don't have other good players, a good team, to play with, you have no chance at the cup. This isn't the NBA where individuals have such an impact on the outcome.

Is Henri Richard the best NHL player of all time?

#67 Doc Holliday

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:35 AM

Why do you think that? Because of their point totals? Around and around we go.

Because it is an undisputed fact (except around here I suppose) that Yzerman was never at the same level as Howe, Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux. Only a Wings fan will imply that Yzerman was at their level.



Yeah, I just live in Pittsburgh and (unfortunately) see the Pens play all the time. What would I know about how and when Crosby plays? :rolleyes: Stats are great and are helpful to prove points, but they are misleading here. Crosby usually plays (or played, not so much now) the final 15-20 seconds of a PK, so he's out there when his team gets back to full strength. They're not putting him out there to "kill penalties". When the other team has their best PP unit out there, Cooke, Adams and their Selke candidate, Staal, play most of the two minutes.


Yet strangely enough played more PK time than Datsyuk. What did that say about Datsyuk's role on the PK that year?

I'm not saying Crosby is up to Datsyuk's level defensively. I'm saying that the gap between their defensive games isn't as wide as the gap between their offensive games. And the excuse "because he dedicates time to defense" is ridiculous because as centers they BOTH have to play a full 200 foot game for their team to be successful. We aren't talking about Datsyuk vs. Ovechkin here.

Yes, he has a good reputation because he's always one of the league leaders in steals and is out there for all the big PKs and at the end of the game. Datsyuk has earned that reputation of being a good defensive forward by playing really well defensively. He doesn't play much on the PK during the game because we have an entire lineup full of defensive minded forwards.


But if Datsyuk's defensive game is so amazing in comparison to his peers, he should be out there. Especially when Detroit's PK has been terribad for the last few years.

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#68 Dimaline312000

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:29 PM

I'm sorry, but your logic is severely flawed. First of all, Lidstrom is no longer close to being the best player in the, that is a simple fact. You are putting him there just because teams he played on in the last 15 years happened to win more cups than other players in the league? How messed up is that.

All else being equal, you can use Cups as a measuring stick, but when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter how good you are as a player or as a teammate, if you don't have other good players, a good team, to play with, you have no chance at the cup. This isn't the NBA where individuals have such an impact on the outcome.

Is Henri Richard the best NHL player of all time?



My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!

#69 Frank the Tank

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:32 PM

My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!


you seriously sound like a child. You didn't even attempt to defend your irrationality. THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!! THAT'S MY LOGIC AND I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY!!!!!




#70 toby91_ca

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:40 PM

My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!

Rather than argue against your "logic", can you answer the question I asked? Do you think henri Richard is the best player of all time?

#71 Carman

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

That Malkin guy is pretty good if he decides he wants to play.

#72 chuklz

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:31 PM

You couldnt stop Gretzky.

Any one of our defensive forwards can shut him down all things being equal. The question is- do you have the lines to win the battle of attrition.

#73 Dabura

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:04 AM

I have not accepted Jesus Crosby as my Lord and Savior.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#74 edicius

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:21 AM

You couldnt stop Gretzky.

Any one of our defensive forwards can shut him down all things being equal. The question is- do you have the lines to win the battle of attrition.


This is a fair point. Zetterberg is especially adept at shutting down Crosby. That doesn't mean that Zetterberg is better than Crosby, of course. But it certainly means that Crosby is no Gretzky, not even close.

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#75 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:45 AM

if you go on tsn.ca and look in Crosby's player profile, his picture screams child molestor...but he has 21 points in 13 games and is +15 so yes he's quite the little player. now if we could only wipe that smug look off his face and the dirt stache off his pictures...

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#76 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:47 AM

Zetterberg is especially adept at shutting down Crosby.


Well I think it's fair to say that Zetterberg WAS adept at shutting down Crosby. The last time we saw him do that was in like 2010? Things change and while I still proclaim Z as my favorite player I feel like I need to see him shut down Sid again before I can really believe he can still do it.

#77 Dimaline312000

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:41 PM

Rather than argue against your "logic", can you answer the question I asked? Do you think henri Richard is the best player of all time?



The question HERE is is Crosby the best player in the NHL not is he the best of all time. So to ANSWER YOUR QUESTION no I don't think Henri Richard is the best player of all time. The way I define the best player in the NHL is being a team guy. This is a team sport so despite all of Crosby's accomplishments he's only led his team to 1 Stanley Cup so far. In the end the Cup is the only thing that matters, not your money made or all the goals you score or records broke. When a player looks back on their career their going to see how many Stanley Cups they won or didn't win. A player can win numerouse individual player awards in their career but I bet if you ask 90% of the now retired players that never won a single Stanley Cup if they would give back all of their individual player trophies they've won througout their entire career for 1 Stanley Cup I bet they'd say yes that they would give all that up for 1 Cup. That's how I think. I'm not denying that Crosby is one of the greats right now and I'm not even saying he couldn't be the best player in the NHL but I SEE The Stanley Cup as being the ultimate prize and the ultimate goal in a players Career. Yes it matters the kind of team you're on to win a Cup or multiple Cups but this is a team sport and no one player can do it all.... Not even everyone's favorite little boy Mr. Face Of The NHL Sidney Crosby. Does he have the ability to be the greatest player of all-time in the NHL yes I'm sure he does, he's a special player with a ton of talent and skill but there is a long list of players that have already proven they are or were one of the best in the NHL. Crosby can most likely lead the Pens to multiple Cups in his career and be defined as one of if not the greatest players in the NHL of All-Time or not, right now I say he isn't. Lidstrom has 4 Stanley Cups and yes has been on a great team to win those 4 Stanley Cups but as I said this is a team sport and no one player can do it all and win the Cup for his team. What I'm saying is I've seen a lot of great players come and go in this league that have and haven't won Stanley Cups but have broke scoring records and won player numerous player awards and such that in my mind Crosby isn't there yet. Right now in my mind Pavel Datsyuk is a greater player in the NHL than Crosby becasue he's got 2 Cups. So the way I see a great player is can he be a part of a team and help lead his team to One or More Stanley Cups and that the Cup is the Ultimate in Hockey. That's just how I see this topic. I don't appreciate being told my way of thinking is flawed. I'm fine with someone not agreeing with me or having a difference in opnion and discuss it intlectually but how a person thinks is just how they think wether it's right or wrong. Now I'm done with this topic if you want to discuss it further you can message me or whatever but now that I've spoke my mind I'm leaving this alone so I won't be checking this one again.

#78 Doc Holliday

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

Well I think it's fair to say that Zetterberg WAS adept at shutting down Crosby. The last time we saw him do that was in like 2010? Things change and while I still proclaim Z as my favorite player I feel like I need to see him shut down Sid again before I can really believe he can still do it.


Not Zetterberg's fault Crosby has been injured since.

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#79 AceInTheSleeve

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Well I think it's fair to say that Zetterberg WAS adept at shutting down Crosby. The last time we saw him do that was in like 2010? Things change and while I still proclaim Z as my favorite player I feel like I need to see him shut down Sid again before I can really believe he can still do it.


Every time we played s***sburgh in the playoffs Z OWNED that sissy boy. Z has had a slow start this season but he has been a monster with all these injuries. One of the few who has stepped up to the plate with key players out. I think if we meet the pens this year Z will show again how effectively he can shut down the so called 'best player in the league'

Besides, the best player in the league isn't Crosby, it's Lidstrom and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that yet.

#80 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:43 PM

Stop feeding the Crosby thread, I wanna puke every time I see it. :blink:

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