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So....did Cleary just take Tatar's spot?


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#201 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

When Babs says veterans get the nod over rookies, I bet he's referring to Bertuzzi and Sammuelson moreso than Cleary. I wonder if this is more about giving Bertuzzi and Sammuelson a chance to actually play (and justify the contracts that they did not earn last year due to injury), now that they're physically able to be placed in the lineup.  I think its realistic and fair for Babs and Holland to say "Bert and Sammy get a crack at establishing themselves because they weren't able to last year, but if there's a slip-up or Babs doesn't think he's getting the production that he expects, than Tatar will be waiting to take that spot"

I think that's exactly what Babcock meant by tie goes to the veteran.

It's not like he's locked into these lineups for 82 games. As frustrated as people are with him playing Cleary, remember what he did with Ian White. He's not afraid to sit vets if they're not performing in a way he thinks they should be.

#202 Crymson

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:18 PM

Heard the same thing when Flieschman and Matthias left, heard it countless times.

 

This same argument is had every year when a promising youngster sits the pine to a vet. In fact it happened last summer with these same names.

 

It is like you guys all of the sudden expected this team to change its philosophy because LGW.com wants the team to do something differently.

 

Err... Fleischmann was traded for the league's top scorer, and the Matthias was sent away in a calculated gamble. The latter worked, because Bertuzzi did fairly well while Matthias turned into an average grinder. More, neither Fleischmann nor Matthias had yet played even a single game in the AHL, nor was either one was a blue-chip prospect, and so it's not like they were being considered for NHL duty at that time.

 

As such, I don't see the logic behind you bringing up those two.

 

No, Cleary has some type of blackmail on Babcock. Or at least how he plays Cleary, it would seem that way.

 

He's one of the team's only gritty players, and one of only two who can and will screen the opposing goalie.


I think that's exactly what Babcock meant by tie goes to the veteran.

It's not like he's locked into these lineups for 82 games. As frustrated as people are with him playing Cleary, remember what he did with Ian White. He's not afraid to sit vets if they're not performing in a way he thinks they should be.

 

Given how Babcock used Samuelsson in preseason, and given the latter's performance in those games, I think he's one step away from the doghouse. His right-handed shot is all that's keeping him on the roster, but it seems he's woefully inept even on the power play now.



#203 Opie

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

 

Err... Fleischmann was traded for the league's top scorer, and the Matthias was sent away in a calculated gamble. The latter worked, because Bertuzzi did fairly well while Matthias turned into an average grinder. More, neither Fleischmann nor Matthias had yet played even a single game in the AHL, nor was either one was a blue-chip prospect, and so it's not like they were being considered for NHL duty at that time.

 

 

You failed to mention who Fleishmann was traded for, assuming people would read "Leading Scorer" and forget he was traded for Robert Lang, who this board absolutely trashed and still does.

 

That was my point, not that either of those guys were supposed to be perennial all stars or that they were World beaters, but this board tweaked out, because we were giving up the future for an old player.

 

The reason I brought them up was exactly that, my point also was exactly that. People overreact to keeping Vets in the lineup over relatively unproven youngsters.

 

Tatar played well and I will be honest, he deserves a roster spot over Sammy. But other than going back in time how do you suppose they rectify that?

 

And people keep asking "Does anyone really thing Clearly, Sammy, Bert are better than Tatar and Nyquist", yes, the most important person involved does:

 

Mike Babcock or

 

The wings are handcuffed by the cap, have no trade partners and are stuck in this situation for now.

 

But instead of waiting to see how any of this pans out, if Tatar and Nyquist don't have sophmore slumps, lets overreact before a single game has ever been played.


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#204 Nev

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

Heard the same thing when Flieschman and Matthias left, heard it countless times.

 

This same argument is had every year when a promising youngster sits the pine to a vet. In fact it happened last summer with these same names.

 

The difference is that at this point Tatar and Nyquist are our best forward prospects since probably Hudler and Filpulla in the mid-2000's, and in the long run one or both of them may turn out to be better.  Huds and Flip were also battling to get a spot on a far superior roster than we have now.

 

I don't actually have much against Bert, Cleary, Miller, Eaves, Tootoo, even Sammy.  I do have a problem with all of them together, plus Emmerton as well who is clearly not an NHL player.  One of Miller or Eaves.  One of Bert or Cleary.  Emmerton in the AHL where he belongs.  We've got a collection of bit-part players - every squad has to have them to fill out their roster in the cap world.  Problem is, they're not filling out the roster, they're half the roster, and they're keeping better players out.

 

Bert-Andersson-Cleary may not be the worst line in the NHL but it sure as hell is the slowest.  I fear for Andersson without the dynamism of Nyquist and Brunnner Tatar on his wings.


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#205 Superman54

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

Sammy and Bert in over Tatar.... half of me wants the same opener we saw last year just to show its OK to have young players dressed too


#206 rrasco

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:38 PM

But instead of waiting to see how any of this pans out, if Tatar and Nyquist don't have sophmore slumps, lets overreact before a single game has ever been played.

 

The time for waiting is over.  We've been waiting since last year for at least this specific lineup change to be made.  Still waiting....


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#207 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:08 PM

He's not afraid to sit vets if they're not performing in a way he thinks they should be.

 

I disagree.

 

In my opinion, Cleary was playing like garbage at a time where he was featured on the top 2 lines (albeit while individuals were injured), and Babcock let him rot there. Could have called someone up, but, nahhhhh



#208 Shaman

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

 

Err... Fleischmann was traded for the league's top scorer, and the Matthias was sent away in a calculated gamble. The latter worked, because Bertuzzi did fairly well while Matthias turned into an average grinder. More, neither Fleischmann nor Matthias had yet played even a single game in the AHL, nor was either one was a blue-chip prospect, and so it's not like they were being considered for NHL duty at that time.

 

As such, I don't see the logic behind you bringing up those two.

 

 

He's one of the team's only gritty players, and one of only two who can and will screen the opposing goalie.


 

Given how Babcock used Samuelsson in preseason, and given the latter's performance in those games, I think he's one step away from the doghouse. His right-handed shot is all that's keeping him on the roster, but it seems he's woefully inept even on the power play now.

 

Yeah, when he's not injured, or being rubbed out of the play, he's got a little grit and screens the goalie. That'd be great if the team had a guy like Lidstrom/Rafalski/Shanahan/etc who was able to put it on net. This team has a lot of pass first guys, and since its cleary (a screening player) vs Tatar (a guy who likes to shoot more than anyone else on the team) I'd go with Tatar.


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#209 Echolalia

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:54 PM

 
Yeah, when he's not injured, or being rubbed out of the play, he's got a little grit and screens the goalie. That'd be great if the team had a guy like Lidstrom/Rafalski/Shanahan/etc who was able to put it on net. This team has a lot of pass first guys, and since its cleary (a screening player) vs Tatar (a guy who likes to shoot more than anyone else on the team) I'd go with Tatar.

I don't expect it will ever be Cleary vs Tatar. We probably differ in this view but Cleary can still contribute to this team in a way that makes him a viable top 9 option, so when Tatar does crack the lineup, it won't be to replace Cleary. Bertuzzi and Sammuelson on the other hand, haven't played for over a year (excluding the 8 minutes they were healthy last season). They are likely getting a courtesy shot in the first week or so to earn their contracts, but I expect Tatar will end up replacing one of the two of them in the lineup.

#210 Shaman

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:18 PM

I don't expect it will ever be Cleary vs Tatar. We probably differ in this view but Cleary can still contribute to this team in a way that makes him a viable top 9 option, so when Tatar does crack the lineup, it won't be to replace Cleary. Bertuzzi and Sammuelson on the other hand, haven't played for over a year (excluding the 8 minutes they were healthy last season). They are likely getting a courtesy shot in the first week or so to earn their contracts, but I expect Tatar will end up replacing one of the two of them in the lineup.

If Cleary starts on the third line I would argue then he is in fact occupying a roster spot that Tatar should be in. If Cleary were a fourth liner and shuffled in low scoring affairs to replace Abdelkader on the top line, meh, I could live with it. But if hes on Andersson's wing over Tatar, that's where I start having a huge problem.


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#211 rrasco

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:20 PM

I don't expect it will ever be Cleary vs Tatar. We probably differ in this view but Cleary can still contribute to this team in a way that makes him a viable top 9 option, so when Tatar does crack the lineup, it won't be to replace Cleary. Bertuzzi and Sammuelson on the other hand, haven't played for over a year (excluding the 8 minutes they were healthy last season). They are likely getting a courtesy shot in the first week or so to earn their contracts, but I expect Tatar will end up replacing one of the two of them in the lineup.

 

I agree with you.  I guess the thing that makes it stick for me though, and I'm presuming others as well, is that if they never re-signed Cleary, Tatar wouldn't have been bumped.  No matter how much we all agree Sammy's contract is bad, the direct result of Cleary's contract is Tatar in the press box.


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#212 Crymson

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:37 PM

You failed to mention who Fleishmann was traded for, assuming people would read "Leading Scorer" and forget he was traded for Robert Lang, who this board absolutely trashed and still does.

 

 

 

For that season, Lang was an excellent acquisition. He did well in the regular season and led the team in playoff scoring. He did quite well in 2005-2006 before deciding he didn't really care anymore.

 

Believe it or not, I have neither desire nor need to fool people, nor indeed would the particular gambit you've accused me have had any chance of success. It's known fairly well whom Fleischmann was traded for. Thanks, though; it's always nice to be called dishonest.

 

That was my point, not that either of those guys were supposed to be perennial all stars or that they were World beaters, but this board tweaked out, because we were giving up the future for an old player.

 

I was not around on this forum when Lang was traded for. I was, however, around in 2007, and I can assure you that very few people were unhappy about the Bertuzzi trade and quite a few were happy about it. He had scored 71 points in the season before; though he was a gamble given his back surgery, he had the potential to be a very potent acquisition, and Holland effectively got him for peanuts. Matthias was ranked by RWC---a good judge of such things---as the Wings' 13th-ranked prospect.

 

That said, I agree with the gist of what you're saying: that people should not get so up in arms before the season has even begun.



#213 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

Tatar is benched for Thursday against Phoenix.

 

Played 9 fourth line minutes (lowest on the team) with zero power play time.  Dan Cleary, however, managed to trip himself 4.5 times with nearly 15 minutes of ice time.

 

When asked what Dan Cleary brings to the team, Cleary apologist Helene St. James said

"Helene St. James @HeleneStJames 6h

@Walravenjordan: @HeleneStJames name 1 thing Dan Cleary brings besides being "Good Locker Room Guy"?”/2nd leading playoff scorer, 1st v CHI"

 

A very relevant point as we are still in the playoffs and this is still June.



#214 ShanahanMan

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:57 PM

Tatar is benched for Thursday against Phoenix.
 
Played 9 fourth line minutes (lowest on the team) with zero power play time.  Dan Cleary, however, managed to trip himself 4.5 times with nearly 15 minutes of ice time.
 
When asked what Dan Cleary brings to the team, Cleary apologist Helene St. James said
"Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 6h
@Walravenjordan: @HeleneStJames name 1 thing Dan Cleary brings besides being "Good Locker Room Guy"?/2nd leading playoff scorer, 1st v CHI"
 
A very relevant point as we are still in the playoffs and this is still June.


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#215 rrasco

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

So Tots gets nine minutes in one game on the fourth line and he's back on the bench because he didn't show anything in a game the entire team slept through.  That'll teach him.


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#216 ben_usmc

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:32 PM

Tatar is benched for Thursday against Phoenix.

 

Played 9 fourth line minutes (lowest on the team) with zero power play time.  Dan Cleary, however, managed to trip himself 4.5 times with nearly 15 minutes of ice time.

 

When asked what Dan Cleary brings to the team, Cleary apologist Helene St. James said

"Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 6h

@Walravenjordan: @HeleneStJames name 1 thing Dan Cleary brings besides being "Good Locker Room Guy"?”/2nd leading playoff scorer, 1st v CHI"

 

A very relevant point as we are still in the playoffs and this is still June.

even more relevant if he you know added context.  Cleary 2 goals were literally bounced off of his body by Datsyuk, and 1 was an empty netter, then what 6 secondary assists..... Unless of course points tell the whole story I guess St. James is saying Cleary>Datsyuk, because you know points mean everything.  How about the 40x  Cleary just losses the puck on the boards, or falls and gives the puck up?

 

please someone sign into twitter and call this person a ****


Edited by ben_usmc, 07 October 2013 - 07:33 PM.

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#217 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

So Tots gets nine minutes in one game on the fourth line and he's back on the bench because he didn't show anything in a game the entire team slept through.  That'll teach him.

 

He had to make room for the useless $3 mil/year 4th line plug that contributes more when injured then healthy...



#218 GMRwings1983

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

 

You failed to mention who Fleishmann was traded for, assuming people would read "Leading Scorer" and forget he was traded for Robert Lang, who this board absolutely trashed and still does.

 

 

 

The Red Wings robbed Bobby Lang of an Art Ross trophy that year.  I'll never forgive this organization for that.  


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#219 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:52 PM

On a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being "TRADE ME NOW OR I WILL TAKE A BAT TO CLEARY'S ACLs and MCLs!!!"), how badly do you guys think Tatar and Nyquist want the Wings to trade them somewhere, anywhere?



#220 martinezsvsu

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:01 PM

On a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being "TRADE ME NOW OR I WILL TAKE A BAT TO CLEARY'S ACLs and MCLs!!!"), how badly do you guys think Tatar and Nyquist want the Wings to trade them somewhere, anywhere?

tatar 9

nyquist 2







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