haroldsnepsts

I cleaned up the thread. If you don't want your posts deleted, let's keep it about the signing and not bickering with each other. Enough city and fanbase bashing.

The exact point was that they put up similar production to Franzen and are two actual power forwards. Both Lucic and Simmonds play physical, fight, and score. Franzen floats and scores. He is in no way a power forward. And Simmonds is 23 years old and Lucic is 24 years old, so they're likely not at their full potential. Remind me how was Mule at 23? Exactly. I don't think anyone is saying we don't need the goal scoring he does provide. It's the lack of effort he displays some nights. The babcock quote earlier in the thread sums it up well.

If he's paid to be a power forward, that only bolsters the argument that he's not working hard enough. Lucic is a power forward. Simmonds is developing into a power forward. Franzen is big and can score, but he's not nearly physical enough to be called a power forward.

They don't make almost twice as much as Franzen, their cap hit is just higher. Franzen is signed through 2020 with the last 3 years being 2, 1, then 1 mill to get his hit down. That's about Holland's cap manipulation, not their relative pay this past season. Mule was paid $5.25 mill this year, compared to 6.7 for Dats and $7.4 for Z. Either way I don't think floating is something that should be excused by a player's salary. Teams that win have players who bust their ass to fulfill their role every second of every shift. That sure doesn't sound like Franzen. It's not that I think the Wings should trade him, but I'd love for Babcock to sit him when he's floating out there.

I think we agree mostly on his downsides and size is definitely a factor, but I don't think that's handicapping everything. Martin St. Louis is listed at 5'8" and 176 lbs, which is probably close to Hudler's actual size (he's listed as 5'9 178 lbs). But Marty has speed. To me it's the size and lack of speed that's the killer with him. Because he usually does work hard in the corner, but he's so little and can't get away fast enough that even if he does pull a nice move to get the puck out of the corner, the defender can often negate it with one stride and/or a good stick.

That seems to be Babcock's thinking, because if the Wings didn't depend so much on what goals he does score, I'd have to think he'd get demoted for his floating. Like I said, when Dats and Z aren't doing great you can still see them working hard out there. Franzen takes too many shifts off. And I'm not asking him to be as disciplined as Lidstrom is year round with his training and diet regimen. I'm just hoping he'd work his ass off for the 18 minutes a game he's on the ice. 18 minutes. If you can't bust your ass for that long every game, how self-entitled and complacent have you gotten??

To be fair, Chelios requested a trade and I believe had a NTC so he could pick where he wanted to go. Chelios was in the driver's seat more than Holland mind-tricking the Hawks into that deal. And those were the days of Bill Wirtz, when the Hawks were an awfully managed franchise.

The difference is that when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are on cold streaks, you can see them working hard, backchecking, going to the hard areas. Something about their game just seems a little off or the puck's just not going in but you can see the work. With Franzen it feels like he works hard for the first part of his shift and if he doesn't score right then he can't wait to coast back to the bench. He's got great size, a great shot and great hands. It's all about his compete level. or lack of it. When he scores in a game, it's like it reminds him how great it is to score. It lights a fire under him for the rest of the game and he keeps getting great chances and often scores again. If he's not scored in a while though he seems content to just whip it at the net and see if it goes in.

And his lack of speed. Remember Hudler on the point for the PP?

Exactly. And honestly I can't see the owners agreeing to that. They call it a lockout for a reason.

It wouldn't surprise me if Holland took a run at Brodeur to bring him here as a 1a 1b situation and let the best goalie win come playoff time. He's definitely done it before when there was the opportunity. I'm guessing Brodeur would look to go somewhere he'll be the clear starter. Unless he was okay sitting on the bench for half a season after a career of being played into the ground in New Jersey.

I was expecting more like 7 years, but if you're the Kings I think you probably have to make this gamble. Honestly Quick probably won't play at the level he did this year most seasons, but still is a very good goalie. The Kings now have Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, Carter, and Richards locked up until 2016 and everyone but Kopi signed until 2019. That's a pretty solid core to build a competitive team around every year.

Agreed. I'm not a huge Hudler fan but he was 5th on the team in points, 6 points behind Mule. As you point out, it's 25 goals and 50 points the Wings are losing and yet another thing for Holland to go out and try to replace this off season.

I have to wonder if Holland is very serious about Nash or if he's just letting it be known to other big free agents on the market he's shopping around and not just zeroing in on Parise, Semin, etc.

Agreed. And honestly if Crosby remains healthy (and assuming the league remains financially healthy), he'd be a steal at $3-4 mill a year 10 years from now. Crosby's risk is definitely higher given his concussion issues, but honestly I don't think it's tremendously higher than any given NHL player. They could all suffer a career-ending injury pretty much any game. And if his career is ended that way, he's no longer playing for the team so I don't really consider it cap circumvention. The most egregious cap circumvention to me is when they pay a player well below what he'll likely be worth at the end of his career or sign a contract that is almost certainly longer than the playing career of a player based on his age not health.

It'll be interesting to see how that math works out. McKenzie speculating that it's got the ridiculously low salary the last couple years to get the cap hit down. https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/ I have to think the league would let is slide anyway, then maybe shore some things up under the new CBA. though honestly there isn't a huge incentive for them to do that, is there? For GM's it's cap circumvention so a lot of them probably like it, and players can get more money and longer term, essentially career-long contracts.

I'm not bitter that he doesn't want to play in Detroit, but it is starting to sound Lindros-esque. A kid not willing to play where he's drafted and wanting to choose which team he gets to play for says something about him, and to me it's mostly not good. Here's an interesting opinion piece on it too, and how it basically circumvents the point of the draft. http://www.canada.com/sports/Justin+Schultz+debacle+flies+face+draft/6847782/story.html

No surprise here other than maybe term. Because he's well under the 35 year old limit, if he did have a career ending concussion they're on the hook to pay him but it doesn't count against the cap, right? I can never keep all the details of the CBA straight. But assuming that's the case, it's no surprised they'd take care of their franchise player like that.

That's the thing, Doan is absolutely a competitor. It's what makes him play on and sometimes over the edge. His comments showed a surprising lack of maturity, but I'd still take him on the Wings in a heartbeat.

I've always had the sort of love/hate thing with Doan watching him play. He plays on the edge, and often over it. But the guy's a competitor and has strapped his team on his back time and time again in the playoffs. That's hard not to like. I have to say though, I lost respect for him not for his antics in the handshake line with LA, but his whining in the lockerroom about the officials being against the Coyotes. He sounded like a bitter fan, not the captain. I have a feeling Tippet used an "everybody is against us" mentality to motivate his team, but it might have created an air of victimhood too. It's one thing for Smith, who's just another insane goalie, but I was just surprised to hear Doan say things like that.

Discuss the content of the post and not the person, please. Also, this thread is about Shanny and the HHoF. I understand how some discussion of former players is relevant to talk of HHoF and retiring player's numbers, but if we start re-hashing the mess that was Fedorov's departure, it's gonna take this thread way off topic. (That last part was directed at everyone in the thread. I was about to jump into the Fedorov discussion as well).

Hmm. That almost makes me want him on the team. Ott has some good qualities as a player, but he's just too big of a weasel for me to want him on the Wings. I don't like the way the guy plays the game.

If Sundin had played somewhere other than Toronto for most of his career, I doubt he gets in over Shanny. Glad Oates got in though.

I think the difference is Shanny was a power forward. And one of the best. He's the only player in NHL history with over 600 goals and 2,000 PIMs. He's got equal leadership to Sundin and three more Cups. The points per game isn't as good, but they played different positions. He's the 2nd most goals by a left winger behind Robitaille. And he did that playing the left wing lock years in Detroit and stepping up to drop the gloves.

I always liked Sundin, but there's no way he should've gotten in ahead of Shanny.