Majsheppard

I remember writing like 800 words in response to this already. I hear you, but you aren't countering my points. Getting knocked out in the first round one year after winning the cup doesn't discount the quality of your team or the likely hood of winning multiple titles. How many times in the past 20 years have the Wings been knocked out in the first or second rounds?!?! Fair enough, but the rest of the team is absurdly good. I just don't get this, after all of the talk on these boards about how the Wings should be built more like the 97, 98 era Yzerman Wings... and then comes along a team that has that feel about it, and a ton of farm depth and you call it a fluke and a one off. There are no guarantees. Yet I find this Kings team to be the closest thing to a sure bet to be elite in a long time.

I think the conservative estimate for Suter has to be 7 Million. Anything under that I think is fantasy. Semin isn't going to be on this team unless he gives up on the money. I would consider him to be be where you recoup the money, because he might not be worth more than Franzen in the Wings mind. I get the feeling he could go somewhere for a cup and sign a cheap deal and bail for the KHL at any point to get real money. I think you have Helm and Abs way underpaid. I expect they could get that money... but then it would be short term. I have a feeling they both will get long term contracts in excess of two million. Schultz will also get way more than what you are giving him. I expect him to get at least first round entry money. I would up that at least one million. There is no way Holland isn't signing Quincey short of Kyle having dellusions of grandure. You have to factor that in. Your roster doesn't seem doable, or at least not likely. I also don't think it takes into account what the rumor mill indicates as the big targets for Holland. I am going to put this out there. Suter and Parise are 1A and 1B. Those fail, then I would see some of these guys show up. I feel the defense, failing Suter is going to include Garrison. I think he gets signed before Schultz in that event. Schultz's agent has said he wants a 1-way spot ensured. I don't think the Wings do that unless they are desperate. He just sounds to me to be more of a risk at a large contract with a spot ensured, than the Wings like to take. So to recap I expect Garrison then Wideman, likely before Schultz. Parise, if they miss on him then they will kick the tires on Semin, but they won't pay him. Boyes and Hudler is the backup plan there. Moen also plays in to this discussion. I actually think they go harder at Zach than Ryan because I feel they are more desperate at goalscorer than D. That is, that they can fix by committee. Worst case scenario on Defense is they bring in Wideman, Garrison, and Quincey and let Smith work his way in, and look for a trade later to fix the other problems by moving defensive depth.

I like your counter argument. I want to say this though in response. The Penguins had three superstar forwards, no true superstar defenseman let alone a young one, and an elite goaltender. It is true that Quick could follow Fleury, but Fleury was never as good as Quick in this run. None of the superstars were bargins at the time. The Kings have good rates on Brown, Anze, Carter, Richards... I consider their forward core better. I think that the Pens are a team that goes as Malkin and Crosby go, while the Kings can have two guys go cold and not be done. Then their is the defense... Much better than anything Pit has had. They have the best dman FROM the Pens run in Scudari. Then there is Doughty who is locked up a while, and has shown potential to be an offensive powerhouse that only the Bruins and the Wings have had on the back end in your group. Greene has proven to be a heart and soul dman that is on the rise. It has been said again and again, that their farm team is solid. I don't think any of the teams on your list have had better, including the Wings following Kroner. (though I think we will have a great run coming up...) Finally, I think discounting the Bruins after one season isn't fair. Pit can still be a dynasty while Crosby still has a head, and are favored in Las Vegas to win the cup as of right now. Boston has an absurd team and will go as far as Tukka takes them. They have the deepest stable of centers I have ever seen. Both of those teams could still be dynasties. I just feel that you are right that dynasties are not going to be common. Yet, if anyone had a shot, it is LA. Furthermore, I think that a dynasty will also have to include how good a team is year in and out. I would say that the Wings dynasty includes the near win that was stolen by the league/pens. Same goes for the Pens nearly winning the year prior. In the end, I don't think the Kings can avoid being a dynasty short of total meltdown. They will win at least another cup in the next four years. If they are competitive for at least 7 years and win two cups, I consider that a dynasty. I wouldn't be surprised if they manage more cups, especially if we end up with the stupid divisional playoff format. Finally, the competition in the west is shifting towards the central, although the Wings and Preds will take big steps back. Vancouver is falling apart, San Jose has a closing window, and the division that might be would see them as the clear superpower. The Wings are my favourite team, and I love the Kings as well. I fear the Kings more than any other team, and I did before they managed one of the best seasons ever in terms of acquiring two of the best contracts to be had in Richards and Carter. I thought so before Quick became the best goaltender in the league and had the best postseason ever. I thought so before I noticed that they are shedding the two horrible contracts they have in Penner and Gagne. I thought so on the strength of Anze, Brown, Doughty, and the farm. They just have everything going for them. I don't know how anyone didn't see this coming as soon as they made the Carter deal. I will say they need another puck mover on D in order to stay amazing, but they have some in the pipe and can be aggressive in free agency. I think Wideman would look good in a Kings uniform and would help balance the defense and offense of the team. I just am wondering who doesn't think the Wings are a dynasty... also i don't think the NHL has any dynasty moniker to bestow. I still think people who think the Kings as elite are ignoring all the signs.

You just didn't pay any attention to them during the year. They had the best d in the league, best goaltending, and they had the worst offense. This was because Richards was no where near what he was in philly while Penner and Gagne were dragging them down by being terrible and hurt. They got things figured out and improved with Carter. They finished five points ahead of ninth and only two points behind PHX for THIRD PLACE! They didn't squeek in, and I was one of a few that were pointing out that they were a better team than the top three, and they proved that. I had them losing in the Western Conference to Nashville, which I am glad didn't happen. Their dominance in the playoffs was no fluke, and if you think that a team that can win 8 games on the road won't have prolonged success, than I don't know what to say. You actually think that teams with major issues, older players, and players known for underperforming in the clutch will rebound before the team with the best goaltender continues success... Alright, but I just want to know where you want your crow sent a couple years from now.

There is no doubt that they are a dynasty. They are in great cap shape, have the core locked up, have one of the strongest farm systems with an AHL dynasty currently going strong, and to top it all off they are young and ambitious. Plus they now have an extreme amount of extra benefits in going after free agents. You can live in Malibu, you can be friends with stars, you can try to have a movie career on the side, you can come here and play on a team so strong that we owned the playoffs on a level only seen by the Oilers. Very few teams will be able to compete with that. They will win as much as they are hungry, and the talk is they want to get Parise to stay hungry. I already said on another thread that I would watch out for them going after both Parise and Suter. They have to be the main competition with all that I outlined here. Futhermore, they need to sign two more players to have 22 under contract... they are only losing Stoll and Penner (Penner would be no loss). they have 16 million in money. They could give both Parise and Suter 8 million for life, and if they need more space they can buyout Gagne's final year at 3.5. It is a gamble with Quick coming into his final year... but the cap was expected to go to 76 before it was temporarily set at 70... I wouldn't be surprised if that money shows up later in the offseason or next year. They could have a rough... but manageable offseason next year that could include moving some players. I know if I were to be the Kings GM, I would go hard at these two. If you could convince Parise to take 6.8 like Kopitar and Suter to take 7 like Doughty... they would be the greatest team in the league for years to come.

Not only in LA, remember the pressed breasts down in FLA? The lady who is a sex offender now lol.

I have never been more upset with the Red Wings than right now. They have completely sold out the average fan on this event to make as much money as possible by making it nothing more than marketing for season tickets. I understand the tickets being pricey, and I think that is fine and okay... but if you make them so limited with the ******* stub hub s*** then you are putting the tickets out of reach of the fans. At least with a public sale you are going to get some actual fans to get their hands on tickets. I would love to go to this event, but the average ticket price would use up 10% of my savings because the economy sucks and I have college debt. I would have rather they sold the tickets directly to the Detroit fans at three times the cost and that way the scalpers wouldn't be able to invest as much. Honestly, they want me to drop 800 bucks down for season tickets so I can drop another 150 down on these... Can't I just give you 800 for the tickets and call it even? I know for a fact I would never give that to a scalper. I did it once for the Pistons championship game and it remains one of the biggest regrets ever.

I wouldn't even consider offering him a contract until I have kicked the tires and lost out on every other option. Stress that even more with Parise and Suter. I wouldn't sign Hudler until I know where I stand on the big contracts. Hell, I wouldn't sign him longer than a year because next year is going to be rough as well.

If you trust the sources being thrown around on twitter, Suter is telling the team that he doesn't want to play in certain places such as Philly. Many of these sources also place Detroit on the top of his list. I still think who ever trades for him will have a decent shot at signing him, especially if it is the Wild. I don't see the Preds trading to the Wild or the Wings as they would be new division rivals. Watch out for the Kings to make the deal for Suter and Parise. They could pay both 8 million for life and only lose Stoll in the process. They also still have one of the most stocked AHL clubs and have the ammo. I am hoping that both Parise and Suter tell the teams they wont sign with anyone prior to july 1. Not just for us, but it will make the entire free agency process better, and will improve our chances at signing second choices and keeping our pipeline going. The only trade I would consider at this point is Quincey's rights for Suter's.

I just don't think he is in the Wings top five choices to fix the backline this season.

Twitter is alive with suggestion that Dustin Brown could be available. I would very much like to add him to the Wings.

Well, I don't know. Every other time a player's rights have been traded it netted far more than this... I really would have rather tried to get a bit more from the Ducks or the Kings than just get a 7th. I thought perhaps we could have gotten at least a 4th.

I don't think it would ever happen, but I would do it.

Well, because it is a waste. Perhaps we should discuss if we need oxygen to breathe, next. Do you think we should have a thread about if Lidstrom will make the hall of fame?

Remind me how much Eric Boulton is helping the Devils in the finals or how much Kyle Clifford has made the Kings win the cup. Goons are for teams that can't fill the stands unless they can play. I'd take Clarkson for sure from the Devils, but its more because he is a net crasher... all of the things in the world we need, the last is toughness the way this list defines it. I just don't see the point. When you don't have much money, and the cash needs to go to better players. I will take an enforcer, if we have all the issues with the team solved. We don't.

I am not that high on him. It would depend on how cheap. I would think of him to be a number four dman, and I think we can fill that and should focus on a top paring or two...

This should be deleted just because there is no point to it. Quick has has one of the best playoffs of any player, ever.

That seems like a high price imo. I would rather see the rights to Hudler and Quincey traded now for picks.

You know who would play well with Suter? Anyone. You know who we don't have? Suter. You know what wasn't good last year? Forwards. You know what won't help? Trading them for defensemen. Honest to God, any trade for Green will piss me off, but one including Helm is dumb by itself. Franzen straight for Green would be iffy but could work. I don't like it really. I want to point out that Green being nominated for the Norris doesn't make him a good defensemen. It just says his stats were good that one year. He scored 30+ goals. That was absurd, but he isn't good at defending. I mean, you don't get anything for being good at something else. It would be like getting a car based on the good sat nav... while it sucks at driving. Green is rubbish, no way would I make this deal. More puck hounds at forward please. That is what we need.

Your list is rubbish. Toughness isn't hitting or fighting, or at least the toughness the Wings need. They need puck hounds, people who fight for the puck, not fight for the fight. Anyone who has wheels in the corners, wheels to the net. I'd rather have Dustin Brown or Pavelski than anyone on your list, and neither of them would be considered fighters. Brown would fit the tough guy mold perhaps due to hits... but it isn't the reason you are going for it. I really cannot agree with your premise at all. The Wings would have won if they played the way the Kings do... I can get behind Doan on your list, Garrison as well... Way to get two people on a list of 50 that are worth signing... I mean, unless you rather get fighting PIMs than wins.

I think it always should be compared to his competition. If Schultz has shown he is better he can play, if not he should go to the AHL. I wouldn't like to tell all our rookies that put in the professional league development that you can bypass the work to make it to the club... however if you let skillful players use skill for merit, then you have to let that play itself out in training camp. In the end the young players like Kindl and Smith have more of a chance to make this team with Schultz instead of Stuart or Lidstrom... so they shouldn't be overly worried with us giving a contract to Justin.

E impressed at times, but still isn't worth his contract. This year I think you can expect him to be...

No. BTW, Green is one of the worst defensemen I have ever seen. He has offensive power and helps a power play but is terrible defensively, gets banged up every so often, and just isn't someone I would build my defense around. I think he is a luxury, and the Wings surely can't afford that let alone at the expense of cornerstones.

The last major rebuild following the lockout saw Holland doing things one way. He brought in a ton of players that did not reach their potential in other places, were overlooked, or were specific player types and some didn't make the cut but the entire team was shook up by players who fought for time. I wouldn't be surprised to see Garrison be added in addition to Schultz and others. Lilja, Sammuelson, Cleary were all those types of players... the team also let young players come in that didn't crack the roster as much. I still think this will be the major way of the rebuild. He will go after Parise and Suter... maybe even try to make a blockbuster... this doesn't mean it will be a given. I think they are prepared to take a few more steps back than we would like to make sure the team stays on their tracks. It won't make me happy, but then again, there is very little that I really want to add to the team that would fix it that doesn't require a trade. I am more upset that we didn't make more moves with Lids on the team. I wanted Willie, Anze, Brown, Carter, Richards all when they were available but none were obtainable with the exception of Willie and they are playing so well now. Although it would help if we drafted Quick... My point is we have the will, but it is going to take several shrewd moves to improve and a few years. I think we all have to realize it is going to get ugly before it gets better, but competition won't be the worst... unless we give up on the wrong person then GO TRADE FOR HIM LATER!!!! I blame Quincey for everything Maybe I should make that Meech. Personally, with all I have read so far... I am hoping Nill takes over next season and the team moves in a different direction, preferably one that involves at least one new offensively minded coach who can get more of a puck hound game going... Anyways... tangent? I say if we miss out on either Parise or Suter... we should add as many bodies as possible and relegate the losers to the AHL where contracts don't matter. Get ready for the next wave and maybe get one more before the Euro Twins era ends the same way the Lidstrom era ended, and the Yzerman before that...

They did it with Ilya, suffered for a bit, and then went to the finals. I have to agree, if NJ wants him back they can make it happen. It isn't impossible and they had to be planning for it. Parise can write his own ticket, so we just have to wait and see what happens. I am not counting on him coming to Detroit though, unfortunately.