Dats to flyers in offseason?

[Hank 0]

Zetterberg has 11pts in 22 games in those 3 years. Do you think that the whole team's poor play may have had something to do with the low playoff scoring by all (except Lang) Wing's leading scorers?

But I said that points weren't the only indicator. Shanny didn' t produce in the past few years but in their cup wins and in between the guy would work his arse off doing anything he could. He would hit, fight, block shots, etc.

Datsyuk doesn't do those things. It's the lack of fire that makes me want to jetison him from this team.

[bringback91 2]

Zetterberg has 11pts in 22 games in those 3 years. Do you think that the whole team's poor play may have had something to do with the low playoff scoring by all (except Lang) Wing's leading scorers?

Oh no!!!, could it be! Your right man, but they've got there whipping boy. He's doing great and I think he'll prove it this year in the post season. It's been the same crap typed all year. I say just shut up already, and let the guy have his "last" shot as a Wing. As much as people over react to some weak stats in the post season, they do the same thing with Z over one freaking series. There ready to stitch the C on, give him 10 years at 7 mil, over one playoff series, where the TEAM still got eliminated. I'm sure Dats isn't ready to call it a career, so why are so many around here. they act like the guy is never going to improve or adapt. I laugh when people actually think that team would've went farther with Doan instead of Dats. Hate to break it to everyone, but Dats wasn't near the top of the list of things that went wrong with last years team.

[sibiriak 84]

But I said that points weren't the only indicator. Shanny didn' t produce in the past few years but in their cup wins and in between the guy would work his arse off doing anything he could. He would hit, fight, block shots, etc.

Datsyuk doesn't do those things. It's the lack of fire that makes me want to jetison him from this team.

If you scroll up to one of my earlier posts, I cited the stats that show that Datsyuk does all of "those things". He is first or second among the Wings forwards in face-offs, shot blocking, take aways, and +/-. He does not fight or hit much, but, again, it is not his role. Neither does Zetterberg. So why is one "the cancer" and another "the cornerstone"?

[bringback91 2]

But I said that points weren't the only indicator. Shanny didn' t produce in the past few years but in their cup wins and in between the guy would work his arse off doing anything he could. He would hit, fight, block shots, etc.

Datsyuk doesn't do those things. It's the lack of fire that makes me want to jetison him from this team.

Your right, he only leads the NHL in takeaways. Is in the top ten in FO%. Those are useless in the post season. Yeah I remember the good ole days when Stevie and Kozzie would smash some dudes thorugh the glass, then drop the golves with whoever was willing. No need to have your lilja and cheli type players along with dom stop the shots, lets have Z and Dats do it, cause that's what it takes to win, right? You speak of cyrstal balls to others, yet you seem to be able to read emotion and desire through an FSN feed, that's amazing. Well, at least we can all sleep easy, knowing that your not the GM.

[sibiriak 84]

But I said that points weren't the only indicator. Shanny didn' t produce in the past few years but in their cup wins and in between the guy would work his arse off doing anything he could. He would hit, fight, block shots, etc.

Datsyuk doesn't do those things. It's the lack of fire that makes me want to jetison him from this team.

Let's do a little trivia. Don't look it up, just go by your memory and gut feeling.

In the 2005-2006 playoffs,

1. Which forward had more hits?

a. Datsyuk

b. Zetterberg

c. Yzerman

d. Lang

2. Which forward blocked more shots?

a. Datsyuk

b. Zetterberg

c. Maltby

d. Shanahan

3. Which forward took the largest share of the team's faceoffs?

a. Datsyuk

b. Zetterberg

c. Yzerman

d. Draper

4. Which forward won the highest percentage of his faceoffs?

a. Datsyuk

b. Zetterberg

c. Yzerman

d. Draper

5. Which forward had more takeaways?

a. Datsyuk

b. Zetterberg

c. Lang

d. Draper

e. Shanahan

f. Maltby

Correct answers:

1. d Lang had 5, Zett 2 Steve and Dats - 1, Shanahan led the team with 11.

2. a and c Dats and Maltby each blocked 6 shots. Shanahan blocked 1.

3. a Dats took 28.9% of the team's faceoffs followed by Zett with 20.3%

4. a Dats with 56%. Actually, Cleary had a higher win% (59%), but he only took a few faceoffs. Yzerman and Draper had 54%

5. a and c Yes, Messrs "lazy and sucks" and "playoff cancer" had 7 TkAways each. Draper and Maltby had 4, Zetterberg had 6 and Shanahan had 3.

Now, do you still think that Shanahan did all the little things for the team, and Datsyuk just floated?

[Hank 0]

Your right, he only leads the NHL in takeaways. Is in the top ten in FO%. Those are useless in the post season. Yeah I remember the good ole days when Stevie and Kozzie would smash some dudes thorugh the glass, then drop the golves with whoever was willing. No need to have your lilja and cheli type players along with dom stop the shots, lets have Z and Dats do it, cause that's what it takes to win, right? You speak of cyrstal balls to others, yet you seem to be able to read emotion and desire through an FSN feed, that's amazing. Well, at least we can all sleep easy, knowing that your not the GM.

But Stevie and Kozie DID go into corners and TAKE checks to get the puck. That hit Kozzie took against Stevens would have retired Datsyuk.

And why shouldn't Zetts and Dats block shots or dig in corners for loose ones? All the other top playes in the league have done it? Is Dats too good for it?

And sibiriak, I already spoke about Datsyuk's shot blocking ability. He might be 2nd on the team but he's 117th in the league. And most of the guys in front of him have had a LOT more ice time and games than him.

Also, I couldn't give two craps and a piss about all his regular season stats. What's his stats in the playoffs? How many games has he now gone without a goal? 26! That might be acceptable for someone that's getting 4 minutes game but not for someone that wants $5 mill plus or caused such a stink last year trying to secure a deal.

Maybe you're seeing some special feed from FSN that shows what a playoff determined player he is. But like I pointed out, that play where he tucked his tampon in and ran from a loose puck told me all I needed to know about Pavel Datsyuk.

Keep believing in him and I'll see you right back here after we're eliminated in the 1st round after Dats goes 6 games with 2 assists and 0 goals.

EDIT: Wow, he won in faceoffs a lot. Big deal. I'd rather see him lose a faceoff and then go into the corner to battle for the loose puck.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Hank

[sibiriak 84]

And sibiriak, I already spoke about Datsyuk's shot blocking ability. He might be 2nd on the team but he's 117th in the league. And most of the guys in front of him have had a LOT more ice time and games than him.

Also, I couldn't give two craps and a piss about all his regular season stats. What's his stats in the playoffs? EDIT: Wow, he won in faceoffs a lot. Big deal. I'd rather see him lose a faceoff and then go into the corner to battle for the loose puck.

Refer to the above quiz for the answer to this.

Datsyuk blocked more shots than Shanahan in the last year playoffs.

Detroit as a team allows the least number of shots on goal. You can't block the shots that aren't there. Lilja leads the team in blocks and he is 99th in the league. (EDIT - and Hasek is last in the NHL in saves per game, at least among the goalies who played more than 15 games. Is he ducking the puck then?) Maltby is considered the prototypical defensive forward, and he blocked the same number of shots in the last playoffs and just 4 more than Datsyuk this season.

And I would much rather have the puck after a clean faceoff win, than have to battle for it in the corner after a faceoff loss. The former allows for a good shot on goal more often than the latter.

Winning faceoffs is even more important in the playoffs, and especially in uneven strength situations, which tend to decide the outcome of the game nowadays. Yzerman was so valuable, among other things, because he was one of the best faceoff men in the NHL.

The stats suggest that Datsyuk is the Wings most valuable forward defensively, and has been in the last playoffs as well.

EDIT-typos.

Edited February 7, 2007 by sibiriak

[Hank 0]

Refer to the above quiz for the answer to this.

Datsyuk blocked more shots than Shanahan in the last year playoffs.

Detroit as a team allows the least number of shots on goal. You can't block the shots that aren't there. Lilja leads the team in blocks and he is 99th in the league. (EDIT - and Hasek is last in the NHL in saves per game, at least among the goalies who played more than 15 games. Is he ducking the puck then?) Maltby is considered the prototypical defensive forward, and he blocked the same number of shots in the last playoffs and just 4 more than Datsyuk this season.

And I would much rather have the puck after a clean faceoff win, than have to battle for it in the corner after a faceoff loss. The former allows for a good shot on goal more often than the latter.

Winning faceoffs is even more important in the playoffs, and especially in uneven strength situations, which tend to decide the outcome of the game nowadays. Yzerman was so valuable, among other things, because he was one of the best faceoff men in the NHL.

The stats suggest that Datsyuk is the Wings most valuable forward defensively, and has been in the last playoffs as well.

EDIT-typos.

Well it's a good thing he's being paid so well for his defense. I guess we can count on Kopeky to do our scoring for us in the playoffs then? And we should certainly expect the other 11 forwards to do all the battling for loose pucks. We wouldn't want Mrs.Datsyuk to break a nail getting his nose dirty. Afterall, his job is winning faceoffs and nothing more.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Hank

[sibiriak 84]

Well it's a good thing he's being paid so well for his defense. I guess we can count on Kopeky to do our scoring for us in the playoffs then? And we should certainly expect the other 11 forwards to do all the battling for loose pucks. We wouldn't want Mrs.Datsyuk to break a nail getting his nose dirty. Afterall, his job is winning faceoffs and nothing more.

So now that I've proven that Datsyuk does a lot of the little things that help the team in the playoffs, such as: takes and wins a lion's share of faceoffs, blocks shots, plays good D (leads in +/- and TkAways), you retreat to "he should score more" defense. But Shanahan and Zetterberg scored only 1 and 2 points more respectively than Datsyuk, with 1 more game played. So scoring-wise he has been on par with the "proven playoff performer" and "the future captain". To summarize, Datsyuk played better defense, and was no worse offensively than any other Wings forward (except Lang) in the last playoffs, and yet it was all his fault? Perhaps you should watch more Wings playoff video footage from the last year than that one episode where Dats allegedly bailed on the play. You may then actually notice the things that he does, and does well.

EDIT - and since Datsyuk leads the team (and led it in the last playoffs) in takeaways, where do you suppose those takeaways come from? Perhaps at least some of them are the result of Datsyuk doing more then just standing there in center ice and having the opposition players deliver the puck to him on a silver platter? Perhaps a time or two he actually had to go to the boards, and into the corners, and actually take the puck away?

Edited February 7, 2007 by sibiriak

[Hank 0]

So now that I've proven that Datsyuk does a lot of the little things that help the team in the playoffs, such as: takes and wins a lion's share of faceoffs, blocks shots, plays good D (leads in +/- and TkAways), you retreat to "he should score more" defense. But Shanahan and Zetterberg scored only 1 and 2 points more respectively than Datsyuk, with 1 more game played. So scoring-wise he has been on par with the "proven playoff performer" and "the future captain". To summarize, Datsyuk played better defense, and was no worse offensively than any other Wings forward (except Lang) in the last playoffs, and yet it was all his fault? Perhaps you should watch more Wings playoff video footage from the last year than that one episode where Dats allegedly bailed on the play. You may then actually notice the things that he does, and does well.

EDIT - and since Datsyuk leads the team (and led it in the last playoffs) in takeaways, where do you suppose those takeaways come from? Perhaps at least some of them are the result of Datsyuk doing more then just standing there in center ice and having the opposition players deliver the puck to him on a silver platter? Perhaps a time or two he actually had to go to the boards, and into the corners, and actually take the puck away?

Zetterberg scored 6 goals in the playoffs last year compared to Datsyuk's 3 assists in 5 games. Scoring goals in the playoffs is A LOT harder than getting a 2nd assist here or there on the PP.

And most takeaways occur in the neutral zone or around the blueline. It's not like Dats goes into the corners to steal pucks from guys.

That one play stood out to me but there have been several others in the past 4 years that show me this guy has no balls for playoff hockey.

And you all but said it yourself that Datsyuk has yet to figure out how to perform when the intensity and physicality of playoff hockey comes around. Does that sound like a playoff performer to you?

But I can see I'm not going to be convincing you of anything. You are obviously looking through your Datsyuk coloured glasses and are convinced he's been our best playoff performer over the past 3 playoffs. It's just that he's unlucky that he hasn't scored in 26 straight playoff games. /sarcasm

Another point I wanted to bring up is that if you want to keep Datsyuk for next year it's going to cost a minimum of $7 million dollars, and here's why: Datsyuk has proven that he's a 50 point player with mediocre wingers. So if you want to pay him $5 million/year, you MUST get him a scoring winger to be effective. This would mean spending a minimum of $2 mill on a 30+ goal scorer. Off the top of my head, the only player who might sign for that, who has any touch around the net, is Billy Guerin. And even then, because of the good season he's having this year, he'll more than likely ask for $3 mil or so. So in effect, if you want to keep Dats, you might have to spend upwards of 8 or 9 million to get your money's worth.

Zetterberg wasn't doing much better without decent wingers but his goal total didn't drop as much comopared to what he did last year, only his assists suffered. Datsyuk hates to score almost as much as he hates to be touched. So if he's going to be a playmaker you can't have him line up with guys like Williams and Sammy. If you do, you might as well let him walk and keep Filpulla as your #2 centre. He could probably get close to as many points as Datsyuk with crappy wingers for a heck of a lot less.

[sibiriak 84]

Zetterberg scored 6 goals in the playoffs last year compared to Datsyuk's 3 assists in 5 games. Scoring goals in the playoffs is A LOT harder than getting a 2nd assist here or there on the PP.

Can you substantiate? How many of Datsyuk assists in the last three playoffs were "2nd assist here or there on the PP"? I seem to remember Zetterberg scoring from Dats 1st assists a few times.

And most takeaways occur in the neutral zone or around the blueline. It's not like Dats goes into the corners to steal pucks from guys.

Really? Evidence? I wonder, do you even watch hockey, outside of "the Coach's corner"? And why taking the puck away at the blue line is any worse than doing so in the corner? In fact, losing the puck on one's own blueline is considered a cardinal sin because it often leads to the opposition counterattack, with half of your own team caught on the other side of the red line. While losing it in the corner usually means that your team is back to defend.

That one play stood out to me but there have been several others in the past 4 years that show me this guy has no balls for playoff hockey.

And you all but said it yourself that Datsyuk has yet to figure out how to perform when the intensity and physicality of playoff hockey comes around. Does that sound like a playoff performer to you?

Yes, Datsyuk obviously has room for improvement in playoff scoring. I think that he will figure it out, and soon. We'll just have to wait and see. If he does not, Detroit has the option of not signing him. I think both the management and Datsyuk himself have arrived at that conclusion by now.

But I can see I'm not going to be convincing you of anything. You are obviously looking through your Datsyuk coloured glasses and are convinced he's been our best playoff performer over the past 3 playoffs. It's just that he's unlucky that he hasn't scored in 26 straight playoff games. /sarcasm

What color are the "Datsyuk coloured glasses"?

Another point I wanted to bring up is that if you want to keep Datsyuk for next year it's going to cost a minimum of $7 million dollars, and here's why: Datsyuk has proven that he's a 50 point player with mediocre wingers. So if you want to pay him $5 million/year, you MUST get him a scoring winger to be effective. This would mean spending a minimum of $2 mill on a 30+ goal scorer. Off the top of my head, the only player who might sign for that, who has any touch around the net, is Billy Guerin. And even then, because of the good season he's having this year, he'll more than likely ask for $3 mil or so. So in effect, if you want to keep Dats, you might have to spend upwards of 8 or 9 million to get your money's worth.

The $7 million number hasn't been mentioned anywhere outside these boards. What we know for sure, is that Datsyuk hopes to do better than $5 mil. for 5 years, because that is the offer that he declined. So I'd guess that signing him would take at worst about $5.5 for 2-3 years or over $6 for 4-5 years. To help Dats, Holland doesn't have to sign an established sniper. Datsyuk needs a winger that has a good hockey sense and half-decent shot. Doesn't have to be particularly strong or fast. And there are plenty of such players, some of them in the minors, some in Europe. And the Wings have one of the better scouting teams in the league. I'm sure they can find someone under $1 mil. Total for the two is going to be closer to $6 mil. maybe 6.5. If that buys you 25G 60A from Datsyuk and 20G 30A from the unnamed winger, that would be a good deal. Besides, why invent the wheel, if Detroit already has one of the best lines in the NHL in Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom?

Zetterberg wasn't doing much better without decent wingers but his goal total didn't drop as much compared to what he did last year, only his assists suffered. Datsyuk hates to score almost as much as he hates to be touched. So if he's going to be a playmaker you can't have him line up with guys like Williams and Sammy. If you do, you might as well let him walk and keep Filpulla as your #2 centre. He could probably get close to as many points as Datsyuk with crappy wingers for a heck of a lot less.

Let's examine that claim with stats, shall we?

As Ken and Mickey said yesterday, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Holmstrom were reunited on Dec. 20.

From Oct. 5, 2006 to Dec.19, 2006 Zetterberg averaged 0.38 GPG and 0.22 APG. After Dec. 20 he averaged 0.52 GPG and 0.91 APG. Last season, he averaged 0.51 GPG and 0.60 APG.

From Oct. 5, 2006 to Dec.19, 2006 Datsyuk averaged 0.22 GPG and 0.53 APG. After Dec. 20 he averaged 0.45 GPG and 0.95 APG. Last season, he averaged 0.37 GPG and 0.77 APG.

So, from Oct. 5 to Dec. 19 Zetterberg was scoring goals at 74% of last years avg and was getting assists at 37% of last season. After Dec. 20, he is scoring goals at 103% of last yr and assists at 153% of last yr. 1.4 times increase in G and 4-fold increase in A after his reunification with Datsyuk and Holmstrom.

Oct.5 to Dec. 19, Datsyuk was scoring G at 59% of last yr and A at 67.5%. After reuniting with #40 and #96 he gets G at 120.5% of last Yr's avg and A at 121%. That is doubling in G and 1.8 times increase in A after reunification of the line.

In overall points Zetterberg went from 54% of last year to 130%, 2.4 times increase. Datsyuk went from 65% to 121%, an 1.9 times increase. Seems that after the line was reunited, Zetterberg stats improved more than Datsyuk's stats did. You see, if one actually looks at the stats, the subjective memories of the few recent games won't cloud the objective view of what happens over the long season.

[WingNutt 12]

This discussion is hilarious I'd have to say sibiriak wins though, He has clearly proved everything he has said and no this isn't just because I'm a bias Datsyuk fan.

although it might have something to do with my sibiriak colored glasses I'm wearing.