2/12 GDT: Red Wings @ Flyers

[sibiriak 84]

pretty much. They went from not making the playoffs, to having Demers come in and they made it to the conference finals two years in a row. They came back from being down games to one against Toronto to go on to the conference finals that year in 86. That comeback was like the Stanley Cup for Red Wings fans.

And to be clear, I don't think the Wings need out and out enforcers on the team, but they do need players with grit and toughness. Look at a team like Anaheim. They're fast, big, and tough.

I'm not against having big, tough, fast players, if they are skilled enough. But those go in the top of the first round of the draft. By the time the Wings 25th to 30th pick comes up, there are either large pylons or small skilled guys left. Detroit would have to pick real high for 6-7years to amass the talent that Annaheim has. Or dismantle the team and trade everyone of value for high picks. Either way it would be 4-5years until the team becomes competitive again. One single exception where Latendresse was picked later in the draft does not disprove this.

[BlueMonk 102]

I'm not against having big, tough, fast players, if they are skilled enough. But those go in the top of the first round of the draft. By the time the Wings 25th to 30th pick comes up, there are either large pylons or small skilled guys left. Detroit would have to pick real high for 6-7years to amass the talent that Annaheim has. Or dismantle the team and trade everyone of value for high picks. Either way it would be 4-5years until the team becomes competitive again. One single exception where Latendresse was picked later in the draft does not disprove this.

Every NHL team has at least one or two pretty tough guys. That's a perfectly reasonable goal for the Red Wings. You don't need to blow up the team. They don't need to add a Chris Pronger or Jarome Iginla to get tougher. With the talent the Wings have, they've got the bargaining chips to acquire some of the more modestly talented players who bring grit to the team. They just haven't done it. Holland picks up a Cory Cross or Andreas Lilja and tells everyone he added toughness to the team. And these guys aren't even good hockey players, so don't tell me they couldn't afford to give that roster spot to someone who actually is tough.

[sibiriak 84]

Every NHL team has at least one or two pretty tough guys. That's a perfectly reasonable goal for the Red Wings. You don't need to blow up the team. They don't need to add a Chris Pronger or Jarome Iginla to get tougher. With the talent the Wings have, they've got the bargaining chips to acquire some of the more modestly talented players who bring grit to the team. They just haven't done it. Holland picks up a Cory Cross or Andreas Lilja and tells everyone he added toughness to the team. And these guys aren't even good hockey players, so don't tell me they couldn't afford to give that roster spot to someone who actually is tough.

Lilja and Cross were hired to do the same job: depth defenseman/insurance. Lilja is not as good as other Wings' D-men, but he is better than half of the other teams' 4th or 5th Dmen. So he isnot that easy to replace, in his role and at his salary. And having 1 or 2 enforcers on the team will not make it less seceptible to physical play by the opposition. Brashear did not prevent Ovechkin from being speared in the groin and being bruised everygame, and neither did A. Roy, Brookbank or Cairns protect Crosby from nasty staff. To be successful against SJ, Calgary,and Anaheims of the league palying similar style of game, the Wings would have to retool their lineup completely. Until then, they have to rely on their skill and puck posession to compete against them.

[BlueMonk 102]

Lilja and Cross were hired to do the same job: depth defenseman/insurance. Lilja is not as good as other Wings' D-men, but he is better than half of the other teams' 4th or 5th Dmen. So he isnot that easy to replace, in his role and at his salary. And having 1 or 2 enforcers on the team will not make it less seceptible to physical play by the opposition. Brashear did not prevent Ovechkin from being speared in the groin and being bruised everygame, and neither did A. Roy, Brookbank or Cairns protect Crosby from nasty staff. To be successful against SJ, Calgary,and Anaheims of the league palying similar style of game, the Wings would have to retool their lineup completely. Until then, they have to rely on their skill and puck posession to compete against them.

I don't really want to get into another argument about the value of enforcers, but let it suffice to say that not everyone agrees that they're not important to protecting a team's star players.

Regardless, it doesn't take a roster overhaul, it just takes adding a few role players who know their job. The Wings teams of '97 and '98 won Stanley Cups with a balance of skill and toughness. It's not an impossible goal.

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't really want to get into another argument about the value of enforcers, but let it suffice to say that not everyone agrees that they're not important to protecting a team's star players.

Regardless, it doesn't take a roster overhaul, it just takes adding a few role players who know their job. The Wings teams of '97 and '98 won Stanley Cups with a balance of skill and toughness. It's not an impossible goal.

The 97 Wings had:

Highly skilled players:

Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Larionov, Kozlov, McCarty, Sandstrom, Lapointe, Lidstrom, Murphy, Konstantinov, Fetisov

Tough guys:

Shanahan, McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Ward, Rouse, Kocur, Pushor

If you'll notice, there is HUGE overlap there. THAT is the key to those teams...not having a bunch of skilled guys and a few enforcers--having a few skilled guys who can stick up for themselves--including the best tough defensive defenseman and the best power forward in the league at the time, playing with several other highly skilled guys--the equivalent of adding Chris Pronger and Joe Thornton on this year's Wings team without giving up a core player. An improvement like that is NOT going to happen before next season at the earliest. That said, the Wings do stand as good a chance as any other team to win the Cup.

[AvsFan33 0]

hahahaha...ok guys i lied, im not really an avs fan, i just pretended to b to see what kind of convos i could start...anyway, im actually a flyers fan. even tho they suck this year, u gotta admit, that game was awesome. i saw it 5 rows from the ice, and it was amazing. miracle on ice 2.

[wingslogo19 281]

hahahaha...ok guys i lied, im not really an avs fan, i just pretended to b to see what kind of convos i could start...anyway, im actually a flyers fan. even tho they suck this year, u gotta admit, that game was awesome. i saw it 5 rows from the ice, and it was amazing. miracle on ice 2.

Yay.. LIKE WE GIVE A s***

[HenrikRules40 14]

hahahaha...ok guys i lied, im not really an avs fan, i just pretended to b to see what kind of convos i could start...anyway, im actually a flyers fan. even tho they suck this year, u gotta admit, that game was awesome. i saw it 5 rows from the ice, and it was amazing. miracle on ice 2.

Ukh...go away.

[Kp-Wings 3]

*rant*

I didn't really watch too much of the game, because Jack Bauer and the boys of 24 have Monday nights under control for me. And thank god I didn't watch much of it. During commercials I would occasionally flip to the game to look at the score and watch a bit, and once it hit 4-1 in the third I had enough. To my dismay, it ended up being much worse. Now, after watching some highlights and little bits, the Wings toughness, as already mentioned in about 500 previous posts, was clearly exposed, and very badly for that. And after seeing Hatcher actually keep up with the Wings really made me think that something was wrong. I really hope that Holland was taking notes on this game, and he better get some toughness. I didn't watch the entire game, so I don't know how everything went. But judging by what everyone said and what I did see, it was pretty bad.

[BlueMonk 102]

The 97 Wings had:

Highly skilled players:

Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Larionov, Kozlov, McCarty, Sandstrom, Lapointe, Lidstrom, Murphy, Konstantinov, Fetisov

Tough guys:

Shanahan, McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Ward, Rouse, Kocur, Pushor

If you'll notice, there is HUGE overlap there. THAT is the key to those teams...not having a bunch of skilled guys and a few enforcers--having a few skilled guys who can stick up for themselves--including the best tough defensive defenseman and the best power forward in the league at the time, playing with several other highly skilled guys--the equivalent of adding Chris Pronger and Joe Thornton on this year's Wings team without giving up a core player. An improvement like that is NOT going to happen before next season at the earliest. That said, the Wings do stand as good a chance as any other team to win the Cup.

That's all well and good, but in the salary cap era, teams can't have a whole roster full of tough, physical players who have lots of skill. They'll be lucky to have a couple. In today's league, if you're going to stock up on skilled players who aren't tough, your choices are to have zero tough guys (the Wings' way) or to fill in the roster with some middle of the road players who are tough.

We've seen the playoff results of the former.

[tazzer82 0]

"The carpet doesnt quite match the drapes right now"

...no comment....

I didn't catch that one, but why would you say such a thing on a televised game? Which announcer was it that said it anyhow? I could have sworn that later on during the game I heard one of them say something to the extent of "the Wings are getting r*ped by the Flyers right now" I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that comment. Whoever the other announcer was with Doc needs to not see another game as an announcer for a comment like that one.