Gary Bettman will be on at 4

[Hank 0]

Do you people understand economies of scale? I would rather have our sport on the #1 sports network in the world rather than VS. which isn't even in the top 20 in terms of ratings!!!!

Come on! ESPN would have given them more exposure in the first month of the season than VS. has all season. And, you wouldn't have two deals, since ABC would have the weekend matinees.

Gary Buttman is a F**king clown. The fact is he got his ass handed to him when they negotiated and he's still rubbing it to make the hurt go away.

FIRE GARY

You're absolutely right.

I'm sure he cries himself to sleep everynight when he thinks about how he got the players to take paycut while adding a CAP. Yup, I'm sure the owners are pissed at him!

The TV deal debate is up in the air. It's the classic, would you rather be a big fish in a little pond or a small fish in the ocean. I know that when ESPN did have the NHL it was arduous at times just to find a game. With vs. you always know their schedule and their pre-game and post-game coverage blows anything ESPN ever did out of the water.

And lets not forget what someone else here pointed out, it was the only deal available. ESPN wanted the rights for free. VS was offering up 9 digits. Which deal would you take if you were an owner? At least 19 of the 30 agreed that VS was the better choice. Get over it.

EDIT: I wanted to ask why do people think ESPN was such a great promoter in the first place? It's not like the NHL was soaring into the national landscape while being on that station. It's not like ESPN went out of their way to promote the NHL. The ratings, per capita are the same or even better with VS. Sure, there aren't as many subscribers but it's a new channel, we have to have some foresight here; something I hear people shouting for from the owners and the league over and over again.

And why do people care really? Hockey is such a niche sport that it's asinine to think that Joe Rodriguez in New Mexico is suddenly going to become a hockey fan because he has ESPN and he's too lazy to turn the station when an NHL game pops up. ESPN didn't do squat for growing the sport. At least VS is treating it like the wonderful sport it is and not the ugly stepchild that ESPN branded it.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Hank

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Do you people understand economies of scale? I would rather have our sport on the #1 sports network in the world rather than VS. which isn't even in the top 20 in terms of ratings!!!!

Come on! ESPN would have given them more exposure in the first month of the season than VS. has all season. And, you wouldn't have two deals, since ABC would have the weekend matinees.

Gary Buttman is a F**king clown. The fact is he got his ass handed to him when they negotiated and he's still rubbing it to make the hurt go away.

FIRE GARY

Yes, I do understand economies of scale. Do you?

Because ecomomies of scale involves reduced production costs as a result of larger production runs. How exactly does that relate to hockey being on ESPN?

I'm not sold on Versus either. The only hope is if the channel grows and hockey is its premier sport. Right now being neglected on ESPN still would've reached more fans.

But the reality is that hockey has become a marginalized sport (and yes I do blame Bettman for a fair share of that, considering where the league was when he took over). It has to increase its popularity for ESPN to even be interested in carrying it again.

EDIT: After looking around a bit, what happened is ESPN didn't renew pick up the $60 million option they had. There was no deal in place between the NHL and the NHLPA at the time, and they didn't feel like the risk of ponying up the money for a season that didn't exist yet was worth the potentital reward. If you want to blame Bettman, blame him for his role in the lockout, which was a factor in the loss of ESPN.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=126216&hubname=

Edited March 12, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[Hank 0]

Yes, I do understand economies of scale. Do you?

Because ecomomies of scale involves reduced production costs as a result of larger production runs. How exactly does that relate to hockey being on ESPN?

I'm not sold on Versus either. The only hope is if the channel grows and hockey is its premier sport. Right now being neglected on ESPN still would've reached more fans.

But the reality is that hockey has become a marginalized sport (and yes I do blame Bettman for a fair share of that, considering where the league was when he took over). It has to increase its popularity for ESPN to even be interested in carrying it again.

EDIT: I didn't realize Versus was the only deal offered. I thought ESPN had offered some money, it just wasn't much.

Bettman certainly deserves some of the blame for what's happened with the NHL. When the Rangers won in 94 it seemed like the NHL was on the verge of busting into the National sports psyche.

But it's not all Bettman's fault. Over-expansion (caused by greedy owners), a work stoppage that didn't fix any problems, oversized goalie equipment and the nuetral zone trap coupled with obstruction, hooking and holding really kiboshed any momentum the league had going.

Hopefully this new CAP coupled with not allowing obstruction should help. But it's a long road to travel.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Bettman certainly deserves some of the blame for what's happened with the NHL. When the Rangers won in 94 it seemed like the NHL was on the verge of busting into the National sports psyche.

But it's not all Bettman's fault. Over-expansion (caused by greedy owners), a work stoppage that didn't fix any problems, oversized goalie equipment and the nuetral zone trap coupled with obstruction, hooking and holding really kiboshed any momentum the league had going.

Hopefully this new CAP coupled with not allowing obstruction should help. But it's a long road to travel.

You can thank the New Jersey Devils for that.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Bettman certainly deserves some of the blame for what's happened with the NHL. When the Rangers won in 94 it seemed like the NHL was on the verge of busting into the National sports psyche.

But it's not all Bettman's fault. Over-expansion (caused by greedy owners), a work stoppage that didn't fix any problems, oversized goalie equipment and the nuetral zone trap coupled with obstruction, hooking and holding really kiboshed any momentum the league had going.

Hopefully this new CAP coupled with not allowing obstruction should help. But it's a long road to travel.

the work stoppage that didnt fix any problems was under Bettman's leadership.

He also could have addressed the clutch and grab hockey and the goaltender equipment issues earlier. he is the commissioner of the NHL and ultimately responsible for the product. Instead he denied there was a problem for years, as fans, commentators and some NHLers (like Hull) complained about how slow and ugly the game had gotten. Then during the lockout which resulted from his failed economic vision in 95, he decided to go ahead and finally make those changes to the game.

[Hank 0]

You can thank the New Jersey Devils for that.

Don't get me started! Everything about that franchise is boring as poop. From their city to their jerseys to their emblem. Even Lou would cure the most hardened insomniac.

And remember their Cup celebration? How they basically only circled their arena 3 times before heading inside? They don't even have a nice road to drive down to parade the Cup. Man I wish they would just fold!

[Kp-Wings 3]

Don't get me started! Everything about that franchise is boring as poop. From their city to their jerseys to their emblem. Even Lou would cure the most hardened insomniac.

And remember their Cup celebration? How they basically only circled their arena 3 times before heading inside? They don't even have a nice road to drive down to parade the Cup. Man I wish they would just fold!

Very good point. Nobody really cares that much about the Devils anyways. In fact, what area of Jersey is really a fully populated area to begin with?

The Devils have had attendance problems right through their whole existance. For one, nobody really wants to drive out in the middle of a haunted swamp which is basically where they play. The other, and most important, is the fact that the team is so utterly boring as you already mentioned. They have no goal scorers (sorry, this means you too Patrick Elias) and whenever they win games it's by a 1-0 or 2-1 score. When you look at these qualities, I'm suprised the Devils have any fans at all.

[Hank 0]

Very good point. Nobody really cares that much about the Devils anyways. In fact, what area of Jersey is really a fully populated area to begin with?

The Devils have had attendance problems right through their whole existance. For one, nobody really wants to drive out in the middle of a haunted swamp which is basically where they play. The other, and most important, is the fact that the team is so utterly boring as you already mentioned. They have no goal scorers (sorry, this means you too Patrick Elias) and whenever they win games it's by a 1-0 or 2-1 score. When you look at these qualities, I'm suprised the Devils have any fans at all.

I laugh at their fans too because they'll be the first ones to say that 'good defense is just as exciting as good offense' or something even more rediculous like 'a John Madden back check is just as exciting as an Ovechkin end-to-end rush" (I actually had Devils fan say this to me).

But they have to say that because that's all they have. If you suddenly gave them the Penguins roster they'd be singing another tune.

And like you said, anyteam that can't even sell out a Stanley Cup game doesn't deserve to be in the NHL.

the work stoppage that didnt fix any problems was under Bettman's leadership.

He also could have addressed the clutch and grab hockey and the goaltender equipment issues earlier. he is the commissioner of the NHL and ultimately responsible for the product. Instead he denied there was a problem for years, as fans, commentators and some NHLers (like Hull) complained about how slow and ugly the game had gotten. Then during the lockout which resulted from his failed economic vision in 95, he decided to go ahead and finally make those changes to the game.

I can't argue with anything you've said here. The goalie equipment still needs to be addressed but I think the PA will fight that till the bitter end (hence the bigger net debate - which is a Colin Campbell idea, not Bettman).

Anyway, it's for those exact reasons that I support the 'new' NHL and it's standard of officiating. The sport desperately needed to be cleaned up with all the obstruction and they're finally doing it. It's not perfect and it may take another season or two but I feel the game is 100x better than what it was. When they finally get things ironed out, it will be the best hockey product we've seen.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

And like you said, anyteam that can't even sell out a Stanley Cup game doesn't deserve to be in the NHL.

I can't argue with anything you've said here. The goalie equipment still needs to be addressed but I think the PA will fight that till the bitter end (hence the bigger net debate - which is a Colin Campbell idea, not Bettman).

Anyway, it's for those exact reasons that I support the 'new' NHL and it's standard of officiating. The sport desperately needed to be cleaned up with all the obstruction and they're finally doing it. It's not perfect and it may take another season or two but I feel the game is 100x better than what it was. When they finally get things ironed out, it will be the best hockey product we've seen.

Is it the PA that's fighting the goalie equipment regulation? That's annoying. considering the other players in the PA should outnumber goalies by a wide margin, you'd think it would be easy to pass.

The increasing the nets is a terrible idea. I didn't realize that it was Campbell pushing that. They better take a long hard look at the goalie equipment before they touch the nets. The current equipment still goes well beyond what is needed to protect a goalie from injury.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The Devils have had attendance problems right through their whole existance. For one, nobody really wants to drive out in the middle of a haunted swamp which is basically where they play.

Bwahahahhaha! That's the best thing I've read all day. I just got the mental image of the Scooby gang trucking on down to a Devils game... Shaggy wearing a Devils jersey- "I've gotta baaaad feeling 'bout this."

[Hank 0]

Is it the PA that's fighting the goalie equipment regulation? That's annoying. considering the other players in the PA should outnumber goalies by a wide margin, you'd think it would be easy to pass.

The increasing the nets is a terrible idea. I didn't realize that it was Campbell pushing that. They better take a long hard look at the goalie equipment before they touch the nets. The current equipment still goes well beyond what is needed to protect a goalie from injury.

Yeah. The PA always brings up the magic word "safety" and that pretty much kills the conversation. Campbell has said before that as long as the PA plays that angle they can't do anything as it would create an unsafe work environment.

What I wish the NHL would do is contract out a goalie manufacturer and have them create upperbody padding that is both streamlined and safe. If a cop can wear bulletproof protection under a T-shirt, certainly Bauer or Brians can create chest and arm protection to be streamlined as well. If they can prove that they can be just as safe, or moreso, with half-sized equipment, then there should be no debate.

I still get incredibly annoyed when I see goalies like Ryan Miller and his 140 lbs scrawny behind in equipment that makes him look like Shrek.

It says a lot when 6'4", 207 lb Ken Dryden wore a size 48 jersey and Kelly Hrudey (5'9", 160 lbs) wore a size 60.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Bwahahahhaha! That's the best thing I've read all day. I just got the mental image of the Scooby gang trucking on down to a Devils game... Shaggy wearing a Devils jersey- "I've gotta baaaad feeling 'bout this."

I'm sure you've heard of all the ghost rumors of things in New Jersey. The actual Jersey Devil being one of them.

Not that any of it is proven true, just a fun thought to think about.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The current equipment still goes well beyond what is needed to protect a goalie from injury.

In terms of Pad width and height I'll agree. Same goes for trapper and blocker size. The chest gear and pad thicknesses aren't really a big deal, and do contribute to the blocking effects of the gear. With composite sticks and increasing training focus on minute details players are shooting harder and faster- goalie equipment should be given the liberty of at least maintaining the original level of protection. I don't buy the argument that chest protectors are oversized to any great extent, but I do think that they pads, trapper and blocker are all comically oversized.

I'm sure you've heard of all the ghost rumors of things in New Jersey. The actual Jersey Devil being one of them.

Not that any of it is proven true, just a fun thought to think about.

Yeah, I think it's adorable when people try and make up their own explanations to unexplained events and come up with a magical solution. But then again I'm a scientist, it's my job to be skeptical

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

In terms of Pad width and height I'll agree. Same goes for trapper and blocker size. The chest gear and pad thicknesses aren't really a big deal, and do contribute to the blocking effects of the gear. With composite sticks and increasing training focus on minute details players are shooting harder and faster- goalie equipment should be given the liberty of at least maintaining the original level of protection. I don't buy the argument that chest protectors are oversized to any great extent, but I do think that they pads, trapper and blocker are all comically oversized.

Yeah, I think it's adorable when people try and make up their own explanations to unexplained events and come up with a magical solution. But then again I'm a scientist, it's my job to be skeptical

definitely.

I looked through the NHL rulebook a while back, and the maximum perimeter of a trapper is something like 48". The catching glove can be four freaking feet around. That's ridiculous. I can't remember the length, but the maximum distance from the heel of the palm to the actually trap part by the fingers was insanely long too. And the width of the wrist protection is about 4 times the average wrist.

The chest and arm protection is a more difficult matter. I think there's probably still some ways that equipment can be reduced without compromising safety, but because it varies so much on the size of the goalie, it's gonna be awful hard to police it.

But the trapper, blockpad, and leg pads all can easily get smaller without compromising safety. Imagine how much more net will be exposed just by reducing the length of the trapper a little.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

If a cop can wear bulletproof protection under a T-shirt, certainly Bauer or Brians can create chest and arm protection to be streamlined as well.

Two completely different concepts here- a Kevlar vest is intended to prevent penetration of a projectile/sharp hand weapon. Kevlar does not protect the wearer from the blunt force trauma.

Goalie gear is not intended to prevent penetration. Goalie gear is intended to absorb the force of an impacting puck and minimise blunt force trauma. The fact remains that thickness is directly proportional to the protection offered. As the puck deforms the material it transfers kinetic energy into the work needed to deform that material. Of course the specifics of that material are very important- playing with density, elastic properties, ...etc will change how much energy is needed to deform a unit volume. So yes, you can have certain materials that will offer the same protection in a smaller thickness, but I've got no clue what the engineering design specifics are for a high-end chest protector, and no idea what the economic factors are. A superthin composite chest protector that costs $30,000 is pretty fricken useless at this point, and the research cost of developing this materials may not be a logical expense in the light of the fact that current technology works just fine.

Most innovation is incremental- a little tweak here or twist there. Kevlar was a leap forward in materials engineering. You can't demand leaps like that every day- they're rarer then we all wish.

But the trapper, blockpad, and leg pads all can easily get smaller without compromising safety. Imagine how much more net will be exposed just by reducing the length of the trapper a little.

AND we could finally make more accurate comparisons between old time goalies and modern goalies. How good would Sawchuck have been with modern gear?

[Icteria virens 11]

You're absolutely right.

I'm sure he cries himself to sleep everynight when he thinks about how he got the players to take paycut while adding a CAP. Yup, I'm sure the owners are pissed at him!

The TV deal debate is up in the air. It's the classic, would you rather be a big fish in a little pond or a small fish in the ocean. I know that when ESPN did have the NHL it was arduous at times just to find a game. With vs. you always know their schedule and their pre-game and post-game coverage blows anything ESPN ever did out of the water.

And lets not forget what someone else here pointed out, it was the only deal available. ESPN wanted the rights for free. VS was offering up 9 digits. Which deal would you take if you were an owner? At least 19 of the 30 agreed that VS was the better choice. Get over it.

EDIT: I wanted to ask why do people think ESPN was such a great promoter in the first place? It's not like the NHL was soaring into the national landscape while being on that station. It's not like ESPN went out of their way to promote the NHL. The ratings, per capita are the same or even better with VS. Sure, there aren't as many subscribers but it's a new channel, we have to have some foresight here; something I hear people shouting for from the owners and the league over and over again.

And why do people care really? Hockey is such a niche sport that it's asinine to think that Joe Rodriguez in New Mexico is suddenly going to become a hockey fan because he has ESPN and he's too lazy to turn the station when an NHL game pops up. ESPN didn't do squat for growing the sport. At least VS is treating it like the wonderful sport it is and not the ugly stepchild that ESPN branded it.

Stop making sense!!!

at the end of ESPN's tenure it was still behind to poker and area football but for some reason everybody thinks they'll magically fix that. Hockey on ESPN had 2 tenures of at least 15 years.

ESPN kicked NHL 2nite to a later time slot as soon as they got partial rights to the NBA in order to show, well NBA 2nite.

ESPN would take hockey off the air completely for a week at this time of the year b/c of all the basketball tournements. Just when the season is getting good and teams are battleing for PO spots - poof, no NHL for a week - rediculous

People complain about VS; east coast bias, well , ESPN had the same east coast bias.

VS has for a while now been showing just as many games as ESPN did in their last year - fact.

Depsite all the talk there was very little mention of the sport on shows like PTI or Around the Horn, unless of course you had a black eye incident like a cheapshot. I heard alot of people make fun of hockey on ESPN.

In ESPN's last year of coverage they tried "Wednesday night hockey" in a vain attempt to always have it on consistently like HNIC but that didn't work as well b/c hockey is a niche sport in the US

It's funny to see people bash VS for showing bullriding when I can watch it on ESPN as well.

[schulzte 18]

1. I don't know why so many people want to move to the Eastern Conference, other than so all the games are at 7:00. The Wings are in a GREAT division from a rivalry standpoint; IF the Blackhawks and Blues can get their act together. The Blues are doing just that, and will challenge for a Stanley Cup by 2009. The Blackhawks will not be terrible forever. Moving to the East, you are giving up a budding rivalry (Nashville), and two long standing rivalries which will be reborne as the opponents improve (Chicago and St. Louis). And don't dismiss St. Louis. They aren't orginal six, but they are orginal 12 with a forty year history. Despite the lack of a Stanley Cup, they are one of the most successful hockey franchises in the NHL, regardless of the two years of difficulty they've had. Don't be shortsighted about this arguement about moving back to the East. The problem is we don't see the Eastern teams enough. This can be remediated by playing each Eastern team twice a year, hosting each Eastern team once a year.

Remember, Detroit is the farthest East Western team and would be the farthest West Eastern team if a change were to be made. They are on the line between East and West, so its not as if its an obvious decision. Somebody has to be in the West, and Detroit hasn't exactly had bad luck being in the West either.

2. Regarding the TV deal. This shouldn't be an ESPN vs. Versus arguement. The NHL isn't going back to ESPN until ratings and interest improve. There are how many other channels that the NHL could go to besides Versus though. The USA idea was great, and there are five or six other channels that would be better than Versus.

[auxlepli 17]

Remember, Detroit is the farthest East Western team and would be the farthest West Eastern team if a change were to be made. They are on the line between East and West, so its not as if its an obvious decision. Somebody has to be in the West, and Detroit hasn't exactly had bad luck being in the West either.

2. Regarding the TV deal. This shouldn't be an ESPN vs. Versus arguement. The NHL isn't going back to ESPN until ratings and interest improve. There are how many other channels that the NHL could go to besides Versus though. The USA idea was great, and there are five or six other channels that would be better than Versus.

I agree with you on both counts, except Columbus is east of Detroit.