Todd Bertuzzi offered $350,000 last year...

[Salviaman 104]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3096818

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Moore's lawyer also alleges that Bertuzzi refused to even shake his hand when they met to discuss settlement.

[Echolalia 2,961]

such drama.

[Salviaman 104]

Moore's lawyer also alleges that Bertuzzi refused to even shake his hand when they met to discuss settlement.

Hmmmm he might as well have spit in his face and slapped him right after that. What disrespect

[OsGOD 3]

Moore's lawyer also alleges that Bertuzzi refused to even shake his hand when they met to discuss settlement.

Yeah i wouldn't shake his laywers hand either

And if was not shaking Moore's... i guess it all boils down to whether you think it was the punch or the pile up that broke the lads neck....

I am guessing with that offer Bert feels the other 6 or 7 morons who jumped on top of the hurt Moore and continued to boyishly fight on top of his broken body should also have to open their wallets... its a fair assesment towards that offer

Edited November 6, 2007 by OsGOD

[edicius 3,269]

And if was not shaking Moore's... i guess it all boils down to whether you think it was the punch or the pile up that broke the lads neck....

I am guessing with that offer Bert feels the other 6 or 7 morons who jumped on top of the hurt Moore and continued to boyishly fight on top of his broken body should also have to open their wallets... its a fair assesment towards that offer

I'll agree with that. I still maintain that it wasn't Bertuzzi that caused Moore's injury, but the resulting pile-up.

[ben_usmc 253]

I don't care one way or the other, live by the sword die by the sword

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

As I've said before, if a guy gets a broken neck on a play and the two potential causes are:

a) being suckerpunched from behind at the back of the head from a 6'3" 245 pound hockey player

b) having 3 guys pile on your body

I'm gonna go with a).

Huge guys pile on each other all the time in the NFL, yet rarely is there a broken neck. Not to mention hockey players piling on each other when they celebrate winning the Cup. Again, no broken necks.

I can understand being a fan of Bertuzzi in spite of the Moore incident, but it was the punch.

It was the punch.

It was the punch.

And even if you still want to believe it was the pileup, Moore was unconcious during the pileup because Bertuzzi suckerpunched him from behind. Bertuzzi was directly and fully responsible for Moore's injury.

And if was not shaking Moore's... i guess it all boils down to whether you think it was the punch or the pile up that broke the lads neck....

I am guessing with that offer Bert feels the other 6 or 7 morons who jumped on top of the hurt Moore and continued to boyishly fight on top of his broken body should also have to open their wallets... its a fair assesment towards that offer

There weren't 6 or 7 morons. Only one moron - Bertuzzi. And two other guys (really it looks like only one had any weight on the pile) on top of Moore. Everyone else was still on their skates pulling people off.

And if the punch didn't break his neck, then how were they piling on his "broken body?" Because you're saying it wasn't broken at that point, right?

Bertuzzi breaking Moore's neck with a suckerpunch

Edited November 6, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[BeeRYCE 2]

As I've said before, if a guy gets a broken neck on a play and the two potential causes are:

a) being suckerpunched from behind at the back of the head from a 6'3" 245 pound hockey player

b) having 3 guys pile on your body

I'm gonna go with a).

Huge guys pile on each other all the time in the NFL, yet rarely is there a broken neck. Not to mention hockey players piling on each other when they celebrate winning the Cup. Again, no broken necks.

I can understand being a fan of Bertuzzi in spite of the Moore incident, but it was the punch.

It was the punch.

It was the punch.

And even if you still want to believe it was the pileup, Moore was unconcious during the pileup because Bertuzzi suckerpunched him from behind. Bertuzzi was directly and fully responsible for Moore's injury.

There weren't 6 or 7 morons. Only one moron - Bertuzzi. And two other guys (really it looks like only one had any weight on the pile) on top of Moore. Everyone else was still on their skates pulling people off.

And if the punch didn't break his neck, then how were they piling on his "broken body?" Because you're saying it wasn't broken at that point, right?

Bertuzzi breaking Moore's neck with a suckerpunch

While it is fair to say Bertuzzi was responsible for the broken neck, I don't think he was entirely responsible. Bertuzzi's punch knocked him out, causing him to be dead weight thus when guys fall on him, he is unable to protect himself in anyway. Usually dog piles in football are different, the guy getting piled on usually is aware and able to protect themselves whether its using the arms to protect them or not. Not to mention landing on grass/turf with a bigger helmet is alot more safer than landing on ice with a less protected helmet.

A punch in the head usually doesnt break one's neck unless it was Mike Tyson punching an old lady. Bertuzzi's punch maybe caused him a concussion and what not, but I think it was in fact the pile up that did more damage.

[Rob the Badger 0]

Don't think it was the actual punch that broke the vertebrae in Moore's neck as much as it was Bert falling atop of an unconscious Moore, & driving his head onto the ice

I agree. I don't think that the punh caused the damage, I think that riding the unconscious victim into the ice head first is what did it. The pile on afterwards could have only made matters worse.

[OsGOD 3]

A punch in the head usually doesnt break one's neck unless it was Mike Tyson punching an old lady. Bertuzzi's punch maybe caused him a concussion and what not, but I think it was in fact the pile up that did more damage.

Thank you

[eva unit zero 271]

It was not the punch, and it was not the pileup.

Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck when he drove an unconscious Moore's head into the ice. Start at 1:32 in the clip Harold posted.

Take a look at how Moore's neck gives from the moment Bertuzzi punches him. Look at the position Moore's head and neck are in when he hits the ice. Moore's neck was broken before any other players were involved.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

While it is fair to say Bertuzzi was responsible for the broken neck, I don't think he was entirely responsible. Bertuzzi's punch knocked him out, causing him to be dead weight thus when guys fall on him, he is unable to protect himself in anyway. Usually dog piles in football are different, the guy getting piled on usually is aware and able to protect themselves whether its using the arms to protect them or not. Not to mention landing on grass/turf with a bigger helmet is alot more safer than landing on ice with a less protected helmet.

A punch in the head usually doesnt break one's neck unless it was Mike Tyson punching an old lady. Bertuzzi's punch maybe caused him a concussion and what not, but I think it was in fact the pile up that did more damage.

You don't have to be Mike Tyson when the guy you're punching has no idea it's coming. (Which, for the record Todd Bertuzzi is 5 inches taller and 10 to 15 lbs heavier than Tyson)

Seriously, you're claiming that a punch to the back of the head was less likely to have broken Moore's neck than having three guys pile on his body?

And again, even for those who want to cling to the fallacy that three guys piling on Moore's body somehow resulted in a broken neck, it is still 100% Bertuzzi's fault.

Had he not suckerpunched Moore from behind, Moore would not have lost consciousness and fallen face first onto the ice with Bertuzzi on his back, had his face driven to the ice by Bertuzzi, and had a couple other guys pile on top of his unconscious body.

Whichever of those events broke his neck, it was still completely and totally Bertuzzi's fault.

Thank you

so let me get this straight. Your reasoning is that a punch to the back of the head doesn't usually break someone's neck, but three guys piling on a guy's body does?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Don't think it was the actual punch that broke the vertebrae in Moore's neck as much as it was Bert falling atop of an unconscious Moore, & driving his head onto the ice

DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner!

As for those who think 385K is a slap in the face. It's only a slap in the face if you've already concluded that 15 million is a fair and reasonable request from the Moore camp. Personally, I don't see Mr. Moore having done anything to warrant 15 biggies. He was barely an NHLer to begin with IMO and not likely to be more than a 3rd/4th line guy. Those guys aren't getting too many multi-million dollar deals anymore as the league is full of players like that.

As for shaking hands. It's customary but not exactly something you want to do when faced with the person and the lawyer who are trying to take away 15 million dollars from you. And let's face it, Bert isn't exactly Bill Gates here. How much has he made the past few years after taxes?

If you were Bertuzzi and you felt like Moore and his lawyer were being ridiculous in their demands of 15 mil, would you be so eager to shake their hands while they're trying to shake you down? I don't think so people.

This is a negotiation. Each side starts at some extreme and they'll work their way towards a settlement. I don't know anybody in their right mind who doesn't haggle when there are attorney's involved and millions of dollars. Bert's camp is letting the Moore camp know they're in for a battle on the money issue as they should when trying to protect one's own interests.

You don't have to be Mike Tyson when the guy you're punching has no idea it's coming. (Which, for the record Todd Bertuzzi is 5 inches taller and 10 to 15 lbs heavier than Tyson)

Seriously, you're claiming that a punch to the back of the head was less likely to have broken Moore's neck than having three guys pile on his body?

And again, even for those who want to cling to the fallacy that three guys piling on Moore's body somehow resulted in a broken neck, it is still 100% Bertuzzi's fault.

Had he not suckerpunched Moore from behind, Moore would not have lost consciousness and fallen face first onto the ice with Bertuzzi on his back, had his face driven to the ice by Bertuzzi, and had a couple other guys pile on top of his unconscious body.

Whichever of those events broke his neck, it was still completely and totally Bertuzzi's fault.

so let me get this straight. Your reasoning is that a punch to the back of the head doesn't usually break someone's neck, but three guys piling on a guy's body does?

Yes, Harold, the entire thing is Bertuzzi's fault. But the liklihood that that punch actually broke the vertebrae isn't very good. I'm no scientist, just somebody who has been trained to take and give punches and has done so for many years. I find it very unlikely that the punch did the damage. The more I think about it though, part of me thinks the real damage was done a split second before the pile up. Just watching the video, that instant that the side of his face/neck hits the ice, all that downward force and impact placed right on his neck, that instant probably caused the break IMO.

[OsGOD 3]

so let me get this straight. Your reasoning is that a punch to the back of the head doesn't usually break someone's neck, but three guys piling on a guy's body does?

I have seen more people get more seriously hurt by groups of people jumping on them than a single punch to the back of the head. Sticks to the head, Cross checks to the throats, hell even faces first being driven into the end boards havn't broken backs... how can i logically conclude that a punch to the back of the head could do this. Perhaps during a freak accident does it break a neck... but then it would be a freak accident.

Until someone can prove without a reasonable doubt at what point Mr. Moore's neck snapped.. your views carry the same weight as mine.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The article also mentions that last year Bert's lawyer made an informal offer to settle for $1 million, which Moore's lawyer declined.

$15 mill is too steep for Moore since he was a marginal NHLer, and $350,000 is nothing to cough at. Still, when you've already offered a mill and that was turned down during negotiations, then you get together and offer $350,000, you're wasting everybody's time.

Bert's lawyer should've just called and said "F--- you!" It would have been more direct and saved everyone some time.

As for Bert not shaking hands. Yes it's a hard nose negotiation, but please, they're all adults. You dont' have to like a guy to at least shake his hand when you're meeting. Moore's lawyer is doing his job, just like Bert's is.

Edited November 6, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[OsGOD 3]

$15 mill is too steep for Moore since he was a marginal NHLer, and $350,000 is nothing to cough at. Still, when you've already offered a mill and that was turned down during negotiations, then you get together and offer $350,000, you're wasting everybody's time.

Thats seems just like Moneybag Mikes way of negotating... offer high and close VERY LOW.

Moore's camp should cut their losses and accept that offer... Deal or NO deal style... they turned down the cool Million... their bad! Did they really expect the banker to make a HIGHER OFFER??? dumb logic...

Edited November 6, 2007 by OsGOD

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I have seen more people get more seriously hurt by groups of people jumping on them than a single punch to the back of the head. Sticks to the head, Cross checks to the throats, hell even faces first being driven into the end boards havn't broken backs... how can i logically conclude that a punch to the back of the head could do this. Perhaps during a freak accident does it break a neck... but then it would be a freak accident.

Until someone can prove without a reasonable doubt at what point Mr. Moore's neck snapped.. your views carry the same weight as mine.

hey, whatever lets you sleep at night and remain a Bertuzzi fan.

Can you name some examples where a healthy pro athlete's neck was broken by having a few guys fall on them? Because it wasn't a group of people. It was three guys, max.

Of course it's pretty much impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the exact moment when Moore's neck broke. But it's laughable that people can say with a straight face that it was three players falling on him that did it, and not the suckerpunch to the back of the head. Even if it didn't happen with the punch, the next likely candidate would be Bertuzzi driving Moore's face to the ice while he was unconcious. I can't figure out what kind of physics would have to be involved from guys laying on top of Moore ending up breaking his neck.

Like I've said, guys get piled on all the time. No broken necks. if 20 guys piling on each other on the ice after winning a championship hasn't resulted in one neck or even back injury, I find it hard to believe that three guys laying on Moore did it.

And as I mentioned, no matter which of the actions caused it, it's still 100% Bertuzzi's fault. If he doesn't cheapshot Moore from behind, none of this happens.

[Turkey 0]

I think what they expect is that a court, which will not share many hockey fans' odd willingness to look the other way concerning wanton acts of violence, will find that Bert owes more than that.

If they thought they wouldn't do better in court, they'd take a deal. Clearly, they feel they will do better in court.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Thats seems just like Moneybag Mikes way of negotating... offer high and close VERY LOW.

Moore's camp should cut their losses and accept that offer... Deal or NO deal style... they turned down the cool Million... their bad! Did they really expect the banker to make a HIGHER OFFER??? dumb logic...

actually it's pretty reasonable logic in a negotiation. If they're thinking in the ballpark of $15 million, and they get offered one million and turn it down. The next step is often for each side to try and find a middle ground.

It's how most negotiations work. to call them together and offer $350,000 when they've already turned down a million (rightly or wrong) is a joke. It's a total waste of time and an intentional insult. Like I said, they should've just called and said F you.

[eva unit zero 271]

The article also mentions that last year Bert's lawyer made an informal offer to settle for $1 million, which Moore's lawyer declined.

$15 mill is too steep for Moore since he was a marginal NHLer, and $350,000 is nothing to cough at. Still, when you've already offered a mill and that was turned down during negotiations, then you get together and offer $350,000, you're wasting everybody's time.

Bert's lawyer should've just called and said "F--- you!" It would have been more direct and saved everyone some time.

As for Bert not shaking hands. Yes it's a hard nose negotiation, but please, they're all adults. You dont' have to like a guy to at least shake his hand when you're meeting. Moore's lawyer is doing his job, just like Bert's is.

Moore was 26 at the time, and was an NHL regular. if you figure he plays another ten years averaging just above the league minimum, he's at 7.5m career earnings. Certainly 15m is more than Moore would likely have earned in the NHL. However, one must also consider that Moore suffered severe physical and psychological trauma. He spent his life playing hockey, and now, at the age of 26, he has been injured so severely he can no longer play hockey.

Ultimately, a fair settlement would probably be somewhere between 7-10m. None of this insulting BS Bertuzzi's side is pushing out.

[Echolalia 2,961]

All this really makes me wonder what would've happened if Moore actually stood up and fought Bertuzzi the 200 times he confronted him.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Moore was 26 at the time, and was an NHL regular. if you figure he plays another ten years averaging just above the league minimum, he's at 7.5m career earnings. Certainly 15m is more than Moore would likely have earned in the NHL. However, one must also consider that Moore suffered severe physical and psychological trauma. He spent his life playing hockey, and now, at the age of 26, he has been injured so severely he can no longer play hockey.

Ultimately, a fair settlement would probably be somewhere between 7-10m. None of this insulting BS Bertuzzi's side is pushing out.

The low side of that sounds reasonable to me.

Maybe you should arbitrate Eva. Let's get this deal done and behind us!

All this really makes me wonder what would've happened if Moore actually stood up and fought Bertuzzi the 200 times he confronted him.

Moore already fought that game. Just because Bertuzzi didn't like the outcome doesn't mean Moore has to take on every guy on the team to be "fair."

People also forget that the teams had played since the Naslund hit.

[Guest jaytan]

I wouldn't have shaken the hand of some ambulence-chasing bastard who was trying to unfairly squeeze $15 million out of my pocket. Would you? Hell, Bert probably should just fight this thing out in court. He'd probably win.

[Opie 308]

I agree with Eva,

He had at least 10 years left, and suffered mental and physical trauma, I say he deserves around 10 mil. Which is why his attorney asked for 15. Then after negotiations it would be around that 8-12 mil range which I think is fair considering his earning potential before that.

Also think of the what broke his neck this way:

If I fire a gun at a target in the woods, the bullet hits a tree and ricochets hitting an innocent person walking their dog, it paralyzes them. Am I at fault for pulling the trigger, yes. Even though my intent was not to hurt some one, that is what happened.

Another example:

I run a red light, hit a car into oncoming traffic, the people in the car get seriously injured, am I at fault or the driver of the car that hit them last?

Bert's intentions were to pick a fight with the guy, Moore chickened out. That does not give Bert the right to punch him in the back of the head and then tackle him.

When watching the video it looks like Moore's neck breaks at one of two points, when his head hits the ice, or when Bert lands on him. Either way it is still the fault of Bert. Now lets say, it is not broken but he is pinned under the weight of Bert, then the pig pile happens. Due to the fact that Bert knocked Moore out putting him in a position where he could not protect himself, Bert is still to blame.

Osgod:

hell even faces first being driven into the end boards havn't broken backs

You seriously have never seen a guy drilled into the boards and have their neck broken?

See the following:

Travis Roy!!!

I have seen it happen to two kids from my high school. It happens a hell of a lot more often than people jumping on each other causing it does.

Football games they must have 15-20 big piles a game. People celebrating after winning a game in any sport.

Bert is at fault because his actions caused the injury.