Complicated Osgood Question

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree. However, being the 5th/6th guy down on the totem pole, it'd be nice to see a Vezina in their or a Conn Smyth or something.

That's what burns me up about 96...he should have won the Vezina in 96.

But to be fair, Osgood played his best seasons when one guy kept winning it. From 94 to 2001, Carey won once when Osgood should have, Kolzig won once when Hasek only played 35 games but posted better numbers, and Hasek won six times.

Rarely has there been a situation where a goaltender has dominated the position the way Hasek has, and unfortunately that hurts Osgood as much as it helps Hasek.

Patrick Roy won 3 of 8 between his rookie year and Hasek's first win.

The last guy to be named a first-team All-Star three times in a row before Hasek? Ken Dryden. Before Dryden, you have to go back to Sawchuk,and before him Durnan is the only other goaltender to do it. ANd then consider that Hasek didn't just get named best three in a row, he was named best five of six and six of eight. In the 18 seasons since 1988, the following players have been named to the first team:

Roy (four times), Brodeur (three times) Belfour (twice), Hasek (six times), Carey, Kolzig, Kiprusoff.

The first four are all basically locks for the Hall. Osgood should have been named in 1996, and has been a top ten goaltender several times in his career.

Looking at a list of inducted goaltenders, it's basically close to ten guys per generation. So far, the current generation has seen Roy, Smith and Fuhr inducted. Brodeur, Hasek, and Belfour are locks as well. That leaves four more selections for this generation to stick with the same kind of crop. The likely candidates are guys like Barrasso, Osgood, Vanbiesbrouck, Moog, Joseph, Richter, Hextall, maybe a couple others. Osgood is in the top half of that group.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Until they let Dino Ciccarelli in, they will forever be to me nothing but a bunch of ******* hacks who let personal s***, holier than thou attitudes and ridiculous ideas such as All-Star game appearances affect their vote.

I hope you know you're including Scotty Bowman in that rant. Bowman's on the selection commity and he has always hated Dino. I think the year Scotty is off of it is the year Dino gets in.

Looking at a list of inducted goaltenders, it's basically close to ten guys per generation. So far, the current generation has seen Roy, Smith and Fuhr inducted. Brodeur, Hasek, and Belfour are locks as well. That leaves four more selections for this generation to stick with the same kind of crop. The likely candidates are guys like Barrasso, Osgood, Vanbiesbrouck, Moog, Joseph, Richter, Hextall, maybe a couple others. Osgood is in the top half of that group.

Funny you should mention Moog, since he's kind of like an Osgood. Racking up wins on the top teams of his era, but being outshined by the other goalies he was teamed with (Fuhr).

I'll admit, of that list Osgood has the best chance. However, I highly doubt any one of those goalies will be in the hall of fame. Maybe Richter, but that'd be more based on rewarding American fans and the Rangers, and not based on skill. In my opinion Cujo doesn't deserve to be in, but I've heard him discussed as a future hall of famer on numerous occasions, so who knows. One player you left off that has a shot at getting in is Vernon (Conn Smyth, Jennings, 2 cups as a starter, 10th all time wins). The thing is, there is a batch of goalies in the NHL right now that just keep compiling monster stats, and more than likely they will be getting into the hall over the Barrassos and Osgoods. I mean, Giguere has almost accomplished as much, or more than most anyone you mentioned (conn smyth in a losing effort, a cup win, already has 160 wins). Kiprusoff (Vezina, in contention for Hart trophy, already has 24 shutouts + 126 wins). and don't forget your Luongos, Lundqvists, etc... Sure, none of these guys will be hall of famers if they retired today (or even in the next 4-5 years).. but they could easily make people forget about the lesser goalies of the past 2 decades.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I hope you know you're including Scotty Bowman in that rant. Bowman's on the selection commity and he has always hated Dino. I think the year Scotty is off of it is the year Dino gets in.

Funny you should mention Moog, since he's kind of like an Osgood. Racking up wins on the top teams of his era, but being outshined by the other goalies he was teamed with (Fuhr).

I'll admit, of that list Osgood has the best chance. However, I highly doubt any one of those goalies will be in the hall of fame. Maybe Richter, but that'd be more based on rewarding American fans and the Rangers, and not based on skill. In my opinion Cujo doesn't deserve to be in, but I've heard him discussed as a future hall of famer on numerous occasions, so who knows. One player you left off that has a shot at getting in is Vernon (Conn Smyth, Jennings, 2 cups as a starter, 10th all time wins). The thing is, there is a batch of goalies in the NHL right now that just keep compiling monster stats, and more than likely they will be getting into the hall over the Barrassos and Osgoods. I mean, Giguere has almost accomplished as much, or more than most anyone you mentioned (conn smyth in a losing effort, a cup win, already has 160 wins). Kiprusoff (Vezina, in contention for Hart trophy, already has 24 shutouts + 126 wins). and don't forget your Luongos, Lundqvists, etc... Sure, none of these guys will be hall of famers if they retired today (or even in the next 4-5 years).. but they could easily make people forget about the lesser goalies of the past 2 decades.

I know Scotty is on there. It's called a rant.

[eva unit zero 271]

I hope you know you're including Scotty Bowman in that rant. Bowman's on the selection commity and he has always hated Dino. I think the year Scotty is off of it is the year Dino gets in.

Funny you should mention Moog, since he's kind of like an Osgood. Racking up wins on the top teams of his era, but being outshined by the other goalies he was teamed with (Fuhr).

I'll admit, of that list Osgood has the best chance. However, I highly doubt any one of those goalies will be in the hall of fame. Maybe Richter, but that'd be more based on rewarding American fans and the Rangers, and not based on skill. In my opinion Cujo doesn't deserve to be in, but I've heard him discussed as a future hall of famer on numerous occasions, so who knows. One player you left off that has a shot at getting in is Vernon (Conn Smyth, Jennings, 2 cups as a starter, 10th all time wins). The thing is, there is a batch of goalies in the NHL right now that just keep compiling monster stats, and more than likely they will be getting into the hall over the Barrassos and Osgoods. I mean, Giguere has almost accomplished as much, or more than most anyone you mentioned (conn smyth in a losing effort, a cup win, already has 160 wins). Kiprusoff (Vezina, in contention for Hart trophy, already has 24 shutouts + 126 wins). and don't forget your Luongos, Lundqvists, etc... Sure, none of these guys will be hall of famers if they retired today (or even in the next 4-5 years).. but they could easily make people forget about the lesser goalies of the past 2 decades.

Guys like Luongo, Lundqvist, etc are guys I would consider in the next 'generation' of goaltenders as far as the 'ten per generation' thing I was talking about.

You're right, I should have included Vernon. But with or without Vernon in that list, Osgood is good enough to make it. Giguere has the Conn Smythe and the Cup win, but he is already 30 and only has 160 wins. By comparison, Osgood had over 250 wins at age 30. Ken Dryden had only 191 wins at age 30, but he had also backstopped the Canadiens to four Cups at that point and been named a First Team All-Star three times, plus won a Conn Smythe. Giguere has never been a Vezina finalist...Osgood was one in his third season. Giggy has a lot longer to go to become a hall of famer than Ozzie does.

[BeeRYCE 2]

He may get in the HOF, but there will be a handful of others getting in before him with all do respect.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Guys like Luongo, Lundqvist, etc are guys I would consider in the next 'generation' of goaltenders as far as the 'ten per generation' thing I was talking about.

You're right, I should have included Vernon. But with or without Vernon in that list, Osgood is good enough to make it. Giguere has the Conn Smythe and the Cup win, but he is already 30 and only has 160 wins. By comparison, Osgood had over 250 wins at age 30. Ken Dryden had only 191 wins at age 30, but he had also backstopped the Canadiens to four Cups at that point and been named a First Team All-Star three times, plus won a Conn Smythe. Giguere has never been a Vezina finalist...Osgood was one in his third season. Giggy has a lot longer to go to become a hall of famer than Ozzie does.

It's tough to support this 10 per generation claim because I would argue that Fuhr and Osgood are of different generation. Anyways, I don't see the hall of fame letting Osgood in on the basis that they don't have enough goalies in the hall from our era.

[eva unit zero 271]

It's tough to support this 10 per generation claim because I would argue that Fuhr and Osgood are of different generation. Anyways, I don't see the hall of fame letting Osgood in on the basis that they don't have enough goalies in the hall from our era.

I was more saying that over each 20-25 year period it's generally about ten goaltenders who get inducted from said period. Osgood is one of the ten best goaltenders from his era, meaning that if they stick to the same kind of pattern, he should end up in the Hall.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I was more saying that over each 20-25 year period it's generally about ten goaltenders who get inducted from said period. Osgood is one of the ten best goaltenders from his era, meaning that if they stick to the same kind of pattern, he should end up in the Hall.

Yea, but I would expect a dropoff due to the extreme crappyness of goaltending in the 80s and early 90s. Based on GAA and Save% Fuhr has no place in the hall of fame. I mean the man's 2 best save percentages were .901 and .903 (and his only two above 90% might I add). Yea, it's not his fault that noone on the Oilers have ever heard the term defence before, but I'm just saying, it's not an era youngsters will be looking to for great goaltending. Osgood comes at an age of resurgence for goaltending and defence, and it will be interesting to see what the Hall of Fame does. I think it can go one of two routs. 1. let in the elite top of the top goalies (Hasek, Belfour, Broduer, Roy) and leave out those that are on the border, or 2. it can open the flood gates and let in a number of the guys on your list... I think if they let in Osgood they'd have to let in Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Joseph, Richter, Vernon.. and some of these other guys who really didn't define excelence in their position. I mean, honestly, what seperates Osgood from these other guys besides the quality of team he was on? I can't possibly see how the Hall of fame is going to treat this, for all I know Carey could get in and Hasek could be snuffed, but I've always felt that a Hall of Fame is for those that truly change the way the game is played or really define excelence in some manner. I see Osgood as a amazing guy/player, but I just don't see the game of Hockey being very different if he never laced up the skates.

Edited November 11, 2007 by RedWings Gone Wild

[eva unit zero 271]

I think if they let in Osgood they'd have to let in Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Joseph, Richter, Vernon.. and some of these other guys who really didn't define excelence in their position. I mean, honestly, what seperates Fuhr from these other guys besides the quality of team he was on?

I actually think Richter falls just short of that group of guys. Richter was never a Vezina contender; all the other guys (Osgood included) were at the very least named to the second All-Star team.

How I would rank the top ten goalies of the post 1980 generation? Active goalies in italics.

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Patrick Roy

3) Dominik Hasek

4) Billy Smith

5) Ed Belfour

6) Grant Fuhr

7) Chris Osgood

8) Curtis Joseph

9) Tom Barrasso

10) Mike Vernon

Edited November 12, 2007 by eva unit zero

[interminded 1]

I actually think Richter falls just short of that group of guys. Richter was never a Vezina contender; all the other guys (Osgood included) were at the very least named to the second All-Star team.

How I would rank the top ten goalies of the post 1980 generation? Active goalies in italics.

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Patrick Roy

3) Dominik Hasek

4) Billy Smith

5) Ed Belfour

6) Grant Fuhr

7) Chris Osgood

8) Curtis Joseph

9) Tom Barrasso

10) Mike Vernon

Nice list, but I would put Mike Richter on it.

First of all he was a Vezina contender for several years, finishing 3rd and 5th once, he was named to the All-Star team in 92, 94 and 2000(being the MVP in 94 even !), he won the Stanley Cup with the Rangers in 94, won a Olympic silver medal, won 300 NHL games and holds numerous franchise records for the Rangers.

But most important of all, he did his job for many many years very good on a mediocre (at best) team in New York.

Besides that, he is a nice and likeable guy and a true ambassador for NHL hockey.

We can't say the same about Ed Belfour, can we ?

As much as I love Curtis Joseph as a human being and an athlete... he didn;t win much.

So he's of my TOP-10 too.

I replaced him with Tommy Salo, who did nothing short of a little miracle in Edmonton for years.

And internationally he ws Sweden's mainstay for almost ten years.

Unfortunately he wasn't the same after the infamous Salt Like City game against Belarus.

So my list would be like this:

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Patrick Roy

3) Dominik Hasek

4) Billy Smith

5) Chris Osgood

6) Grant Fuhr

7) Mike Richter

8) Tom Barrasso

9) Mike Vernon

10) Tommy Salo

[toby91_ca 620]

As much as I love Curtis Joseph as a human being and an athlete... he didn;t win much.

Ummm.....huh? Joseph has won 446 games, placing him 5th on the all-time list, only 1 behind Sawchuk, who sits in 4th.

You can probably make other arguments against Joseph, but not winning much, I'm guessing, wouldn't be one of them.

[interminded 1]

Ummm.....huh? Joseph has won 446 games, placing him 5th on the all-time list, only 1 behind Sawchuk, who sits in 4th.

You can probably make other arguments against Joseph, but not winning much, I'm guessing, wouldn't be one of them.

No no, I mean winning in the sence that he didn't win a Cup or an individual award.

446 wins is an incredible feat, but he hasn't been in a Stanley Cup final once.

[toby91_ca 620]

No no, I mean winning in the sence that he didn't win a Cup or an individual award.

446 wins is an incredible feat, but he hasn't been in a Stanley Cup final once.

Gotcha....though, he did play great in the playoffs, most years that I saw.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Nice list, but I would put Mike Richter on it.

First of all he was a Vezina contender for several years, finishing 3rd and 5th once, he was named to the All-Star team in 92, 94 and 2000(being the MVP in 94 even !), he won the Stanley Cup with the Rangers in 94, won a Olympic silver medal, won 300 NHL games and holds numerous franchise records for the Rangers.

But most important of all, he did his job for many many years very good on a mediocre (at best) team in New York.

Besides that, he is a nice and likeable guy and a true ambassador for NHL hockey.

We can't say the same about Ed Belfour, can we ?

As much as I love Curtis Joseph as a human being and an athlete... he didn;t win much.

So he's of my TOP-10 too.

I replaced him with Tommy Salo, who did nothing short of a little miracle in Edmonton for years.

And internationally he ws Sweden's mainstay for almost ten years.

Unfortunately he wasn't the same after the infamous Salt Like City game against Belarus.

So my list would be like this:

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Patrick Roy

3) Dominik Hasek

4) Billy Smith

5) Chris Osgood

6) Grant Fuhr

7) Mike Richter

8) Tom Barrasso

9) Mike Vernon

10) Tommy Salo

Hah! You have Osgood ahead of Grant Fuhr? And I thought I was a homer. I know Grant Fuhr played with great players, but so did every elite goalie in league history. That doesn't diminish what he did. And what the hell is Tommy Salo doing on that list? Why don't you put Lalime and Cechmanek on that list while you're at it?

[interminded 1]

Hah! You have Osgood ahead of Grant Fuhr? And I thought I was a homer. I know Grant Fuhr played with great players, but so did every elite goalie in league history. That doesn't diminish what he did. And what the hell is Tommy Salo doing on that list? Why don't you put Lalime and Cechmanek on that list while you're at it?

Well, you don't have to agree of course.

I just think he was an incredibly talented goalie with one of the best glovehands i've seen the last ten years.

Underestimated is the correct word, I guess.

[eva unit zero 271]

Nice list, but I would put Mike Richter on it.

First of all he was a Vezina contender for several years, finishing 3rd and 5th once, he was named to the All-Star team in 92, 94 and 2000(being the MVP in 94 even !), he won the Stanley Cup with the Rangers in 94, won a Olympic silver medal, won 300 NHL games and holds numerous franchise records for the Rangers.

But most important of all, he did his job for many many years very good on a mediocre (at best) team in New York.

Besides that, he is a nice and likeable guy and a true ambassador for NHL hockey.

We can't say the same about Ed Belfour, can we ?

As much as I love Curtis Joseph as a human being and an athlete... he didn;t win much.

So he's of my TOP-10 too.

I replaced him with Tommy Salo, who did nothing short of a little miracle in Edmonton for years.

And internationally he ws Sweden's mainstay for almost ten years.

Unfortunately he wasn't the same after the infamous Salt Like City game against Belarus.

So my list would be like this:

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Patrick Roy

3) Dominik Hasek

4) Billy Smith

5) Chris Osgood

6) Grant Fuhr

7) Mike Richter

8) Tom Barrasso

9) Mike Vernon

10) Tommy Salo

In his career, Richter received one first place vote and two second place votes for Vezina. He was NOT a Vezina contender, ever. Total of 24 points in voting in his career. Joseph finished with better than 20 points three times, including 10 first place votes in 1999.

It's funny that you would rank Salo ahead of Joseph, when Salo succeeded Joseph in Edmonton and did not produce nearly the same kind of results with similar teams. And those weren't even Joseph's best years. Salo should be NOWHERE near this conversation; he opens it up wide open to second-tier guys like Irbe, Kolzig, Ranford, Dafoe, Thibault, and Potvin, among others.

The other guys I wanted to cram onto my list were John Vanbiesbrouck, Andy Moog, Mike Liut, and then maybe guys like Richter and Sean Burke.

[toby91_ca 620]

Well, you don't have to agree of course.

I just think he was an incredibly talented goalie with one of the best glovehands i've seen the last ten years.

Underestimated is the correct word, I guess.

But how on earth can you leave Belfour off your list? Other than the fact that you probably think he is a jerk. Check out his achievements:

Wins - 3rd all-time

Stanley Cup Winner

Calder Trophy Winner

2 time Vezina Winner

4 Time Jennings Winner

Also won the Roger Crozier Award

Plus, he's an 8 time allstar.

[interminded 1]

In his career, Richter received one first place vote and two second place votes for Vezina. He was NOT a Vezina contender, ever. Total of 24 points in voting in his career. Joseph finished with better than 20 points three times, including 10 first place votes in 1999.

It's funny that you would rank Salo ahead of Joseph, when Salo succeeded Joseph in Edmonton and did not produce nearly the same kind of results with similar teams. And those weren't even Joseph's best years. Salo should be NOWHERE near this conversation; he opens it up wide open to second-tier guys like Irbe, Kolzig, Ranford, Dafoe, Thibault, and Potvin, among others.

The other guys I wanted to cram onto my list were John Vanbiesbrouck, Andy Moog, Mike Liut, and then maybe guys like Richter and Sean Burke.

I put Salo ahead of Joseph becuase of his international succes.

But of course .. all my choices are my choices.

You think Salo shouldn't be anywhere near this list, which is fine. I think he should, because the aformentioned reasons.

But how on earth can you leave Belfour off your list? Other than the fact that you probably think he is a jerk. Check out his achievements:

Wins - 3rd all-time

Stanley Cup Winner

Calder Trophy Winner

2 time Vezina Winner

4 Time Jennings Winner

Also won the Roger Crozier Award

Plus, he's an 8 time allstar.

Exaclty, he's a jerk.

And while I know I lists like this should be a pure reflection of their achievements, I tend to go with players / goaltenders who weren't just great athletes but also great personalities.

Hence my choices for Richter, Osgood and Salo.

[toby91_ca 620]

Exaclty, he's a jerk.

And while I know I lists like this should be a pure reflection of their achievements, I tend to go with players / goaltenders who weren't just great athletes but also great personalities.

Hence my choices for Richter, Osgood and Salo.

I think you need to re-visit your list then, because there are a lot of jerks on it.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I put Salo ahead of Joseph becuase of his international succes.

But of course .. all my choices are my choices.

You think Salo shouldn't be anywhere near this list, which is fine. I think he should, because the aformentioned reasons.

Exaclty, he's a jerk.

And while I know I lists like this should be a pure reflection of their achievements, I tend to go with players / goaltenders who weren't just great athletes but also great personalities.

Hence my choices for Richter, Osgood and Salo.

So Patrick Roy wasn't a jerk? Yeah, I know that you can't leave the best off the list, but if you're going to leave off a sure fire hall of famer like Belfour, him being a jerk is hardly the reason to do it. I still don't understand if these are your favorite goalies since 1980, or who you actually think were the best?

[toby91_ca 620]

So Patrick Roy wasn't a jerk?

Exactly, though, he's not even the biggest jerk on the list.

[eva unit zero 271]

Exactly, though, he's not even the biggest jerk on the list.

If anyone gets bumped for personality it's Barrasso. Largely because he's as much a jerk as Roy or Belfour, but not as good a goalie.

[interminded 1]

So Patrick Roy wasn't a jerk? Yeah, I know that you can't leave the best off the list, but if you're going to leave off a sure fire hall of famer like Belfour, him being a jerk is hardly the reason to do it. I still don't understand if these are your favorite goalies since 1980, or who you actually think were the best?

Let's call them my favorite goalies.

Even if they would be my BEST goalies, it still would be very very subjective, because I would think they would be BEST. How can one argue with that ?

I think you need to re-visit your list then, because there are a lot of jerks on it.

A jerk to you is not necessarily a jerk to me.

[toby91_ca 620]

If anyone gets bumped for personality it's Barrasso.

He's on the top of my biggest jerks list.

How can one argue with that ?

A jerk to you is not necessarily a jerk to me.

Stats is always a greater starting point.

I'm not sure how jerk can be interpreted differently, but I guess you have a bit of a point, though, the vast majority of the population thinks that several of the goalies on your list are jerks (I know, this doesn't mean they are).

[interminded 1]

He's on the top of my biggest jerks list.

Stats is always a greater starting point.

I'm not sure how jerk can be interpreted differently, but I guess you have a bit of a point, though, the vast majority of the population thinks that several of the goalies on your list are jerks (I know, this doesn't mean they are).

True, but a aren't there many examples of great athletes (not only in hockey) who achieved so much, but were never really liked by the masses, simply because they were so closed off and seemingly so obsessive in their ambition to achieve their goals that they were generally labeled as arrogant or .. simply a jerk ?

Mind you, I'm not saying Roy, Belfour or however on that list is considered a jerk is just a poor misunderstood goaltender, but a jerk is too simple a word to classify someone.