Datsyuk sagging at Zetterberg's expense

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Actually, the Wings are scoring at a higher rate then last season, 3.23 GPG vs 3.08 last season.

They let in fewer GPG, they won 84.4% of all possibe points compared to 65% or so last year.

Give it up man. The Wings are playing great, and better than the last season average. And noone is sagging or slumping or anything like that. Your original assumption was groundless. Let it go already.

Groundless? Okay.

Let's try some simple...scratch that, we'll call it elementary stat analysis for you. For the 9th time for some of our slower friends here.

Q: If Datsyuk's points per game, goals, shooting percentage and faceoff percentage are all down what would you rather I post?

The facts as they stand, are that statistically most of his numbers are down except for assists. GIVEN THE FACTS, my assumption was this is due in part to him playing on the wing rather than his natural position of center.

Can you explain to me how you can just scoff at my above assumption as being groundless? How is groundless? Show me how its groundless?

Give it up already? Why don't you make me give it up by putting forth some reasonable, fact-based information yourself. Everyone wants to talk about wins and Zetterberg. I posted this fuggin' thread because its about Datsyuk, not Zetterberg. Its about the impact on his personal production in all departments while playing the wing.

The fact that most people here cannot grasp simple concepts is even more frightening than Dats lack of production.

PS: Sibriak, what exactly does points earned, wins and goals allowed have to do with the subject at hand? Have I ever once claimed we weren't playing well or that I was unhappy with how the team was doing? No, I haven't.

The only stat you provided that has any remote relevance to the topic is our goals per game scored. The fact that it is up over last year is very surprising to me considering the amount of 1 goal games we've played and the lack of goal production from Datsyuk.

Again, what the f*** is wrong with people who can't focus on the topic at hand. This is about Datsyuk's goal prodution in relation to playing the wing. Chris Osgood's save percentage, how many wins we have, how many posts Rafalski has hit, what color underwear Robert Lang wears, all that s*** is so not relevant to the topic. Its like the forum is full of a bunch of bad lawyers who slept through law school or spent most of their days daydreaming about something or other. Like the doofus who brought up Jason Spezza and Jason Blake's assist to goal ratios this season. Seriously, WTF does that have to do with what we're talking about here.

I HEREBY STRIKE ALL THE ASININE STATISTICAL BULLs*** PEOPLE HAVE SPEWED OUT HERE THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO DATSYUK AND HIS CURRENT POSITION OF LEFT WING. PLEASE STOP POSTING STATISTICS THAT HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO THE TOPIC. Seriously people, I'm begging you, stop posting meaningless stats because you can't refute any of the stats i've brought up regarding Datsyuk. You know, the subject of the ******* thread.

Edited November 11, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[T.Low 1,011]

Use YOUR reading comprehension skills and change the title of this thread to "Zetterberg leaching off of Datsyuk?"

2007 LGW line of the Year nominee.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Im the dickhead for being rational? Not thrusting Zetterberg into the "best in the league"(which multiple people in this thread and in different threads have mentioned.

Use YOUR reading comprehension skills and change the title of this thread to "Zetterberg leaching off of Datsyuk?"

PS: Please, since you're all high and mighty, explain my the factual flaws with my first post. Theres only around five points that you need to dispute. Oh I am sure you attempted but realized theres nothing to pick a part.

And Harold, I am sure you one of the many that bashed Datsyuk during contract negotiations. But of course, Zetterberg is a "HERO" since he signed into a lengthy bad deal on his end.

The fact that you resulted to name calling on further proves my point that you have nothing to back up your arguments.

Dude, where did you come from and please go back there. Datsyuk is one of my favorite players. I pointed out his production was off because he's on the wing. It isn't a knock on Datsyuk you dumbass. Quite the contrary, I'm actually in agreement with you that Datsyuk's numbers are falling off because he's not at his natural positon, which has been occupied by Zetterberg. Nobody is bashing Datsyuk. I'm trying to make a case for getting Datsyuk back to his natural position so we can see his production in crease.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that you're either very young or not from North America. There's some sort of comprehension/misunderstanding going on here where you think this thread was started to pick on Datsyuk when it was not.

[T.Low 1,011]

Dude, where did you come from and please go back there. Datsyuk is one of my favorite players. I pointed out his production was off because he's on the wing. It isn't a knock on Datsyuk you dumbass. Quite the contrary, I'm actually in agreement with you that Datsyuk's numbers are falling off because he's not at his natural positon, which has been occupied by Zetterberg. Nobody is bashing Datsyuk. I'm trying to make a case for getting Datsyuk back to his natural position so we can see his production in crease.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that you're either very young or not from North America. There's some sort of comprehension/misunderstanding going on here where you think this thread was started to pick on Datsyuk when it was not.

Damn, I was hoping you could respond on my "Talent difference" thread, but I can see you have your hands full over here on your own thread.

[sibiriak 84]

Groundless? Okay.

Let's try some simple...scratch that, we'll call it elementary stat analysis for you. For the 9th time for some of our slower friends here.

Q: If Datsyuk's points per game, goals, shooting percentage and faceoff percentage are all down what would you rather I post?

The facts as they stand, are that statistically most of his numbers are down except for assists. GIVEN THE FACTS, my assumption was this is due in part to him playing on the wing rather than his natural position of center.

Can you explain to me how you can just scoff at my above assumption as being groundless? How is groundless? Show me how its groundless?

Give it up already? Why don't you make me give it up by putting forth some reasonable, fact-based information yourself. Everyone wants to talk about wins and Zetterberg. I posted this fuggin' thread because its about Datsyuk, not Zetterberg. Its about the impact on his personal production in all departments while playing the wing.

The fact that most people here cannot grasp simple concepts is even more frightening than Dats lack of production.

GS+T, the fact that I and many others are trying to get across to you is this. Yes, Datsyuk's GPG faceoffs and shooting% are down compared to last season. But when you watch the games you must see that the stats here are opposite to the truth. Datsyuk is dominating both sides of the pack, and the phenomenal scoring of Zetterberg and Holmstrom is in a large part due to the play of Datsyuk. Yes, he changed his game a bit. But his whole line has become MORE effective because of it. So I don't see any cause for concern. As I said earlier, Datsyuk is scoring less, but both his line and his team are scoring MORE because of it. If Datsyuk was trying to get into a shooting position more and tried to shoot more, insted of working the boards and the corners, pulling the D to himself and dishing off to Zetterberg, who is open in a prime scoring area because of it, Zetterberg would have FEWER goals.

Why would any coach mess with a dominating line? Datsyuk is doing exactly what he ought to be doing. The goals will come. He already hit several posts. There is NO problem with Datsyuk's play whatsoever.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Ok, so Datsyuk's goal scoring is down(Although hes on pace for 90 assists) and Zetterberg's goal scoring has doubled, along with Holmstrom scoring at a higher rate. Why wouldn't Datsyuk's goal scoring go down? You're having unreasonable expectations of a guy, who in his own right, will be top ten in scoring.

Can you comprehend that Zetterberg scored 33 goals last season and no hes on pace for 66? These goals are just supposed to come out of thin air?

Two things...

Datsyuk and Zetterberg have already decided on which position they're going to play.

Datsyuk, while at his unnatrual position is allowing Zetterberg to double his past production.

They're the best line in hockey, theres no reason to switch things up. And really, its not NHL 08. Its not necessary to the playmaker at center. If it works, it works and from what I can see all three players are going to have career years.

The DZH line is one of the few brightspots in this bleak offense, maybe we shouldn't mess around with it, eh?

And I agree with you that we shouldn't mess with it right now. I never said we should switch them up tomorrow. I said, its something we should maybe look at if this continues. Some don't see it as a problem, but I think we're paying datsyuk to do more than just rack up assists. This team needs goal scoring from as many people as it can get.

Here's some food for thought

When's the last time a player scored 66 goals

When's the last time Datsyuk scored 100 points

People sure are falling in love with these projections aren't they.

GS+T, the fact that I and many others are trying to get across to you is this. Yes, Datsyuk's GPG faceoffs and shooting% are down compared to last season. But when you watch the games you must see that the stats here are opposite to the truth. Datsyuk is dominating both sides of the pack, and the phenomenal scoring of Zetterberg and Holmstrom is in a large part due to the play of Datsyuk. Yes, he changed his game a bit. But his whole line has become MORE effective because of it. So I don't see any cause for concern. As I said earlier, Datsyuk is scoring less, but both his line and his team are scoring MORE because of it. If Datsyuk was trying to get into a shooting position more and tried to shoot more, insted of working the boards and the corners, pulling the D to himself and dishing off to Zetterberg, who is open in a prime scoring area because of it, Zetterberg would have FEWER goals.

Why would any coach mess with a dominating line? Datsyuk is doing exactly what he ought to be doing. The goals will come. He already hit several posts. There is NO problem with Datsyuk's play whatsoever.

I'm in 100% agreement with you that Datsyuk is playing fantastic. I have no beef with anybody who says his defensively play is strong, his board work is strong, he's setting up plays, yadda, yadda, yadda. There's not point to get across with me there. I'm not blind.

I just know that you can never have enough guys scoring. I know that Z won't keep up this pace. I know that many guys we thought would step it up havent. I know we lost Lang's production. I know we've bitched all off season for more scoring from the Wing. Given all that, I know that line is playing lights out hockey right now. And i've said a hundred times I hope the continue it and that if we win the cup I don't care if Datsyuk scores 5 goals all year. But let's be realistic here. Does anyone think Zetterberg is gonna bag 60 goals? Do we think Homer is going to get 50? If we're all fine with the idea of Datsyuk having a 10 goal season, we better goddamn well pray that both his linemates hit the 50 goal mark.

Are you so confident that they will? I'm not. And again, all i'm doing is trying to figure out why Dats goal production is down. People keep saying he's a setup man, like i'm ******* stupid and don't know that. But I also know he scored 30 goals, 28 goals and 27 goals the past 3 years. We need him to score unless, as we keep our fingers crossed, Z and Homer are going to both hit 50 goals this year. I'm not holding my breath

[elriqo28 2]

Prove it.

Who is a better centerman? You say Zetterberg, I say Datsyuk.

Who is a better winger? I say without a doubt Zetterberg.

C Zetterberg

LW Datsyuk

=a very strong center with a less effective winger

C Datsyuk

LW Zetterberg

=a very strong center with a very strong winger

that's how I see it.

PS: Eva, please explain how Zetterberg is "far more effective center than Datsyuk is". Those are pretty strong words. "FAR MORE EFFECTIVE"

How so? What are the numbers that are so far more effective. And don't use this season's figures as Dats has been a winger this season. Use prior stats and show me how "far more effective" Zetterberg is over Datsyuk. You make it sound like Zetterberg outclasses Datsyuk easily.

thats why you arent coach and nobody cares what you think

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

thats why you arent coach and nobody cares what you think

Oh, damn, that just hurt so bad. I mean cut me to the bone why don't you. I think i'm going to report you to the moderators as that's just the worst kind of personal attack, a really low blow there. You really put me in my place.

You know, if you have anything at all constructive to say, keep it to yourself because i'm sure it'll only bring down the collective IQ of the community whilst they try to figure out WTF you're talking about.

If you're going to come at me, bring your A game at least. I'm insulted that you'd chime in with something that would only bother me if I was oh....say, 13 years old. Come correct or don't come at all, savvy! (I steal pirate talk from OsGod).

Keep it ganster homie!

When was the last time a Red Wing led the league for for 13 straight games?

And I don't think its a stretch to suggest that Datsyuk will hit double digits this season.

The only real change that I think to be made is flipping Lidstrom and Rafalski on the PP.

13 games, probably not in 50 years

Dats hitting double digits: Sure, he's got a very likely shot. Although 10 is double digits and 10 ain't nowhere near the 25-30 i'd like to see. Double digits is pretty open ended.

Changing Nick and Rafalski? They seem to switch on their own pretty effectively. Although it does seem like it'd save some setup time if they were already moved over to the opposite position.

[This Is Bida 0]

Who wants to mess with a good thing, right? I know, but despite how well Datsyuk is playing, its not good that he has only 2 goals in 16 games this season. I don't care if he racks up 90 assists, he's on pace for a 10 goal season.

Why is Datsyuk not the Center on that line and Zetterberg the Left Winger?

Not only are Datsyuk's goals way down, his faceoff win percentage is sagging as well. I'm inclined to believe that alot of that has to do with the fact that he's not taking as many faceoffs as a natural centerman should and therefore he's losing more than he's accustomed to.

Maybe i'm nuts but IMO Datsyuk is a better natural centerman and Zetterberg is a better natural winger. Watching Dats play left wing like its a centerman's position just doesn't look right to me. And his numbers are suffering because of it.

Don't get me wrong, Its alll good that Z is having a monster year. But IMO, we need both of these guys to be scoring. There's going to come a point, when we're 1/2 way through the season, if Dats has like 6-8 goals, that's not going to be good for anybody, no matter if Z has 100 goals by then.

(fingers crossed) that Babs would move Dats back to center and Z to the wing.

I'm sorry but you must've not played hockey or have been taught the game very well.

If Dats scored 10 goals all season long, yet racks up 90 assists, he STILL has a 100 point season.

Now Im truely convinced youre like most hockey fans who think that scoring goals is more important than an assist when anyone who TRUELY understands the game knows that an assist is JUST AS GOOD AS A GOAL!

You know its just like in the San Jose game when Dats took it almost end to end, make a SICK move on the defenseman, drew both D over to him and all Z had to do was tap it in the net.

Now who did more work there??? DATSYUK.

which is strictly why "A POINT IS A POINT"!!!

There's no other way of looking at it. 100 points is 100 points, whether its 90 goals and 10 assist or 1 goal and 99 assist.

and as long as theyre winning im sure Dats is happy, ESPECIALLY since his buddy is the scoring leader!

[eva unit zero 271]

90 assists sounds good to me. I'm sure no one will complain when we have two guys over 100 points. When is the last time that happened?

With the Wings? Never.

Closest was 1996, when Fedorov posted 106 and Yzerman posted 95, and both were Selke finalists.

[sibiriak 84]

GS+T, I just crunched some numbers and here's what I found. Compared to the last season, Dats, Zetts, and Homer play more minutes, have more shots and more points per game (except Dats). The only stats in decline are Dats shoot% (by 9.4 % pts), PtsPG (-0.1), GPG (-0.22),and FO%(-5.7% pts). If Datsyuk shot at his last year efficiency of 13% he'd have 9 or 10 goals and 20+ pts now, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Homer would have had a couple fewer goals (no rebounds to put in). So you do have a point as far as this stat goes. But since Dats is taking more shots per game than last season (+0.88 SPG), his lack of goalscoring is not because he doesn't have chances.

Unless you think that his shot selection suddenly deteriorated, or that he lost his aim, the goals will come. I don't see any statistical reason to think that Dats move to the wing has caused his lower scoring. He gets shot opportunities. And it's not like he and Zetts ever had fixed roles on offense before. It never mattered which of them was a nominal center, they were all over the ice anyway.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GS+T, I just crunched some numbers and here's what I found. Compared to the last season, Dats, Zetts, and Homer play more minutes, have more shots and more points per game (except Dats). The only stats in decline are Dats shoot% (by 9.4 % pts), PtsPG (-0.1), GPG (-0.22),and FO%(-5.7% pts). If Datsyuk shot at his last year efficiency of 13% he'd have 9 or 10 goals and 20+ pts now, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Homer would have had a couple fewer goals (no rebounds to put in). So you do have a point as far as this stat goes. But since Dats is taking more shots per game than last season (+0.88 SPG), his lack of goalscoring is not because he doesn't have chances.

Unless you think that his shot selection suddenly deteriorated, or that he lost his aim, the goals will come. I don't see any statistical reason to think that Dats move to the wing has caused his lower scoring. He gets shot opportunities. And it's not like he and Zetts ever had fixed roles on offense before. It never mattered which of them was a nominal center, they were all over the ice anyway.

I think he's not a natural winger so he's even more inclined to look to pass. I think playing Center gave him better quality chances as people knew he would look to dish and if he didn't, he usually had the puck in the slot or at a good angle. Now, they still know he's going to pass but if he doesn't, he's got the puck off to the side and not in necessarily a high percentage scoring area. That, and he's a lefty on the left wing making one-timers and such near impossible.

There's a number of factors contributing to his goal slump. None of which I think have anything to do with him being a setup man. He's always been a setup man. But instead of doing it from his natural postiion. He's doing it from the wing and getting left with fewer quality scoring chances or shooting from lesser quality angles. Of course this is just my opinion.

I'm sorry but you must've not played hockey or have been taught the game very well.

If Dats scored 10 goals all season long, yet racks up 90 assists, he STILL has a 100 point season.

Now Im truely convinced youre like most hockey fans who think that scoring goals is more important than an assist when anyone who TRUELY understands the game knows that an assist is JUST AS GOOD AS A GOAL!

You know its just like in the San Jose game when Dats took it almost end to end, make a SICK move on the defenseman, drew both D over to him and all Z had to do was tap it in the net.

Now who did more work there??? DATSYUK.

which is strictly why "A POINT IS A POINT"!!!

There's no other way of looking at it. 100 points is 100 points, whether its 90 goals and 10 assist or 1 goal and 99 assist.

and as long as theyre winning im sure Dats is happy, ESPECIALLY since his buddy is the scoring leader!

Yeah, you're sorry alright.

So far this thread i'v been accused of not watching the games, not playing hockey, not knowing hockey or what little hockey I know, was taught to me in a poor fashion. Where do some of these people come from? You want to compare hockey pedigrees, let's rock. Send me a PM and we'll trade how long and at what levels we've played hockey.

By the way, if Dats does rack up 90 assists, that would be a remarkable feat. And it would likely mean that Zetterberg and/or Holmstrom hit the 50/60 goal marks. Which as i've stated a 100 times. If they were to do so I'd be as happy as a lark. Now get the gears to turn in that head of yours just a little faster and tell me what the odds are that Datsyuk will have a 90 assist season?

Seeing as how he's never scored 90 points in a season, i'm not going to go to Vegas and wager on that one.

"100 points is 100 points" WOW! Thank you for that. You're a regular ******* Archimedes.

[sibiriak 84]

I think he's not a natural winger so he's even more inclined to look to pass. I think playing Center gave him better quality chances as people knew he would look to dish and if he didn't, he usually had the puck in the slot or at a good angle. Now, they still know he's going to pass but if he doesn't, he's got the puck off to the side and not in necessarily a high percentage scoring area. That, and he's a lefty on the left wing making one-timers and such near impossible.

There's a number of factors contributing to his goal slump. None of which I think have anything to do with him being a setup man. He's always been a setup man. But instead of doing it from his natural postiion. He's doing it from the wing and getting left with fewer quality scoring chances or shooting from lesser quality angles. Of course this is just my opinion.

Sorry, I don't see it. Datsyuk has been shooting from all angles this season. He and Zetterberg don't have fixed positions on offence. Homer goes to the net and the other two are circling around looking for a hole in coverage. They are equally likely to be on the right, left or center of the offensive zone. And the Wings don't really use the left wing lock anymore, so Datsyuk doesn't have a larger defensive responsibility.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

With the Wings? Never.

Closest was 1996, when Fedorov posted 106 and Yzerman posted 95, and both were Selke finalists.

Hypotheticals or not you're one of the only people around here that knows what they're talking about.....even if I never agree with you.

Sorry, I don't see it. Datsyuk has been shooting from all angles this season. He and Zetterberg don't have fixed positions on offence. Homer goes to the net and the other two are circling around looking for a hole in coverage. They are equally likely to be on the right, left or center of the offensive zone. And the Wings don't really use the left wing lock anymore, so Datsyuk doesn't have a larger defensive responsibility.

We see what we choose to see I guess. Tell you what though. Tomorrow's game could be a little mini-sample. Let's see how many shots Datsyuk takes and from where on the ice he takes them. We'll see if he's roaming and getting shots or we'll see if he's stuck primarily on the left, not taking shots or getting poor quality shots off and pretty much just being relegated to passing the puck to someone in a more prime scoring position.

[sibiriak 84]

We see what we choose to see I guess. Tell you what though. Tomorrow's game could be a little mini-sample. Let's see how many shots Datsyuk takes and from where on the ice he takes them. We'll see if he's roaming and getting shots or we'll see if he's stuck primarily on the left, not taking shots or getting poor quality shots off and pretty much just being relegated to passing the puck to someone in a more prime scoring position.

Provided that the game doesn't get blacked out because of the damn NHL Network again. Time Warner Columbus doesn't planto launch the NHL Network till Jan 2008 at the earliest, and the NHL CenterIce has lost the rights to the games that the NHL Network broadcasts. And this Sunday's game is on the NHL Network...

BTW, what the heck happened in the DAL-LA game? The Stars were up4-0 after two and they managed to lose in OT???

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Provided that the game doesn't get blacked out because of the damn NHL Network again. Time Warner Columbus doesn't planto launch the NHL Network till Jan 2008 at the earliest, and the NHL CenterIce has lost the rights to the games that the NHL Network broadcasts. And this Sunday's game is on the NHL Network...

BTW, what the heck happened in the DAL-LA game? The Stars were up4-0 after two and they managed to lose in OT???

Didn't catch the Dallas game. Tell you what though, I get the NHL network so i'll report to you what I saw. And if it turns out i'm wrong and you're right, i'll fuggin' lie through my teeth and proclaim my greatness for all here to see!

[seeinred 1,488]

Okay, here's a projection for you, since projections are so valid and all.

Over the past 4 seasons, Z has missed 47 games.

That's 11.75 games per season. So, if we can distort numbers by using projections, he'll miss 11-12 games this year. How many points does that shave off of Eva's projection?

As for the question I posed. You're avoiding it entirely. The question was not if I told you Datsyuk would average a point a game. Its what if I told you he had 2 goals through 16 games. Would that make you say "awesome" as well?

Furthermore, Datsyuk has averaged more than a point per game the past 2 years. So technically, if we're going to live and die projections, Datsyuk is not only projecting to score fewer goals this year, but to also score fewer points.

WOW, THAT'S AWESOME!

I did answer your question. I qualified my answer, but I answered it nonetheless. If you had said "Datsyuk will have 2 goals and those are the only points he'll have through 16 games" that would be pretty horrible, but it's not the case, so it's a moot point.

Why are you so hung up on goals? Yes, it would be terrific if Pavs and Hank both had 15 goals right now, but that's not realistic. The fact of the matter is, Datsyuk has 16 points in 16 games, which is a really good start to the season.

[hockey&beer 16]

Since I'm late getting in on this topic and didn't read through all five pages i'll assume that this point has already been brought up:

Datsyuk's faceoff numbers will probably be poor this season for the simple fact that when DZH is on the ice, Z takes the faceoff and D only comes in if Z gets tossed. Therefore, D must be much more cautious in the circle to avoid taking the penalty.

As far a point production... a point is a point. The goal would never occur if the play was never setup by a sometimes amazing move by D, and never finish without the confidence that Z has right now. At some point this streak will end and you'll see D getting more quality chances. But don't be fooled D is the setup man and Z is the finisher, end of story.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Who wants to mess with a good thing, right? I know, but despite how well Datsyuk is playing, its not good that he has only 2 goals in 16 games this season. I don't care if he racks up 90 assists, he's on pace for a 10 goal season.

Why is Datsyuk not the Center on that line and Zetterberg the Left Winger?

Not only are Datsyuk's goals way down, his faceoff win percentage is sagging as well. I'm inclined to believe that alot of that has to do with the fact that he's not taking as many faceoffs as a natural centerman should and therefore he's losing more than he's accustomed to.

Maybe i'm nuts but IMO Datsyuk is a better natural centerman and Zetterberg is a better natural winger. Watching Dats play left wing like its a centerman's position just doesn't look right to me. And his numbers are suffering because of it.

Don't get me wrong, Its alll good that Z is having a monster year. But IMO, we need both of these guys to be scoring. There's going to come a point, when we're 1/2 way through the season, if Dats has like 6-8 goals, that's not going to be good for anybody, no matter if Z has 100 goals by then.

(fingers crossed) that Babs would move Dats back to center and Z to the wing.

Was anyone in St. Louis complaining when Adam Oates was racking up all those assists by setting up Brett Hull?

[nkuehnl 0]

The only legitimate complaint is that Datsyuk isn't scoring enough goals. However, he's getting a ton of opportunities and is playing like a beast. The goals will come eventually if he keeps up this effort. Moving him to center has absolutely no effect on whether or not his shots from the slot go in.

If Datsyuk were struggling, I'd agree with you. You claim to watch the games but I can't say that I believe that if you don't think Datsyuk has been extremely effective each and every shift.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Im the dickhead for being rational? Not thrusting Zetterberg into the "best in the league"(which multiple people in this thread and in different threads have mentioned.

Use YOUR reading comprehension skills and change the title of this thread to "Zetterberg leaching off of Datsyuk?"

PS: Please, since you're all high and mighty, explain my the factual flaws with my first post. Theres only around five points that you need to dispute. Oh I am sure you attempted but realized theres nothing to pick a part.

And Harold, I am sure you one of the many that bashed Datsyuk during contract negotiations. But of course, Zetterberg is a "HERO" since he signed into a lengthy bad deal on his end.

The fact that you resulted to name calling on further proves my point that you have nothing to back up your arguments.

So lets's see, I'm the one who resorted to namecalling?

Try rereading your first crazy ass post. You basically accused everyone on this site of worshipping Zetterberg and saying Datsyuk was a bust. Now skim through this thread again and show me where someone said anything close to Datsyuk being a bust. Almost everyone in the thread was saying Datsyuk was doing great and there's no need ot change anything. Yet you flipped out.

Now you're accusing me of bashing Datsyuk during contract negotiations. Wtf do their contracts have to do with this?

You've seriously got such a weird chip on your shoulder about Datsyuk. I can't believe you can't see it. Your first post had almost nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Neither do their contracts.

since then you've managed to make a reasoned, on topic, informed response. Not so hard, is it?

Go back and read your first post. It was a massive off topic rant.

I'm not high and mighty. I'm just sick of people flying off the handle if you say anything even remotely critical of Datsyuk or Hasek, or whoever else some members have an irrational love for. This is a hockey forum and Gordie brought up a relatively harmless point about switching Datsyuk back to center, and you and a couple other people go apes***.

it's ridiculous.

Some highlights of your rant:

This is by far the weakest argument I have ever seen in my life....

We're privileged to have two all-time great players fall into our laps for basically nothing and we're going to bicker over who is better? Fine lets do it..

Do you all have a short term memory?

...

But of course, since Z is the best player in the league(but I thought that was Lidstrom?). He is obviously just carrying Datsyuk and Holmstrom.

Some other problems:

I also do not believe that Zetterberg or Datsyuk(my favorite player) is the best player in the league. They're great players but they're not THE BEST. But of course, since a Wing is at the top of the score boards, he must be the best. Even though an eighteen year old and a twenty year old are both one or two strong games from passing him..

Since Wings fans specifically are the end all of hockey knowledge, at what moment did Zetterberg pass Lidstrom as the best in the league? I thought the Nick overrating had died down, I guess not. Lidstrom may be the best player at his position(debateable) but Dats and Z are not the best centers in the league, let alone best players.

But of course, its all Zetterberg. Datsyuk is the biggest bust of all time. Datsyuk and Zetterberg need to score 70 goals a piece or the season is lost.

It's like you made up your own arguments to get pissed about.

Edited November 11, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The only legitimate complaint is that Datsyuk isn't scoring enough goals. However, he's getting a ton of opportunities and is playing like a beast. The goals will come eventually if he keeps up this effort. Moving him to center has absolutely no effect on whether or not his shots from the slot go in.

If Datsyuk were struggling, I'd agree with you. You claim to watch the games but I can't say that I believe that if you don't think Datsyuk has been extremely effective each and every shift.

Enough sugarcoating. Are you ******* retarded?

My patience for stupidity has a limit and its very short.

Go thru the thread and show me where I ever once said Datsyuk has been an ineffective player or hasn't been doing good things on the ice.

I was commenting on his goal scoring numbers going down because he's on the wing, which is not natural for him and that his faceoff percentage is also down because he's not taking them regularly as you need to do if you want to be good at it.

I cannot believe the amount of ******* knuckleheads on here who can comprehend what's being said and divert the thread into umpteen million things that it has nothing to do with nor that I've commented on.

You don't think I watch the games? That doesn't say much for you because of your complete lack of comprehension of what details i'm talking about. If you had the slightest notion, you'd stick with commenting on the things i've brought up such as goals and faceoff percentage. Nowhere have I claimed he's playing poorly.

The "you don't watch the games" comeback is getting as bad as the "you don't play hockey" ones. These are the type of comments made by those that are fresh out of ideas.

Instead of an ignore list, we ought to create a ******* moron list that people can stick other members into. What qualifies you for the list? Bringing up s*** that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, such as Jason Spezza's goals to assist ratio and accusing people of not watching games and attacking players they aren't even attacking. Show me one freaking time I said Datsyuk has played poorly?

I swear to god, all the evidence needed to show why the US educational system is in the tanks can be found right here on this board. You people aren't ******* mating are you? I hope for mankind's sake you aren't.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Are you ******* retarded?

Hey hey hey.. Save that kind of talk for colorado fans

[nkuehnl 0]

I am a touchy little princess.

You have yet to provide me with any information as to how I am wrong.

Datsyuk's shooting percentage has no correlation to his position.

If you want to use this season as proof that it does, that's fine. I'm going to refute you with Zetterberg's numbers being way better at his current position, thus negating the need to swap them. As I said before, you cannot vilify projections and then use them as evidence in the same argument. And no matter how you'd like to spin it, 10 goals and 90 assists still equates to 100 goals scored. Even if Datsyuk finished with 5 goals and 80 assists, that does not make him any less of a threat when shooting.

Just remember, there's a difference between being passionate and being stubborn.

I'd like to see a sound argument come back, so that perhaps we could end up on some middle ground. I'm sure you'll ignore all of this, however, to call me a ******* retard again. I guess that's the risk I take when posting on the internet.

edit: You know what, ignore this entire post and just read this: You've already had this discussion with someone earlier showing Datsyuk's stats. Your entire argument is based off the opinion that Datsyuk would score more at center due to whatever reasons you find valid. That's great, it's an opinion and I can respect that. MY opinion is that Datsyuk has been shooting from everywhere, not just off the left wing, and the pucks just aren't going in. Regardless of where he lines up for a faceoff, he's just not as fortunate as Zetterberg right now.

You have one opinion, I have another. There are no stats in these opinions.

The difference is that you resort to calling people "******* retards" when they post their opinion, while your opinion is to be regarded as fact.

It's a good discussion with no right or wrong answer, other than the aforementioned problem of calling people "******* retards" just because they disagree with you and can't understand where you're coming from. Enjoy arguing for no reason, this thread has lost its purpose and regardless of what you believe, it's YOUR fault. Also, maybe that weird guy who brought in the completely different Zetterberg debate. He could certainly be blamed for something.

Edited November 11, 2007 by nkuehnl

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Enough sugarcoating. Are you ******* retarded?

My patience for stupidity has a limit and its very short.

Go thru the thread and show me where I ever once said Datsyuk has been an ineffective player or hasn't been doing good things on the ice.

I was commenting on his goal scoring numbers going down because he's on the wing, which is not natural for him and that his faceoff percentage is also down because he's not taking them regularly as you need to do if you want to be good at it.

I cannot believe the amount of ******* knuckleheads on here who can comprehend what's being said and divert the thread into umpteen million things that it has nothing to do with nor that I've commented on.

You don't think I watch the games? That doesn't say much for you because of your complete lack of comprehension of what details i'm talking about. If you had the slightest notion, you'd stick with commenting on the things i've brought up such as goals and faceoff percentage. Nowhere have I claimed he's playing poorly.

The "you don't watch the games" comeback is getting as bad as the "you don't play hockey" ones. These are the type of comments made by those that are fresh out of ideas.

Instead of an ignore list, we ought to create a ******* moron list that people can stick other members into. What qualifies you for the list? Bringing up s*** that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, such as Jason Spezza's goals to assist ratio and accusing people of not watching games and attacking players they aren't even attacking. Show me one freaking time I said Datsyuk has played poorly?

I swear to god, all the evidence needed to show why the US educational system is in the tanks can be found right here on this board. You people aren't ******* mating are you? I hope for mankind's sake you aren't.

there's no point Gordie. Though I personally didn't really agree with your original point, I still think it's a valid topic worth discussion.

But dare to say anything other than hyperbolic praise for certain players here (Dats and Hasek top the list) and people go apes***, ranting against non-existent insults and slights of their favorite player.

You'd think when you started this thread by saying how great Datsyuk was playing, that might prevent some of these idiots from whining about people picking on Datsyuk, but alas it's not enough, because they would have to actually read your post before spouting off for that to work.

As I said in another thread, I thought this is a hockey discussion forum, not a player worship forum. It's been f-ing ridiculous here lately.

EDIT: this isn't really directed at you nkuehnl because I haven't been following your argument, but a couple other people who invented arguments in this thread.

Edited November 11, 2007 by haroldsnepsts