GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted December 3, 2007 Instead of blindly reading my posts on this topic you need to look at the context. I was in no way pointing out that Bourque's stats are better, therefore he is better. Obviously, it is not that simple, otherwise, we'd never need to have these discussions, we'd just look at the scoring list. My point about stats was that someone mentioned stats as a reason why Lidstrom was better than Bourque, which I found odd......that's all, simple as that. Stats do mean something though and with his significant point lead over Lidstrom, combined with the fact that he was the 1st or 2nd team allstar 19 times compared to Lidstrom's 8, I have him ahead. With respect to Lidstrom being the best defenseman in the league for the past 7 years or so and Bourque never had that type of streak since he shared the Norris with a few other guys.......last time I checked, Lidstrom did not win the Norris the last 7 straight years. You can argue he was the best each year if you want, but you can't then say Bourque wasn't simply because he didn't win the Norris every year. I have yet to see someone try to deflect away the 19 post-season allstar selections vs. 8....... Fair enough, but Bourque has more all-star selections than any player ever, which I think we'll all agree doesn't mean he was better than anyone else to play the game. Obviously he's been consistent, but so has Lidstrom. I think bias has a lot to do with the all-star selections, because Lidstrom has never been as popular as Bourque was. Not that Bourque was a show-off, but he was the biggest star for the Bruins, while Lidstrom was never the biggest star for the Wings. However, Lidstrom should have more than the amount of 1st team or 2nd team all star selections that he's had. Also, I'll take Lidstrom's defensive game over Bourque's any day. His positioning and stick placement is the best of any defenseman ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DetroitIan Report post Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) All I know is, I put a hell of alot more stock in someone that has(or will have) more Norris Trophys, than someone who has more all star selections. Nick might finish with alteast 2 more Norris Trophys. Norris Trophy>>>>>All star selection. Not to mention the multiple Stanley Cup championships, and oh yeah, the Conn Smythe Trophy. And I was only mentioning stats because I was making sure you werent gonna give Bourque all this praise in stats, without knowing that Nick would most definitely have alot more goals and assists if he were to play over 500 more games. I and most hockey experts agree, that Nick Lidstrom is ahead of Bourque, as of right this moment. And even if somehow he wasnt ahead of Bourque right now, he will most certainly be by the time he retires. Edited December 3, 2007 by DetroitIan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
up2here 41 Report post Posted December 3, 2007 Lids is the best European player ever in the NHL. As far as defensemen, he's 4th or 5th at best among NHLers, with Orr, Bourque, and Harvey ahead of him. A few more years at the top and MAYBE he can move into 3rd or possibly even 2nd, but not yet. Bourque wasnt in Nick's class defensively,he spent too much time up ice for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RedWingsFever Report post Posted December 4, 2007 All I know is, I put a hell of alot more stock in someone that has(or will have) more Norris Trophys, than someone who has more all star selections. Nick might finish with alteast 2 more Norris Trophys. Norris Trophy>>>>>All star selection. Not to mention the multiple Stanley Cup championships, and oh yeah, the Conn Smythe Trophy. And I was only mentioning stats because I was making sure you werent gonna give Bourque all this praise in stats, without knowing that Nick would most definitely have alot more goals and assists if he were to play over 500 more games. I and most hockey experts agree, that Nick Lidstrom is ahead of Bourque, as of right this moment. And even if somehow he wasnt ahead of Bourque right now, he will most certainly be by the time he retires. Couldn't agree more. When you take everything into account. Nicklas Lidstrom is already above Ray Bourque. Right now, Lidstrom is #3. Bourque is right behind at #4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 All I know is, I put a hell of alot more stock in someone that has(or will have) more Norris Trophys, than someone who has more all star selections. Nick might finish with alteast 2 more Norris Trophys. Norris Trophy>>>>>All star selection. Not to mention the multiple Stanley Cup championships, and oh yeah, the Conn Smythe Trophy. And I was only mentioning stats because I was making sure you werent gonna give Bourque all this praise in stats, without knowing that Nick would most definitely have alot more goals and assists if he were to play over 500 more games. I and most hockey experts agree, that Nick Lidstrom is ahead of Bourque, as of right this moment. And even if somehow he wasnt ahead of Bourque right now, he will most certainly be by the time he retires. Most hockey experts agree that Lidstrom is better? Who, exactly, are you talking about? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 I think the only two defenceman ahead of Lids are Harvey and Orr. Not sure he will ever over take Orr, and lets be honest folks being the third best defenceman of all time is pretty damn good, especially when you consider the two ahead of him. If he gets another 2-3 norris trophies he would be even with Harvey. But being behind Harvey is not a slight in anyway, to mention his name with the likes of Bourque, Harvey, and Orr is a compliment already. I do have to say though if I am starting a team and I have to pick two defenceman for my top pairing Orr, Lids. That combination would work wonders. Orr would be all over the ice, people would be ooo-ing and ahhing over his skating abilities. Mean while Lids would be playing great defense, playing the point on the pp, assistis, they would dominate the league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 1) Orr 2) Harvey 3) Bourque 4) Lidstrom 5) Shore 6) Potvin 7) Kelly 8) Robinson 9) Chelios 10) Park Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinRedWing 172 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 Sundin hasn't had any decent linemates for any length of time throughout his career; would Kurri have had the career he's had without Gretz feeding him the puck? To me Jagr is the epitome of "hot & cold", & isn't as consitent as Sundin...I'd rank Sundin ahead of these 2 as well. Sundin might be a better player,but Jari has 5 Stanley Cups. Sundin might end up with 0. That has to count for something,right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 Sundin might be a better player,but Jari has 5 Stanley Cups. Sundin might end up with 0. That has to count for something,right? Is Sandis Ozolinsh a greater defenseman than Phil Housley? I don't think so, but your argument would suggest he is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinRedWing 172 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 Is Sandis Ozolinsh a greater defenseman than Phil Housley? I don't think so, but your argument would suggest he is. It might,but you're suggesting that Sundin>Kurri is the same thing than Housley>Ozolinsh? Well,let see the points: Kurri 1251games 601+797= 1398 Sundin 1258games 536+740= 1276 I won't even mention the Cups here... And maybe the best argument is that Kurri is Kurri and Sundin is Sundin. The other one might be the best Finnish hockey player ever (some say Selanne) and the other one is a Swede,who's not very popular around here. All the arguments in the world couldn't change my opinion about this particular matter,let alone anyone who's Finnish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MacK_Attack 108 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 It might,but you're suggesting that Sundin>Kurri is the same thing than Housley>Ozolinsh? Well,let see the points: Kurri 1251games 601+797= 1398 Sundin 1258games 536+740= 1276 Kurri rode shotgun for Gretzky in the high-powered 80s, while Sundin's prime had him playing in the trap era with Jonas Hoglund. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinRedWing 172 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 Kurri rode shotgun for Gretzky in the high-powered 80s, while Sundin's prime had him playing in the trap era with Jonas Hoglund. I know. I only wanted to demonstrate that Ozolinsh-Housley comparison was a bit off too. Bottom line: I'm biased and so are you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 If Bourque was a swede he wouldn't have made all those all-star games Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted December 4, 2007 I know. I only wanted to demonstrate that Ozolinsh-Housley comparison was a bit off too. Bottom line: I'm biased and so are you. Fine. Glenn Anderson or Teemu Selanne? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DetroitIan Report post Posted December 4, 2007 Most hockey experts agree that Lidstrom is better? Who, exactly, are you talking about? Gee I dunno, I couldn't be referring to the whole reason this thread was started right? Looks like THN certainly agrees. Not to mention most people in general would agree that the Norris Trophy is BY FAR more prestigious than a f-ing all star selection. And considering thats one of your big arguments, I would say its pretty clear who's higher on the all time list. Nick Lidstrom has accomplished a hell of alot more, in 7 LESS SEASONS. Not to mention the fact that Nick didnt have to jump ship at the tail end of his career just to win the Cup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinRedWing 172 Report post Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Fine. Glenn Anderson or Teemu Selanne? That's a real coin flip. Anderson had a great career with lots of Stanley Cups but now that Teemu has one too... And that 76-goal rookie season record will never be broken. Maybe 6 Stanley Cups takes it..? And Glenn has never caused us Finns any heartbreak. I really can't decide. But Teemu has won the Cup(which Sundin hasn't),so I'll say Selanne. Good one,Eva! Edited December 5, 2007 by FinRedWing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
