Best players ever?

[eva unit zero 271]

Inspired by the Lidstrom thread, I thought we could have a discussion on who the five best players at each position were/are, all-time. So here's mine.

Center:

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Mario Lemieux

3) Steve Yzerman

4) Jean Beliveau

5) Mark Messier

Left Wing:

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Luc Robitaille

4) Johnny Bucyk

5) Brendan Shanahan

Right Wing:

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Mike Bossy

4) Guy Lafleur

5) Joe Malone

Defense:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Doug Harvey

3) Ray Bourque

4) Nicklas Lidstrom

5) Eddie Shore

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Martin Brodeur

[Duck Guy 86]

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Martin Brodeur[/font]

no Patrick Roy? shame on you,,,

[irishtemper14+25 11]

lol i wouldnt put roy in there either =D

[StaticWithABeat 0]

Hmm tough to pick some of these...

C

Gretzky

Lemieux

Yzerman

Beliveau

Messier

L

Hull

Lindsay

Bucyk

Robitaille

Mahovlich

R

Howe

Richard

Bossy

Lafleur

Jagr

D

Orr

Harvey

Lidstrom

Bourque

Shore

G

Sawchuk

Plante

Brodeur

Roy

Dryden

[BeeRYCE 2]

Inspired by the Lidstrom thread, I thought we could have a discussion on who the five best players at each position were/are, all-time. So here's mine.

Center:

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Mario Lemieux

3) Steve Yzerman

4) Jean Beliveau

5) Mark Messier

Left Wing:

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Luc Robitaille

4) Johnny Bucyk

5) Brendan Shanahan

Right Wing:

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Mike Bossy

4) Guy Lafleur

5) Joe Malone

Defense:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Doug Harvey

3) Ray Bourque

4) Nicklas Lidstrom

5) Eddie Shore

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Martin Brodeur

Yeah, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with everything here with maybe minor changes, but a major one is not including Roy. I hate the guy, at one point I wanted him to die, but his ability is undeniable. I'd put him maybe number one all time, but putting him behind Plante and Sawchuk isn't bad either, but not including him in top 5 is a travesty.

[eva unit zero 271]

Yeah, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with everything here with maybe minor changes, but a major one is not including Roy. I hate the guy, at one point I wanted him to die, but his ability is undeniable. I'd put him maybe number one all time, but putting him behind Plante and Sawchuk isn't bad either, but not including him in top 5 is a travesty.

Sawchuk, Plante, Durnan, and Dryden were all the best goaltender in the league every year for a period of several seasons; similar to what Hasek did in Buffalo. But those guys also won SEVERAL Cups and were the backbone of their team in doing so. With Durnan, he played seven seasons before abruptly retiring. he was named to the First Team and won the Vezina SIX times in his seven seasons. Plante won five Cups in a row and seven of eight Vezinas. In fact, the next guy on my list after Brodeur isn't even Roy; it's Glenn Hall. Roy comes in somewhere between 7 and 10, as does Dominik Hasek. Just because Roy played a long time and amassed a bunch of cumulative stats doesn't mean he was better than guys that chose to leave early whie still the best in the game (Dryden, Durnan) or guys who dominated the league every year for most of their career (Sawchuk, Plante).

[BeeRYCE 2]

I think Roy playing a long time and picking up all those stats has a lot to do with him being the best.

More importantly, Roy revolutionized the game for goalie on so many levels. The pioneer of the butterfly style has made goalies the most crucial part of pretty much any team in the NHL for the last 20 years. Also, him picking up these cumulative stats as you say proves that he has been consistant over his entire career. Three Conn Smythes really doesn't look bad on his behalf either, I mean winning the cup is what it's all about right? It just proves how crucial he was on all his cup wins, especially the 3 times he was MVP.

Roy is just overlooked because he's an *******, but that shouldn't change his recognition as arguably best goalie ever, and unanimously a top 5. By the end of Brodeur's career though, it's very possible and likely he could pass Roy, but at this point Brodeur still isn't ahead of Roy, just not yet.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Sawchuk, Plante, Durnan, and Dryden were all the best goaltender in the league every year for a period of several seasons; similar to what Hasek did in Buffalo. But those guys also won SEVERAL Cups and were the backbone of their team in doing so. With Durnan, he played seven seasons before abruptly retiring. he was named to the First Team and won the Vezina SIX times in his seven seasons. Plante won five Cups in a row and seven of eight Vezinas. In fact, the next guy on my list after Brodeur isn't even Roy; it's Glenn Hall. Roy comes in somewhere between 7 and 10, as does Dominik Hasek. Just because Roy played a long time and amassed a bunch of cumulative stats doesn't mean he was better than guys that chose to leave early whie still the best in the game (Dryden, Durnan) or guys who dominated the league every year for most of their career (Sawchuk, Plante).

How many playoffs games did Roy win?

How many 1 goal playoff games did he win?

How many overtime playoffs games did he win?

He may not be on your list, but i'll bet you a month's salary he'd be on any list made by Bob McKenzie, Barry Melrose, EJ Hradek, Darren Dreger, Scotty Bowman, etc.......

Sticking around the league for a long time should not be frowned upon or used as a crutch to downplay a player's personal achievements as you are trying to do. Do we feel that way about Chris Chelios or Gordie Howe? Longevity is a sign of prolonged success.

check out this article

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1136...eur-or-Roy.html

How can people have Brodeur on the list but not Roy when Roy has 3 Con Smyths to Brodeur's big phat zero. A testament to the defensive first style the Devils employed. Roy carried his teams to Cups, Brodeur did not.

Also, in 2004, according to his Wiki page a panel of 41 writers, in combination with a fan poll named Roy the greatest ever. Not one of the top 5, but THE GREATEST EVER.

Roy

4 Stanley Cups

3 Con Smyth

3 Vezinas

151 playoff wins....this is a monster statistic, Brodeur needs to win 15 more playoff series just to catch up. Considering his age, he won't come close unless the Devils go deep into the playoffs or win a cup at least 2-3 times.

I would put Brodeur on a top 5 list for sure. But he'd be at least one slot lower than where I put Patrick Roy.

Playoffs, pressure situations, nobody was ever better than Roy.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I think Roy playing a long time and picking up all those stats has a lot to do with him being the best.

Roy is top 5 in terms of modern goalies.. comparing Dryden, Sawchuck, and those kinds of guys to modern goalies is apples and oranges since the game has changed so much since those players have played. Likewise if we want to compare Howe to Gretzky and such, it's again difficult. Could Gretzky have tallied all those points in a day when he would have to fight and play against teams with a defence? Duno. I can only confidently compare players to their contemporaries.

Now, if we are to relegate our discussion to amount of influence, then older players deserve the majority of the credit because it is all a snowball effect (Roy couldn't be there to revolutionize goaltending if your Sawchucks hadn't revolutionized it first..ect). However, I'd certainly say Roy has greatly benefited from the teams he played on...I've always felt the Conn Smyth is more a popularity contest and marketing skeem rather than a real trophy. I almost always disagree with who they hand it to. I would have liked to see how Roy would have done in a Buffalo jersey, and since that was never the case we'll have to use our guts to solve this one. Yeah, Roy was a ******, but he is top 3 of our generation, with Hasek and Broduer obviously rounding out the modern games trio of greats between the pipes. For someone to put one of the three above the others is an act of preference, because I don't think you can accurately say who's the best. All three have benefited from good teams, though I'd say that what seperates Broduer and Hasek from Roy (other than Roy's occasional 7 to 9-goal slipup) is that Roy has never taken a bad team and made it competative.. I think you can make the claim that Broduer and Hasek have both managed this.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think Roy playing a long time and picking up all those stats has a lot to do with him being the best.

More importantly, Roy revolutionized the game for goalie on so many levels. The pioneer of the butterfly style

The pioneer of the butterfly style was Glenn Hall, not Roy.

has made goalies the most crucial part of pretty much any team in the NHL for the last 20 years. Also, him picking up these cumulative stats as you say proves that he has been consistant over his entire career. Three Conn Smythes really doesn't look bad on his behalf either, I mean winning the cup is what it's all about right? It just proves how crucial he was on all his cup wins, especially the 3 times he was MVP.

Dryden won the Conn Smythe before he won the Calder; Dryden won a whole bunch of Cups and probably deserved the Smythe more than once. Sawchuk would have won the award had it existed, as would Durnan and Plante. That's like saying Dryden can't have been the best rookie goaltender because he wasn't named to the all-rookie team, even though it didn't exist yet. Roy had a couple great years, but the top four guys were almost ALWAYS the best goalie in the league, AND Cup champions. As I said..it's like combining Hasek's regular season dominance with Roy's playoff performance to get those four guys. Hasek was often the best goaltender in the regular season, Roy was often the best in the postseason...neither consistently translated that success across to the other season, which Sawchuk, Plante, Durnan, and Plante did.

Roy is just overlooked because he's an *******, but that shouldn't change his recognition as arguably best goalie ever, and unanimously a top 5. By the end of Brodeur's career though, it's very possible and likely he could pass Roy, but at this point Brodeur still isn't ahead of Roy, just not yet.

I rank Brodeur ahead of Roy because he has about 100 more wins than Roy did at the same point in his career, including six 40-win seasons to Roy's one, and Brodeur missed a year in his prime due to the lockout. Brodeur has only three times in a full season had a GAA above 2.4, and has posted 92 shutouts, as well as leading the league in wins eight of the last nine seasons, posting 38 in the single season it didn't happen. Brodeur has been more consistently dominant than Roy was in his prime. Brodeur's 34-win 95-96 campaign (in which his team missed the playoffs) was the start of what is currently an NHL-record 11-season streak of 30-win seasons, which would be 12 had the 2005 lockout not occurred. Even more notably? Brodeur's playoff stats are better than his regular season numbers to a greater degree than Roy's postseason stats are to his regular season stats. That suggests that not only was Brodeur more dominant in the regular season, he more consistently stepped up his game to a higher level than Roy in the playoffs as well. In eleven playoff seasons, Brodeur's GAA has been below his regular season GAA eight times in eleven seasons. Roy accomplishes the feat eight times in seventeen playoff seasons; meaning Roy was actually more likely to give up MORE goals per game in the postseason, while Brodeur has almost always given up fewer. Roy is like Ron Francis...he was a really good player who played a long time and had a few great years, but ultimately his gaudy numbers are more a result of being a good player for a long time than being a truly great player.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Roy won 2 Stanley Cups all by himself in Montreal. No other goalie has ever been able to do that. Look at the players that Sawchuk and Plante played with. Who did Roy play with on those Montreal teams? Also, Brodeur only faced about 15 shots a game playing with that Devils defensive trap. The bottom line is that Roy won 3 Conn Smythes in 3 different decades. I'd put him ahead of anyone else, even though I hate the f*****'s guts.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The pioneer of the butterfly style was Glenn Hall, not Roy.

Dryden won the Conn Smythe before he won the Calder; Dryden won a whole bunch of Cups and probably deserved the Smythe more than once. Sawchuk would have won the award had it existed, as would Durnan and Plante. That's like saying Dryden can't have been the best rookie goaltender because he wasn't named to the all-rookie team, even though it didn't exist yet. Roy had a couple great years, but the top four guys were almost ALWAYS the best goalie in the league, AND Cup champions. As I said..it's like combining Hasek's regular season dominance with Roy's playoff performance to get those four guys. Hasek was often the best goaltender in the regular season, Roy was often the best in the postseason...neither consistently translated that success across to the other season, which Sawchuk, Plante, Durnan, and Plante did.

I rank Brodeur ahead of Roy because he has about 100 more wins than Roy did at the same point in his career, including six 40-win seasons to Roy's one, and Brodeur missed a year in his prime due to the lockout. Brodeur has only three times in a full season had a GAA above 2.4, and has posted 92 shutouts, as well as leading the league in wins eight of the last nine seasons, posting 38 in the single season it didn't happen. Brodeur has been more consistently dominant than Roy was in his prime. Brodeur's 34-win 95-96 campaign (in which his team missed the playoffs) was the start of what is currently an NHL-record 11-season streak of 30-win seasons, which would be 12 had the 2005 lockout not occurred. Even more notably? Brodeur's playoff stats are better than his regular season numbers to a greater degree than Roy's postseason stats are to his regular season stats. That suggests that not only was Brodeur more dominant in the regular season, he more consistently stepped up his game to a higher level than Roy in the playoffs as well. In eleven playoff seasons, Brodeur's GAA has been below his regular season GAA eight times in eleven seasons. Roy accomplishes the feat eight times in seventeen playoff seasons; meaning Roy was actually more likely to give up MORE goals per game in the postseason, while Brodeur has almost always given up fewer. Roy is like Ron Francis...he was a really good player who played a long time and had a few great years, but ultimately his gaudy numbers are more a result of being a good player for a long time than being a truly great player.

40 win seasons? That's a criteria for naming who is better?

How many games per season does Brodeur play?

How many years did Roy play in a league where platooning goalies or playing your #2 for 1/3 or more of your games was the norm?

Playoff wins

Roy 151

Brodeur 94

NO CONTEST

Playoff overtime record

Roy 40-18

Brodeur 10-19

You throw out playoff stats to make Broduer look like he "stepped up" to a gear that Roy could never do.

All your stats are junk. Playoff Wins is what counts. Con Smyth trophies is what counts.

I won't dog Brodeur about playing behind the most dominant defensive systems ever employed, except when you want to talk about shutouts where by all means those systems attributed to his totals.

Wins

Brodeur will pass Roy eventually. Its too bad Roy played his entire career in the Tie era. No shootout victories or extended overtimes or 4 on 4's for Roy. Brodeur has been given more opportunities to win games since ties no longer exist.

What good is a better GAA or save percentage if you lose? If we're not allowed to knock Brodeur's achievements by saying he played behind a great d. Then we can't look at his great personal stats and toss aside the fact that he can't win in overtime and hasn't won nearly the games Roy did in the playoffs.

PS: Roy lost about 25 more playoff games than Brodeur has in their careers. Brodeur is only going to lose more playoff games in the future. He has to win almost 3 out of every 4 playoff games the rest of his career to have a comparable win-loss record to Roy.

But hey, you don't have to convince me who is better. They're like 1A and 1B for me. But Roy gets my nod because he won the games that counted, 10-1 in overtime in one playoff year? Let's see another goalie do that.

I don't think the hockey writers of the world are all wrong about Roy being the best ever or at least better than Brodeur.

[Izzy24 44]

Haha, you guys all love Roy.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Who did Roy play with on those Montreal teams?

Lets see: 1985-86 : Chelios, Mats Naslund (110 point season), Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey (winner of 4 straight selke trophies), Larry Robinson, claude Lemieux, Svoboda, Ryan Walter, ....

a good team, especially defensively.

1992-93 (the better of the two teams): Guy Carbonneau, Mike Keane, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Denis Savard (hall of famer), Kirk Muller, John LeClair, Brisebois, Damphousse, Brian Bellows....

There are some great defensemen and defensively minded players on those two teams, and if we're going to dock Broduer points for having great defensemen around him, then the same needs to be done for Roy.

I won't dog Brodeur about playing behind the most dominant defensive systems ever employed, except when you want to talk about shutouts where by all means those systems attributed to his totals.

I'm to lazy to look at one of the 100 threads on this, but u better not say that kind of stuff and then be one of those guys advocating Osgood in the hall of fame . Also, Hasek > Roy and Broduer!! They'd both be still aiming for their 100th win if they played their career in Buffalo

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Lets see: 1985-86 : Chelios, Mats Naslund (110 point season), Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey (winner of 4 straight selke trophies), Larry Robinson, claude Lemieux, Svoboda, Ryan Walter, ....

a good team, especially defensively.

1992-93 (the better of the two teams): Guy Carbonneau, Mike Keane, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Denis Savard (hall of famer), Kirk Muller, John LeClair, Brisebois, Damphousse, Brian Bellows....

There are some great defensemen and defensively minded players on those two teams, and if we're going to dock Broduer points for having great defensemen around him, then the same needs to be done for Roy.

I'm to lazy to look at one of the 100 threads on this, but u better not say that kind of stuff and then be one of those guys advocating Osgood in the hall of fame . Also, Hasek > Roy and Broduer!! They'd both be still aiming for their 100th win if they played their career in Buffalo

Those players still don't compare to the guys that Sawchuk and Plante played with. As far as Brodeur, he never had to carry his team the way Roy did in Montreal, and that's the point that I was making. Also, I'm not one of those people who believes that Osgood should be in the Hall of Fame.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Lets see: 1985-86 : Chelios, Mats Naslund (110 point season), Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey (winner of 4 straight selke trophies), Larry Robinson, claude Lemieux, Svoboda, Ryan Walter, ....

a good team, especially defensively.

1992-93 (the better of the two teams): Guy Carbonneau, Mike Keane, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Denis Savard (hall of famer), Kirk Muller, John LeClair, Brisebois, Damphousse, Brian Bellows....

There are some great defensemen and defensively minded players on those two teams, and if we're going to dock Broduer points for having great defensemen around him, then the same needs to be done for Roy.

I'm to lazy to look at one of the 100 threads on this, but u better not say that kind of stuff and then be one of those guys advocating Osgood in the hall of fame . Also, Hasek > Roy and Broduer!! They'd both be still aiming for their 100th win if they played their career in Buffalo

I'd say the 85/86 team was better. Most of the players you mentioned for the 92/93 team are just sub-par kind of players every team has/had.

In all honesty though, I'd say the only goalie that really carried his team and made a living out of it was Dominik Hasek in Buffalo. You can say Luongo in Florida, but nothing happened there, just good SV% that's all.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Lets see: 1985-86 : Chelios, Mats Naslund (110 point season), Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey (winner of 4 straight selke trophies), Larry Robinson, claude Lemieux, Svoboda, Ryan Walter, ....

a good team, especially defensively.

1992-93 (the better of the two teams): Guy Carbonneau, Mike Keane, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Denis Savard (hall of famer), Kirk Muller, John LeClair, Brisebois, Damphousse, Brian Bellows....

There are some great defensemen and defensively minded players on those two teams, and if we're going to dock Broduer points for having great defensemen around him, then the same needs to be done for Roy.

I'm to lazy to look at one of the 100 threads on this, but u better not say that kind of stuff and then be one of those guys advocating Osgood in the hall of fame . Also, Hasek > Roy and Broduer!! They'd both be still aiming for their 100th win if they played their career in Buffalo

No Ozzie in the Hall talk from me. I've already said he won't get in.

As for Marty and Patty. I like Brodeur and hate Patrick Roy with a passion I can't express that only Wings fans would understand. However, my personal feelings don't get in the way of reason for me.

Brodeur's numbers can be questioned and the proof of that is they are questioned regularly. His shutouts? Playing behind the best trapping teams in history. His 40 win seasons? Playing more games per season than most goalies.

His playoff OT record and wins to loss ratio? Not even close to Patrick Roy's numbers.

Roy's OT record is unquestioned

Roy's 3 Con Smythe's, unquestioned

Roy played some years where the backup got 20-30 games. If Roy played 70+ games per year he'd have more 40 win seasons and Marty would have further to go to catch him.

Roy has been named the greatest by nearly every reliable hockey source again and again for good reason.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Those players still don't compare to the guys that Sawchuk and Plante played with. As far as Brodeur, he never had to carry his team the way Roy did in Montreal, and that's the point that I was making. Also, I'm not one of those people who believes that Osgood should be in the Hall of Fame.

Right, Sawchuk and Plante played with some amazing teams, but few can define themselves without a ton of surrounding tallent, and I think Roy has always had a plethora of it... that's why I'm a Hasek advocate.. his accomplishments in the hockey hell of Buffalo speaks for itself (as does his amazing Olympic play)... and it was all on teams that had consistently less tallent and skill than their opponents.. However, I would argue that Broduer has been carrying the load the past few seasons (not that he has cups to show for it, but I'm impressed that the Devils are still making the playoffs).

EDIT: I'm not trying to show my bias to Roy, honestly. I think he's top 10 all-time easily. I think of the modern trio I mentioned before it's 1. Hasek 2. Roy and 3. Broduer.

One thing Broduer managed, that Roy never managed, and deserves consideration, is Olympic gold (canada's first in like 50 years). Certainly that should be mulled over. Tho, Hasek's gold is again much more impressive.

Edit #45:

Roy has been named the greatest by nearly every reliable hockey source again and again for good reason.

This is the last edit I swear... everything hockey experts say this day and age (i.e. the past 15 years or so) has to be taken with a grain of salt because it's ALL publicity and marketing...we're a desperate league. They go with the trendy choice for #1 (as long as it's somewhat justifiable). When Broduer retires (with the wins record) you'll see a good number of hockey experts proclaiming him #1 all time, not because he is, but because it'll uncork the nostalgia in NJ and get asses in the seats.

Edited December 5, 2007 by RedWings Gone Wild

[stevkrause 1,247]

wow, this is a tough list and I agree with a lot of the original post - I added a "in the making" to every category- but here goes...

Center: - Lemieux dropped on my list because of his shortened career

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Steve Yzerman

3) Jean Beliveau

4) Mario Lemieux

5) Mark Messier

(in the making) - Sidney Crosby

Left Wing: - Agree with this section 100%

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Luc Robitaille

4) Johnny Bucyk

5) Brendan Shanahan

(in the making ) - Ilya Kovalchuk

Right Wing: - just a few adjustments here

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Guy Lafleur

4) Brett Hull

5) Mike Bossy

(in the making ) - Jaromir Jagr

Defense: - Also agree with a LOT of this, but needs some adjustments

1) Bobby Orr

2) Nicklas Lidstrom

3) Doug Harvey

4) Ray Bourque

5) Eddie Shore

(in the making) - Zdeno Chara

Goaltender: - This is such a difficult list because of the era's, but I feel that some of the recent guys deserved to be on this list, simply on the way they played

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Patrick Roy

3) Jaques Plante

4) Martin Brodeur

5) Dominik Hasek

(in the making)- Roberto Luongo

[eva unit zero 271]

Roy won 2 Stanley Cups all by himself in Montreal.

That is a load of bulls***. Both of those teams were among the league's best in the regular season. Those were also the only two seasons in his career Roy's regular season GAA was above 3. The Canadiens were among the best teams in the league DESPITE the fact that it was Roy's worst seasons. Roy won the Conn Smythe because he had a good playoff after a bad regular season in both instances, and him playing poorly or like his normal self was the difference between a very good team or a Cup-winning team. Roy NEVER carried his team to the Cup any more than Brodeur, Hasek, Vernon, Osgood, or Barrasso did. The one goalie I can think of who truly carried his team to the Cup was Bill Ranford, in his Conn Smythe season of 1990. And outside of that single performance, Ranford was an utterly mediocre goaltender.

No other goalie has ever been able to do that. Look at the players that Sawchuk and Plante played with. Who did Roy play with on those Montreal teams? Also, Brodeur only faced about 15 shots a game playing with that Devils defensive trap. The bottom line is that Roy won 3 Conn Smythes in 3 different decades. I'd put him ahead of anyone else, even though I hate the f*****'s guts.

(in the making) - Zdeno Chara

(in the making)- Roberto Luongo

What?? There are several ACTIVE players who I didn't mention who rank easily above those guys. Why would you pick an aging, Norris-less Chara who was great maybe for two seasons over perennial contenders Pronger, Niedermayer, Zubov or likely future contenders in Phaneuf and Bouwmeester?

Luongo has accomplished far too little to merit a mention over other guys as an 'in the making top 5 all-time goalie' or even close.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

to add to eva unit...

(in the making ) - Jaromir Jagr

Jagr is near the end of his career... i'd hardly call him "in the making"

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

That is a load of bulls***. Both of those teams were among the league's best in the regular season. Those were also the only two seasons in his career Roy's regular season GAA was above 3. The Canadiens were among the best teams in the league DESPITE the fact that it was Roy's worst seasons. Roy won the Conn Smythe because he had a good playoff after a bad regular season in both instances, and him playing poorly or like his normal self was the difference between a very good team or a Cup-winning team. Roy NEVER carried his team to the Cup any more than Brodeur, Hasek, Vernon, Osgood, or Barrasso did. The one goalie I can think of who truly carried his team to the Cup was Bill Ranford, in his Conn Smythe season of 1990. And outside of that single performance, Ranford was an utterly mediocre goaltender.

What?? There are several ACTIVE players who I didn't mention who rank easily above those guys. Why would you pick an aging, Norris-less Chara who was great maybe for two seasons over perennial contenders Pronger, Niedermayer, Zubov or likely future contenders in Phaneuf and Bouwmeester?

Luongo has accomplished far too little to merit a mention over other guys as an 'in the making top 5 all-time goalie' or even close.

Eva, care to address any of the comments I made about Con Smythe's, Playoff Wins, playoff OT records?

Roy didn't get the benefit of playing in the no tie NHL.

Brodeur consistently started more games throughout his career than Roy did, hence more chances for wins and more chances for 40+ win seasons. This is important because Roy didn't get less games per season because he was less of a goalie, it was because back then teams rotated their backup in more than they do today.

Look at their playoff save percentages, nearly identical. So even if Brodeur "stepped up" his game as you suggest, he only stepped it up to a level on par with Roy.

Brodeur's playoff win % = .573

Roy's playoff win % = .622

Brodeur had the benefit of no ties and playing in most of his teams regular season games, giving him a better chance of posting stronger regular season numbers.

Their regular season numbers are pretty darn close no matter how you slice it. And remember, Roy started earlier when the league had higher scoring numbers.

That being said, moving on to their postseason numbers, clearly, Roy has dominated in everything that counts, wins and OT wins. Their other personal numbers like save % are equal.

Roy is better than Brodeur

[stevkrause 1,247]

That is a load of bulls***. Both of those teams were among the league's best in the regular season. Those were also the only two seasons in his career Roy's regular season GAA was above 3. The Canadiens were among the best teams in the league DESPITE the fact that it was Roy's worst seasons. Roy won the Conn Smythe because he had a good playoff after a bad regular season in both instances, and him playing poorly or like his normal self was the difference between a very good team or a Cup-winning team. Roy NEVER carried his team to the Cup any more than Brodeur, Hasek, Vernon, Osgood, or Barrasso did. The one goalie I can think of who truly carried his team to the Cup was Bill Ranford, in his Conn Smythe season of 1990. And outside of that single performance, Ranford was an utterly mediocre goaltender.

What?? There are several ACTIVE players who I didn't mention who rank easily above those guys. Why would you pick an aging, Norris-less Chara who was great maybe for two seasons over perennial contenders Pronger, Niedermayer, Zubov or likely future contenders in Phaneuf and Bouwmeester?

Luongo has accomplished far too little to merit a mention over other guys as an 'in the making top 5 all-time goalie' or even close.

this WHOLE thread is subjective and nothing more than opinion - which are like assholes, everyone has one...

I think Chara is a whole different BREED of defensemen and will have an ever more storied career by the time it is over - he is JUST 30, that's aging? He's at his prime if you ask me... I think Zubov is a better defenseman, but I also think he's at the end of his career and I don't think he's already earned this slot, same thing with Neidemayer, the only reason I put Nick in the list already, is because he has already earned it 10 times over and when he finally hangs them up - he goes up to #1 all-time... I still think Phaneuf and Bouwmeester have a lot to prove... yet again - all subjective

As for Luongo - he most certainly has proven it as an "in the making" - he's not in my list of all time greats as you may notice - name ONE other goalie that is "in the making" that is more of a game stealing, impact goalie (and if you say Leclaire in his first season as a starter, I will automatically tune you out) Kipper is an argument, but he gets rattled too...

ALSO - subjective.

to add to eva unit...

Jagr is near the end of his career... i'd hardly call him "in the making"

yes, and in the making of being an ALL-TIME great... he still has at least 2 more good years in him... actually, I probably could've already put him in the ALL-TIME list now that I think of it... but who do YOU suggest he supplant on tha list? he's still active, so I put him at the end as "in the making" - we'll see where he ends it...

[BeeRYCE 2]

I knew I'd single handedly turn this into yet ANOTHER goalie debate, . My apologies.

I'll follow through with eva's initial post...

Center: 1)Gretzky 2)Lemieux 3)Yzerman 4)Messier 5)Sakic... (Crosby in the making)

Right Wing: 1)Howe 2)Richard 3)Bossy 4)Lafleur 5)Jagr... (Kane in the making)

Left Wing: 1)Hull 2)Lindsay 3)Robitaille 4)Bucyk 5)Mahovlich... (Ovechkin in the making)

Defense: 1)Orr 2)Harvey 3)Lidstrom 4)Bourque 5)Macinnis... (Phaneuf in the making)

Goaltending: 1)Sawchuk 2)Roy 3)Plante 4)Brodeur 5)Dryden... (Price in the making)

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Sawchuk, Plante, Durnan, and Dryden were all the best goaltender in the league every year for a period of several seasons; similar to what Hasek did in Buffalo. But those guys also won SEVERAL Cups and were the backbone of their team in doing so. With Durnan, he played seven seasons before abruptly retiring. he was named to the First Team and won the Vezina SIX times in his seven seasons. Plante won five Cups in a row and seven of eight Vezinas. In fact, the next guy on my list after Brodeur isn't even Roy; it's Glenn Hall. Roy comes in somewhere between 7 and 10, as does Dominik Hasek. Just because Roy played a long time and amassed a bunch of cumulative stats doesn't mean he was better than guys that chose to leave early whie still the best in the game (Dryden, Durnan) or guys who dominated the league every year for most of their career (Sawchuk, Plante).

Where I think you go wrong in this argument is saying that Roy's career is a result of longevity, while the other guys only played a short career, so their stats are more valuable.

The longevity of Roy's career undoubtedly padded his stats, but what's to say that if any of those guys played longer that they could have held up those same standards?

One thing that jumps out at me is over the course of his Roy missed the playoffs only one season, that's 18 out of 19 tries. Don't tell me he never carried a team. That stat alone provides you with enough proof that he did just that.