It's Time For Change

[Hank 0]

That's the funny part. The Wings do have a good N.A. presence. They have more N.A.'s than they do Euros. None of those teams can hold a candle to the Wings, they've all been crap, won a cup and back to crap again all while the Wings have won Cups and stayed 1 of the top 2 or 3 in the leauge for 15 years, that's why alot of Wings fans are spoiled. I could sit here and list off a bunch of players from Europe that were equaly if not more important to thier teams Cup win than there N.A. counterpart. Doesn't prove a whole lot. We won't even get into the heavy Euro presence that not only help win but also lead the Wings to 3 stanley cups, but than again that's not good enough for Wings fans anyway so it's not worth it.

No, it's not racist, it's Xenophobic is what it is. Most of your reasons seem to be based on personal feelings and perceptions of certain players than actually based on fact. You don't really know anything about what these players feel and what the cup means to them, you think you do but you've only convinced yourself of it. Let's take one quote out of context (could've been a joke, I mean Russians are also capable of a bit of humor if you didn't know) and take it as the gospel. It's a joke. Now if Joe Thorton, or J.R. says this it's funny and good for the game to have people like that to market.

No, a better economy and lower ticket prices along with not having two other great teams to choose from in the Pistons and Tigers to spend money on. I'm glad the fair weather fan is being driven off, good I prefer it. I mean, I can't tell you how many people on message boards, radio, and even at the Joe are simply talking out of their ass. Maybe it would help ticket sales, but that doesn't mean it'll help the Wings, and it sure as hell don't mean it's right. Let me guess the Tigers are too Latin American for you also, huh?

A poor econonmy sure didn't stop people from buying up every single U of M, Lions, Tigers and Pistons tickets did it?

People aren't showing up to the games because of a few things - complacency being one of them.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings have had issues selling tickets since guys like Stevie, Shanny and Mac have left town. It's a blue collar town and whether you want to believe it or now, guys like Pavel and Hank aren't considered blue collar.

And have you looked at our starting 18 lately? Out of our 13 forwards (including an injured Cleary) we have 5 NA skaters.

On our starting 6 dmen, we have 3 NA's. That's 8 out of 19 skaters. 9 out of 21 if you count the goalies.

For me, I'd love to get at least 2 NA's in our top 6 forwards. Europeans don't grow up dreaming about winning the Cup. It doesn't mean they don't want to, but in my opinion a Canadian kid or American kid will, most of the time, have more passion to win the Cup than some kid growing up in Stockholm or Prague.

And GoalieManPat, the reason why I bring up goaltending is because the last 5 years, how many times have we said "if we swapped the other teams goalie, we would have won". I think Ozzie is clearly the better of the two and I think he's very solid. But if the opportunity to upgrade this position, even if it means dealing away some younger prospects, is something the Wings should look into.

[OsGOD 3]

we should just go back to an all Russian squad... those boys to could skate circles around the Swedes...

I love red outs on the ice!

Lions are an anomoly for tickets they only play 8 games ALL YEARS pretty damn easy to sell out 520,000 seats over an 8 game period... that it is to sell out 902,000 seats overa 41 game season on all different nights. Football is on sundays only.. pretty much a damn easy day to get town to watch a game.

Oh and its football.

Pistons will continue to sell out because with the declining economy they lowered the post season prices... citing failing economy as a pressing point.

Edited February 11, 2008 by OsGOD

[Hank 0]

we should just go back to an all Russian squad... those boys to could skate circles around the Swedes...

I love red outs on the ice!

Ugh, I miss Vladdy. I loved that dude.

[OsGOD 3]

Ugh, I miss Vladdy. I loved that dude.

Yup that was a horrific loss for the sport of hockey.

[egroen 384]

When Lidstrom retires, unless Howard has proved to be elite at the NHL level, I hope they target a goalie at that time. I would rather they spend the Lidstrom money on a goalie, over any other position.

Until then, I am fine having an A goalie vs. an A+ goalie -- as long as we still have Lidstrom.

[eva unit zero 271]

A poor econonmy sure didn't stop people from buying up every single U of M, Lions, Tigers and Pistons tickets did it?

People aren't showing up to the games because of a few things - complacency being one of them.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings have had issues selling tickets since guys like Stevie, Shanny and Mac have left town. It's a blue collar town and whether you want to believe it or now, guys like Pavel and Hank aren't considered blue collar.

And have you looked at our starting 18 lately? Out of our 13 forwards (including an injured Cleary) we have 5 NA skaters.

On our starting 6 dmen, we have 3 NA's. That's 8 out of 19 skaters. 9 out of 21 if you count the goalies.

Of the 14 forwards, 7 defensemen, and two goaltenders: Cleary, Draper, Maltby, Drake, Downey, Ellis at forward. Rafalski, Chelios, Lebda, Meech on defense. Osgood in net. That's 11 of 23 players. Now let's compare with the Euros on the team. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Hudler, Filppula, Samuelsson, Franzen, Kopecky up front. Lidstrom, Kronwall, Lilja on defense. Hasek in net. 12 of 23 players, including five of the top six forwards, two of the top three defenseman, and one goalie who plays half the time. I would say Euros have been by far more responsible for the team's success. Not that the team wouldn't be served by getting a big, strong power forward in the top six...I just don't think you can say that it has to be a North American player to have a positive effect.

For me, I'd love to get at least 2 NA's in our top 6 forwards. Europeans don't grow up dreaming about winning the Cup. It doesn't mean they don't want to, but in my opinion a Canadian kid or American kid will, most of the time, have more passion to win the Cup than some kid growing up in Stockholm or Prague.

This was true over a decade ago, when European players were still new to the league, and had grown up never expecting to compete for the Cup. But the majority of European players in the league right now have been scouted at young ages and drafted at 18, often highly, and come over within a couple years of being drafted. These are players who have grown up in Europe with their eventual goal of competing in the NHL, and for the Cup. No player decides he doesn't care about championships, so if their goal is the play NHL..they are dreaming of winning a Cup. Russian leagues pay just as much or more for Russian players...yet players who go to Russia over the NHL are rare, and often a result of a massive contract disparity coupled with being expendable and/or easily replaceable such as Markov, Yashin, Morozov.

And GoalieManPat, the reason why I bring up goaltending is because the last 5 years, how many times have we said "if we swapped the other teams goalie, we would have won". I think Ozzie is clearly the better of the two and I think he's very solid. But if the opportunity to upgrade this position, even if it means dealing away some younger prospects, is something the Wings should look into.

There is not a goalie in the league who is an upgrade over Osgood and is acquirable with less than a 5m cap hit. Not one. So if you want to upgrade over Osgood, you had better be prepared to wave bye-bye to one or more of Kronwall, Cleary, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg and replacing them with one or more of Ellis, Hartigan, Quincey, and McGrath. Do you SERIOUSLY think that upgrading over Osgood would make enough of a difference to offset that kind of loss of a key player? I don't. Hopefully Holland doesn't either.

[Hank 0]

Yup that was a horrific loss for the sport of hockey.

It also broke my heart when I found out he got divorced.

I have no idea what happened between his wife and him and for all we know he told her to leave him to pursue a 'normal' life. But it just made me very sad for Vladdy, his wife and his daughter.

P.S. On a selfish note, I miss hearing that clip from Rocky 4 when they would talk about Vladdy on 1130 WDFN;

"Whatever he hits, he destroys!"

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Here me out before everyone jumps down my throat.

Depending on what happens in the playoffs, I think it's time the Wings took things in a different direction.

First, go out and sign Luongo. After this, maybe it's time we started trading some of our surpluss of European players for some North American's.

I know this is sacrilidge to some around here but perhaps giving up players like Filpulla and Hudler for some young, scrappy NA's would be better for our club.

I'm not saying this deal could ever go through but dealing away guys like Filpulla and Hudler (or one of the two) for a guy like Lucic would be awesome.

I love the way our team plays but it's obvious that you can win championships a lot easier with a good goalie, physical play and the trap.

I'm tired of our team being the only playoff contender in the league without a true great goalie.

Sign Luongo and go after some North American grit.

Leaving the goalie situation aside.

If this team did not have Samuellson, Hudler and Lebda, and instead had Jamal Mayers, Rob Niedermayer and Jason Smith type players instead, we would win the Cup no doubt in my mind.

Until we can get back over the hump and win with all these Euro's and smaller players, I will always think the Wings need more brute force and size to actually win the Cup.

We're 2-3 players away from the Cup IMO. And those players need to all be over 6 feet tall, over 205 pounds and be able to mix it up and play nasty.

If we win the Cup this year then I'll change my tune. But we haven't won a Cup since we had Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Rouse, Ward, etc....big players who could use their size.

Right now we have Homer and Franzen up front and Cleary I suppose. On the back end we have Lilja. That's not going to cut it.

The Ducks have 11 forwards at least 6-0 and 200 lbs. Their smallest players are:

Weight 5-11, 196, plays with an edge

Kunitz 5-11, 196, probably their best hitter

Marchant 5-10, 180

On D, Schneider is their smallest guy.

The other 6 guys average about 6-2 1/2 and 210lbs

That is a big ass team and they will beat us again if we don't get bigger.

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

you lost my attention after your failed spelling of "here" me out...

we have a good goalie, his name is ozzie

yeah because in your world everyone is perfect.

[Hank 0]

Leaving the goalie situation aside.

If this team did not have Samuellson, Hudler and Lebda, and instead had Jamal Mayers, Rob Niedermayer and Jason Smith type players instead, we would win the Cup no doubt in my mind.

Until we can get back over the hump and win with all these Euro's and smaller players, I will always think the Wings need more brute force and size to actually win the Cup.

We're 2-3 players away from the Cup IMO. And those players need to all be over 6 feet tall, over 205 pounds and be able to mix it up and play nasty.

If we win the Cup this year then I'll change my tune. But we haven't won a Cup since we had Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Rouse, Ward, etc....big players who could use their size.

Right now we have Homer and Franzen up front and Cleary I suppose. On the back end we have Lilja. That's not going to cut it.

The Ducks have 11 forwards at least 6-0 and 200 lbs. Their smallest players are:

Weight 5-11, 196, plays with an edge

Kunitz 5-11, 196, probably their best hitter

Marchant 5-10, 180

On D, Schneider is their smallest guy.

The other 6 guys average about 6-2 1/2 and 210lbs

That is a big ass team and they will beat us again if we don't get bigger.

I whole-heartedly agree. And because of that, some people here will tell us to sing our tune at the next KKK meeting.

Heck, even Jagr, while with the Pens, said his team needed more North Americans to win a Cup.

There's a healthy balance and I think our team teeters too much to Europe. 2-3 NA's who play prominent roles and we'd be set.

[bringback91 2]

A poor econonmy sure didn't stop people from buying up every single U of M, Lions, Tigers and Pistons tickets did it?

People aren't showing up to the games because of a few things - complacency being one of them.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings have had issues selling tickets since guys like Stevie, Shanny and Mac have left town. It's a blue collar town and whether you want to believe it or now, guys like Pavel and Hank aren't considered blue collar.

And have you looked at our starting 18 lately? Out of our 13 forwards (including an injured Cleary) we have 5 NA skaters.

On our starting 6 dmen, we have 3 NA's. That's 8 out of 19 skaters. 9 out of 21 if you count the goalies.

For me, I'd love to get at least 2 NA's in our top 6 forwards. Europeans don't grow up dreaming about winning the Cup. It doesn't mean they don't want to, but in my opinion a Canadian kid or American kid will, most of the time, have more passion to win the Cup than some kid growing up in Stockholm or Prague.

And GoalieManPat, the reason why I bring up goaltending is because the last 5 years, how many times have we said "if we swapped the other teams goalie, we would have won". I think Ozzie is clearly the better of the two and I think he's very solid. But if the opportunity to upgrade this position, even if it means dealing away some younger prospects, is something the Wings should look into.

Well how many games does U of M (football I assume) play a year at home or even close enough to drive too if you live around Ann Arbor? How many would you say that go to the games are aulmni? Your average Wings fan who's so blue collar as you say isn't going to have quite the income as a collage graduate from U of M, so their not going to have as much cash to throw around, but that's (collage football) really a totaly different animal than the NHL. Tigers are the new hot ticket and team in town. Talk about fair weather fans? And have you snuck a peek at their roster lately? it's not full of guy's named joe who used to work on Fords assembly line or anything. Besides, not too long ago they weren't lighting the leauge up to put it mildly, and weren't selling jack for tickets. A new stadium and a new found dedication to winning (something the Wings have had for many years now) helps your ticket sales alot. Pistons are struggling with ticket sales also, and that's in a sport that's WAY more popular than hockey, and a team can't get much more blue collar.

Really you can't dismiss the state this States economy is in, it's a very viable reason for slow ticket sales in anything, let alone a niche sport like hockey. You don't think Wings fans also suffer from a bit of being spoiled? I think it has alot more to do with having to win the cup every year than how many canadian's are on it. But this is also a whole nother topic.

So being 50-50 (N.A. to Euro) in net and on the blue line and 8 euro 7 N.A. on the forward roster isn't enough "balance". One thing seems clear with Babcock, you earn your ice time, he don't care if your European, Canadian, or from Zimbabwe the better player plays and that's how it should be.

The sooner they ditch this "OUR GAME" crap and realize it's a world game now and the NHL is where the best of the best should be the better it will be for the game and especialy the leauge. Take a look at the top 25 point getters in the leauge. More than half are Euro. Take a look at some of the best goalies in the leauge, you'll see a few birthplaces other than Yellow Knife. I guess I'm just weird, cause i want the best avalible player they can get out there on the ice, reguardless of where he's from. The thing about non- N.A. players not vauleing the cup just as much is a load of bulls***. Simple as that. Alot of these guys give up more money, their homeland, traditions, language, family, and alot of other stuff to play in the NHL. A three game losing streak will quickly remind one why he has taken a break from posting on here for a while.

[Turkey 0]

The attitude toward Europeans is mind-boggling. I hate our big soft Euros. Look at that softie Franzen. Geez! What a wus! That Holmstrom guy is a real cream puff too.

Honestly, I think asserting that a roster of Canadians will automatically win the cup is a short-cut to thinking.

[Hank 0]

The sooner they ditch this "OUR GAME" crap and realize it's a world game now and the NHL is where the best of the best should be the better it will be for the game and especialy the leauge. Take a look at the top 25 point getters in the leauge. More than half are Euro. Take a look at some of the best goalies in the leauge, you'll see a few birthplaces other than Yellow Knife. I guess I'm just weird, cause i want the best avalible player they can get out there on the ice, reguardless of where he's from. The thing about non- N.A. players not vauleing the cup just as much is a load of bulls***. Simple as that. Alot of these guys give up more money, their homeland, traditions, language, family, and alot of other stuff to play in the NHL. A three game losing streak will quickly remind one why he has taken a break from posting on here for a while.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. I would hate an NHL without great players like Gaborik, Datsyuk or Ovechkin.

The issue I have with the wings is that none of our top players are North American. Now that Cleary is out our top 8 forwards are European. On the back end, 3 or our top 4 dmen are European.

That's where the balance needs to change (IMO).

The Cup winning teams we had in 97,98 and 02 had a great variety of both. Stevie and Shanny were on the top lines. So was Mac and Lapointe in some variations. We had guys like Rouse and Macoun on our back end who could serve as 3rd to 6th dmen.

If you replaced Lilja, Hudler and Filpulla with O'Donnell, Malone and Hartnell I think our team would be a lot harder to play against and a step closer to the Cup.

PS: In my opinion, the NHL is suffering from the above reasons you mentioned. The NFL is a juggernaut for many reasons, but one of them is due to the fact that all the star positions are occupied by Americans.

Lastly, you're right that a lot of Euro's leave their homes and more money to play in the NHL. But there are a few Europeans that left the NHL for those reasons too. I've never heard of one North American that chose the RSL or SEL because he could make more money over there (and don't believe for a second that the offers haven't been there). The only reason a North American kid goes overseas is because he isn't given an opportunity here. They'll choose less money and a shot at the Cup over money in Europe every time.

[bringback91 2]

I whole-heartedly agree. And because of that, some people here will tell us to sing our tune at the next KKK meeting.

Heck, even Jagr, while with the Pens, said his team needed more North Americans to win a Cup.

There's a healthy balance and I think our team teeters too much to Europe. 2-3 NA's who play prominent roles and we'd be set.

No, I wouldn't say that your coming off xenophobic if you'd quit labling entire nationalitys and lumping them into catogories. I thought the Wings shook all these sterotypes last playoff, but I guess that's only with everyone else around the leauge except their own fans. I'm not ready for the Wings to change the philosphy they've had for damn near 2 decades cause of a loss to the GIGANTIC ducks one game in the regular season and a playoff series that could've went either way. But then again i like to watch hockey instead of roman grecko wrestling on ice. So there's no way to win if Kenny picks up 2-3 euros who play prominent roles? Lets say the Wings replaced Lebda with Doug Murray (not canadian BTW) and replaced Drake with Ivanans and Maltby or Ellis with jarkko ruutu?

[Hank 0]

No, I wouldn't say that your coming off xenophobic if you'd quit labling entire nationalitys and lumping them into catogories. I thought the Wings shook all these sterotypes last playoff, but I guess that's only with everyone else around the leauge except their own fans. I'm not ready for the Wings to change the philosphy they've had for damn near 2 decades cause of a loss to the GIGANTIC ducks one game in the regular season and a playoff series that could've went either way. But then again i like to watch hockey instead of roman grecko wrestling on ice. So there's no way to win if Kenny picks up 2-3 euros who play prominent roles? Lets say the Wings replaced Lebda with Doug Murray (not canadian BTW) and replaced Drake with Ivanans and Maltby or Ellis with jarkko ruutu?

The issue is that since our last cup we've added more Europeans and less North American's.

And the changes you've suggested would make our team worse. Ledba's better than Murray, Drake's better than Ivanas' and Maltby does what Ruutu does only has better hands.

Also, if you look back at previous posts I've made, before the 3 game skid, you'll see that I've been asking for more North American content since '03. The last two games (especially the TO game) is what got me started on going after a premier tender.

The Wings are definitely grittier and I loved how they showed that last spring. But if the Wings have trouble dealing with a club that 'wrestle's on ice' again, I think it's something we need to mirror a bit more.

[bringback91 2]

The issue is that since our last cup we've added more Europeans and less North American's.

And the changes you've suggested would make our team worse. Ledba's better than Murray, Drake's better than Ivanas' and Maltby does what Ruutu does only has better hands.

Also, if you look back at previous posts I've made, before the 3 game skid, you'll see that I've been asking for more North American content since '03. The last two games (especially the TO game) is what got me started on going after a premier tender.

The Wings are definitely grittier and I loved how they showed that last spring. But if the Wings have trouble dealing with a club that 'wrestle's on ice' again, I think it's something we need to mirror a bit more.

hey, i'm not the one crying about change. But for arguements sake, you and gordo watned to get bigger and gritter, with those moves you just did. How and what exactly are Drake and Maltby better at. PK's about all i can gather, and that's easily replaced from within. I'd take Murray over Rosie anyday, but really I can see it doesn't matter. Your dead set in your thinking as far as the importance to nationality, I just think it's silly instead of just cheering for the ducks, you want to replace the Wings roster and managment until it's just like thiers. Seems like a backward way of doing it to me. The whole goaltender thing I refuse to address, cause that's just as silly. I don't get it to each his own i suppose. All I'm going to say is if they make changes, i hope it's an upgrade no matter where their born.

[Hank 0]

hey, i'm not the one crying about change. But for arguements sake, you and gordo watned to get bigger and gritter, with those moves you just did. How and what exactly are Drake and Maltby better at. PK's about all i can gather, and that's easily replaced from within. I'd take Murray over Rosie anyday, but really I can see it doesn't matter. Your dead set in your thinking as far as the importance to nationality, I just think it's silly instead of just cheering for the ducks, you want to replace the Wings roster and managment until it's just like thiers. Seems like a backward way of doing it to me. The whole goaltender thing I refuse to address, cause that's just as silly. I don't get it to each his own i suppose. All I'm going to say is if they make changes, i hope it's an upgrade no matter where their born.

Yup, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

My mind is set that I believe, a majority of the time, a North American player will want the Cup more than a European. I know that's not the golden rule with each and every European or North American. But if I was a GM and I had a choice between two kids of equal skill, I'd take the North American each and every time.

[GermanRedWing 0]

Why after a rough patch of games do members in here want to completely dismantle the team? Especially a team that has taken care of business more often than not the entire season, and will go into the playoffs as a high seed?

And you know what? This team has had a 3-game losing streak already this year, and have managed to come through that just fine.

All teams, I don't care how good or bad you are, go through rough patches.

Why do people keep fighting the goalie tandem that Detroit currently has? Hasek is still extremely capable despite his "old age", Osgood is having one of his best seasons, either one of them can be a very capable starter in the playoffs. There's no point in talking about obtaining Roberto Luongo. He's untouchable for at least the next few years to Vancouver, and again why are people fighting the goalie tandem? It's the best 1-2 punch of goaltending in the NHL right now. And I am very content on having Osgood re-signed over the next few years.

As for switching Euros to North American players, who do you suggest? What would we have to give up then?

This team does not need a major overhaul completely getting rid of most of the current team. This is the same roster, for the most part, that went deep in the WC finals and if not for some bad bounces, had a good chance to play in the Stanley Cup Finals. This is the same team that did not get their butts handed to them "physically" by "physical" teams in San Jose, Calgary, and Anaheim. They are not going to just outhit you out of the building but it should be obvious by now that the Wings will be in games through a combination of skill/skating and hard work and not backing down. It happened last playoffs and I don't see why they can't do it again this postseason.

They just a guy or two for scoring depth on a 2nd/3rd line, and possible a low-depth d-man. That's it.

The Wings still have it going good so far in the grand scheme of things up to this point in the season. Enough knee-jerk overreactions when every team in the NHL struggles at some point.

I´m with you as far as the goalies concerned. Go into the playoffs with Ozzie and Dom. I wouldn´t resign Dom by the way. Let Howard take over.

But we definetely need to become more physical. We eliminated CAL and SJ but the Ducks did hurt us with their play. And other teams will follow.

We don´t need to dismantle the team. Samuelsson, Hudler, Franzen, Kopecky are expendable. We should be able to add some veteran scoring and some muscles.

[GermanRedWing 0]

Why after a rough patch of games do members in here want to completely dismantle the team? Especially a team that has taken care of business more often than not the entire season, and will go into the playoffs as a high seed?

And you know what? This team has had a 3-game losing streak already this year, and have managed to come through that just fine.

All teams, I don't care how good or bad you are, go through rough patches.

Why do people keep fighting the goalie tandem that Detroit currently has? Hasek is still extremely capable despite his "old age", Osgood is having one of his best seasons, either one of them can be a very capable starter in the playoffs. There's no point in talking about obtaining Roberto Luongo. He's untouchable for at least the next few years to Vancouver, and again why are people fighting the goalie tandem? It's the best 1-2 punch of goaltending in the NHL right now. And I am very content on having Osgood re-signed over the next few years.

As for switching Euros to North American players, who do you suggest? What would we have to give up then?

This team does not need a major overhaul completely getting rid of most of the current team. This is the same roster, for the most part, that went deep in the WC finals and if not for some bad bounces, had a good chance to play in the Stanley Cup Finals. This is the same team that did not get their butts handed to them "physically" by "physical" teams in San Jose, Calgary, and Anaheim. They are not going to just outhit you out of the building but it should be obvious by now that the Wings will be in games through a combination of skill/skating and hard work and not backing down. It happened last playoffs and I don't see why they can't do it again this postseason.

They just a guy or two for scoring depth on a 2nd/3rd line, and possible a low-depth d-man. That's it.

The Wings still have it going good so far in the grand scheme of things up to this point in the season. Enough knee-jerk overreactions when every team in the NHL struggles at some point.

I´m with you as far as the goalies concerned. Go into the playoffs with Ozzie and Dom. I wouldn´t resign Dom by the way. Let Howard take over.

But we definetely need to become more physical. We eliminated CAL and SJ but the Ducks did hurt us with their play. And other teams will follow.

We don´t need to dismantle the team. Samuelsson, Hudler, Franzen, Kopecky are expendable. We should be able to add some veteran scoring and some muscles.