Blake, Bourque, Foote

[wingsownnhl43 14]

I dont know how many of you remember when these three were together on the Avs, but when they were some people touted the Avs as possibly the best defense ever. My question is, how does our current defense compare?

Lidstrom is better than any of those three.

Id say Rafalski is better than Bourque was at that point in his career.

Kronwall has been playing very solid.

Stuart i feel is very underrated.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The best defense ever were the Canadiens in the late 70's, since those guys were all in their prime at that time. As far as currently, I'd say the Ducks have the best defense in the league, and anyone who argues that is a homer.

Also, I wouldn't say Rafalski currently is better than Bourque, when he was in Colorado. Bourque was still a great defenseman even then. Overall, I'd say our current defense is better than theirs was in 2001, but not by much.

[Opie 308]

The best defense ever were the Canadiens in the late 70's, since those guys were all in their prime at that time. As far as currently, I'd say the Ducks have the best defense in the league, and anyone who argues that is a homer.

Also, I wouldn't say Rafalski currently is better than Bourque, when he was in Colorado. Bourque was still a great defenseman even then. Overall, I'd say our current defense is better than theirs was in 2001, but not by much.

I would disagree with you, I think the Wings D when healthy is a tad bit better. I can see why personally you may see it the other way, because I don't think the difference is that great.

Lids > Neids

*Ralf and Pronger are really not comparable do to different styles of games but I would give the nod to pronger if pressed to compare them!

Stuart(Kronwall, same results) < <Pronger (If you wanted to compare similar styles or play)

Ralf > Schneids

Kronwall = Beachemin (hasn't really shown me much this year, but I haven't seen a ton of him)

Cheli > O'Donnell (He may not get credit but he is a damn fine defenseman)

Lilja > Huskins

Lebda < Huskins

An easier way to compare

Lids is by far the best D man of the group followed by

Pronger (this year)

Neids

Ralf

Schneids

Kronwall/ Beachemin

Cheli

Lilja/ O'Donnell

Huskins

Lebda/Meech/Quincey/Ericsson/Bergereon (only utillity Dman I know of on the ducks).

By the way (no shot at you GMR) I have been wondering this, if some one who thinks there team is the best at something (when it is a legit comparrison) is ahomer, what do you call people who are always saying it is some other team and those who think otherwise are Homer's!

It is like people use that as a tag line so no one will dispute what they say.

I am to ignorant (Or arrogant) to heed the warning and post my thoughts anyway, but I am just me!!!

EDIT: To me the Can of the 70's D is untouchable at worst. You would be hard pressed to find a better defensive team skill wise at the time and in all of these fad compare generation web polls!!

Edited March 13, 2008 by Opie

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I would disagree with you, I think the Wings D when healthy is a tad bit better. I can see why personally you may see it the other way, because I don't think the difference is that great.

Lids > Neids

*Ralf and Pronger are really not comparable do to different styles of games but I would give the nod to pronger if pressed to compare them!

Stuart(Kronwall, same results) < <Pronger (If you wanted to compare similar styles or play)

Ralf > Schneids

Kronwall = Beachemin (hasn't really shown me much this year, but I haven't seen a ton of him)

Cheli > O'Donnell (He may not get credit but he is a damn fine defenseman)

Lilja > Huskins

Lebda < Huskins

An easier way to compare

Lids is by far the best D man of the group followed by

Pronger (this year)

Neids

Ralf

Schneids

Kronwall/ Beachemin

Cheli

Lilja/ O'Donnell

Huskins

Lebda/Meech/Quincey/Ericsson/Bergereon (only utillity Dman I know of on the ducks).

By the way (no shot at you GMR) I have been wondering this, if some one who thinks there team is the best at something (when it is a legit comparrison) is ahomer, what do you call people who are always saying it is some other team and those who think otherwise are Homer's!

It is like people use that as a tag line so no one will dispute what they say.

I am to ignorant (Or arrogant) to heed the warning and post my thoughts anyway, but I am just me!!!

EDIT: To me the Can of the 70's D is untouchable at worst. You would be hard pressed to find a better defensive team skill wise at the time and in all of these fad compare generation web polls!!

I dont think our defense is better than Anaheims is. But one thing Id like to point out is that Beauchemin by all accounts has been ABYSMAL this year. Hes a shadow of the player he was last season. Kronwall >>> Beauchemin this season in a landslide, especially with Nik continuing to improve this season.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Just look at the goals against. Our D is better than the Ducks.

[hockey&beer 16]

Interesting question:

If the Duck's have the "best" defense in the league and the "best" positional goalie in the league, why are they not 1st in goals against in the league?

As has been stated many times in these forums, players on paper do not translate into an elite group. To evaluate a defensive core, the group has to be compared as a whole not individual persons. Not only that there are 3 other skaters on the ice that will also have a sizeable impact on the stats if that's what we are looking at. On top of everything, an elite NHL defensemen should be able to play with any other defensemen in the league and make that player better. Yes, Lidstrom is the BEST defensemen in the league, period. But Pronger and Nieds are both better than Rafalski. But as a whole the 8 "regular" D-men for the Wings are better than that of Anaheim.

I guess my final answer is.... I don't know.

[egroen 384]

Id say Rafalski is better than Bourque was at that point in his career.

Absolutely false.

Though I am still scratching my head over why his number was retired in Colorado... after 1 1/4 seasons. Give me a break.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I would disagree with you, I think the Wings D when healthy is a tad bit better. I can see why personally you may see it the other way, because I don't think the difference is that great.

Lids > Neids

*Ralf and Pronger are really not comparable do to different styles of games but I would give the nod to pronger if pressed to compare them!

Stuart(Kronwall, same results) < <Pronger (If you wanted to compare similar styles or play)

Ralf > Schneids

Kronwall = Beachemin (hasn't really shown me much this year, but I haven't seen a ton of him)

Cheli > O'Donnell (He may not get credit but he is a damn fine defenseman)

Lilja > Huskins

Lebda < Huskins

An easier way to compare

Lids is by far the best D man of the group followed by

Pronger (this year)

Neids

Ralf

Schneids

Kronwall/ Beachemin

Cheli

Lilja/ O'Donnell

Huskins

Lebda/Meech/Quincey/Ericsson/Bergereon (only utillity Dman I know of on the ducks).

By the way (no shot at you GMR) I have been wondering this, if some one who thinks there team is the best at something (when it is a legit comparrison) is ahomer, what do you call people who are always saying it is some other team and those who think otherwise are Homer's!

It is like people use that as a tag line so no one will dispute what they say.

I am to ignorant (Or arrogant) to heed the warning and post my thoughts anyway, but I am just me!!!

EDIT: To me the Can of the 70's D is untouchable at worst. You would be hard pressed to find a better defensive team skill wise at the time and in all of these fad compare generation web polls!!

Sorry Opie, I'm going with the Ducks because they have two elements that we do not have.

1. An incredible edge on us in size.

2. An immeasurably huge edge on us in toughness.

Yes, Lidstrom is better than Niedermayer or Pronger. However, Lidstrom and Rafalski are not better than Niedermayer and Pronger.

I'm not going to do a player by player because I think there's too many variables from one guy to the next depending upon who you pair up. We all know what type of game each guy brings to the table so I won't rehash that either. So let's just look at them as a group.

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Stuart

Kronwall

Chelios

Lilja

Lebda

Pronger

Niedermayer

Schnieder

Beauchemin

Marc Andre Bergeron

Sean Odonnel

Kent Huskins

Offensively there is talent on both sides. You can't say that Niedermayer, Pronger, Bergeron and Schnieder are any less potent than Lids, Rafalski, Kronner and Stuart (keeping in mind that Niedermayer missed 35 or so games).

In fact, I would argue that the Ducks D is more potent considering the huge drop off we have after Stuart. I'm sorry but Lebda's speed has not equated to points. And Lilja and Chely do not provide offense either.

You look at the middle of the Ducks corps and Beauchemin, Bergeron AND Huskins who has great speed and hands for a dman (anybody remember the move he put on us and scored with in last year's playoffs?)

That being said, Pronger, Niedermayer, Schneider, Huskins, Bergeron and Beauchemin are all capable of adding some offense, maybe not a ton more but when all 6 of your potential guys could add some "O", that's better than any 6 we could put out there given Chely and Lilja.

Defensively sure, we have Nick. And Raffi is very good in his own right. But again, you cannot find another team that has 2 shut down guys like the Ducks do in Niedermayer and Pronger. The rest of the corps on each side I think are very close. But if I had my druthers, I look at it this way.

I'd rather have Beauchemin and O'donnell over Lilja and Lebda. The fact that they have 2 guys in the depth spots that I'd rather have playing in place of 2 guys we do have is reason enough for me to think they are better than we are.

Then you move on to toughness and size and like I said its no contest, we lose.

Thankfully, we're a better team than them from top to bottom when you take the entire roster, both goalies and depth. Our size has improved and our grit has improved which really makes me think we can not only compete, but beat them.

The only thing that bothers me is that the playoffs just have a way of wearing us down. Alot of that has to do with size, strength and the physical beating that takes its toll on players.

PS. For those of you who can't tell or don't know me very well, yes I put a huge premium on size and toughness, especially come playoff time. And with both D's being so good, that's the edge I give to Anaheim.

Edited March 13, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I would disagree with you, I think the Wings D when healthy is a tad bit better. I can see why personally you may see it the other way, because I don't think the difference is that great.

Lids > Neids

*Ralf and Pronger are really not comparable do to different styles of games but I would give the nod to pronger if pressed to compare them!

Stuart(Kronwall, same results) < <Pronger (If you wanted to compare similar styles or play)

Ralf > Schneids

Kronwall = Beachemin (hasn't really shown me much this year, but I haven't seen a ton of him)

Cheli > O'Donnell (He may not get credit but he is a damn fine defenseman)

Lilja > Huskins

Lebda < Huskins

An easier way to compare

Lids is by far the best D man of the group followed by

Pronger (this year)

Neids

Ralf

Schneids

Kronwall/ Beachemin

Cheli

Lilja/ O'Donnell

Huskins

Lebda/Meech/Quincey/Ericsson/Bergereon (only utillity Dman I know of on the ducks).

By the way (no shot at you GMR) I have been wondering this, if some one who thinks there team is the best at something (when it is a legit comparrison) is ahomer, what do you call people who are always saying it is some other team and those who think otherwise are Homer's!

It is like people use that as a tag line so no one will dispute what they say.

I am to ignorant (Or arrogant) to heed the warning and post my thoughts anyway, but I am just me!!!

EDIT: To me the Can of the 70's D is untouchable at worst. You would be hard pressed to find a better defensive team skill wise at the time and in all of these fad compare generation web polls!!

Ducks fans.

I'm just kidding. Hey if you legitimately think the Wings defense is better, than that's fine. I just think the Ducks' defense is better on paper, and have a more multi-dimensional mix of size and skill, while the Wings are all skill on defense. Stuart is physical, but I've still never thought of him as a big strong defenseman.

I just don't like it when people suggest that the Wings defense is by far superior just because we have Lidstrom, or because our goals-against is lower. Let's not forget how often Lilja and Lebda have been known to give away the puck. I don't think anyone on Anaheim's defense is that accident prone, so you've got to look at the defense as a whole.

Also, I don't think you gave Bergeron enough credit, because he's got a cannon on the point, which we don't have outside our top 2 guys.

[Opie 308]

GS&T

All very good points and that is why in my original post I put I could see people going either way. It really is a preference, there are a lot of different things to look at when comparing them. And if you like toughness and I said I liked the puck moving ability, we would both be right based on our own criteria.

Similar to the Martin Havlat thing, I had no problem with you putting him on that list, you qualified your answer with your requirements for that list.

I do think their physicality was a problem last year, but not as much as DET missing two top dmen last year. Yet another dead horse argument (where is your jpeg).

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GS&T

All very good points and that is why in my original post I put I could see people going either way. It really is a preference, there are a lot of different things to look at when comparing them. And if you like toughness and I said I liked the puck moving ability, we would both be right based on our own criteria.

Similar to the Martin Havlat thing, I had no problem with you putting him on that list, you qualified your answer with your requirements for that list.

I do think their physicality was a problem last year, but not as much as DET missing two top dmen last year. Yet another dead horse argument (where is your jpeg).

True Dat!

The thing that I keep going back to thou is why do we do everything so well in the regular season and then fall short in the playoffs? Last year stunk because we lost Kronner and Schnides, which definitely put a kink into the puck moving aspect.

But come playoff time, I think the Ducks are just fine moving the puck. They don't have a bunch of hacks back there. And remember, one of the guys you say hurt us due to being out to injury, now plays for the opposition.

I think the puck moving aspect is a draw. Just my opinion. They got some fine puck movers in their own right although the bottom end probably doesn't move the puck as well as our bottom end guys do thanks to the system we employ which helps all our defenders move the puck.

So me thinks the toughness and size thing is going to be a factor again. Thankfully, we have Drake up front, Franzen really coming into his own, Cleary coming back and the gem in all of this, BRAD STUART!

If Stuart can clean up around the net and physically man up to Getzlaf or Moen or whoever is out there I love our chances. Just having one more 6 foot +, 200 pound + guy back there who likes to get involved can make a world of difference.

[imisssergei 0]

Sorry Opie, I'm going with the Ducks because they have two elements that we do not have.

1. An incredible edge on us in size.

2. An immeasurably huge edge on us in toughness.

Yes, Lidstrom is better than Niedermayer or Pronger. However, Lidstrom and Rafalski are not better than Niedermayer and Pronger.

I'm not going to do a player by player because I think there's too many variables from one guy to the next depending upon who you pair up. We all know what type of game each guy brings to the table so I won't rehash that either. So let's just look at them as a group.

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Stuart

Kronwall

Chelios

Lilja

Lebda

Pronger

Niedermayer

Schnieder

Beauchemin

Marc Andre Bergeron

Sean Odonnel

Kent Huskins

Offensively there is talent on both sides. You can't say that Niedermayer, Pronger, Bergeron and Schnieder are any less potent than Lids, Rafalski, Kronner and Stuart (keeping in mind that Niedermayer missed 35 or so games).

In fact, I would argue that the Ducks D is more potent considering the huge drop off we have after Stuart. I'm sorry but Lebda's speed has not equated to points. And Lilja and Chely do not provide offense either.

You look at the middle of the Ducks corps and Beauchemin, Bergeron AND Huskins who has great speed and hands for a dman (anybody remember the move he put on us and scored with in last year's playoffs?)

That being said, Pronger, Niedermayer, Schneider, Huskins, Bergeron and Beauchemin are all capable of adding some offense, maybe not a ton more but when all 6 of your potential guys could add some "O", that's better than any 6 we could put out there given Chely and Lilja.

Defensively sure, we have Nick. And Raffi is very good in his own right. But again, you cannot find another team that has 2 shut down guys like the Ducks do in Niedermayer and Pronger. The rest of the corps on each side I think are very close. But if I had my druthers, I look at it this way.

I'd rather have Beauchemin and O'donnell over Lilja and Lebda. The fact that they have 2 guys in the depth spots that I'd rather have playing in place of 2 guys we do have is reason enough for me to think they are better than we are.

Then you move on to toughness and size and like I said its no contest, we lose.

Thankfully, we're a better team than them from top to bottom when you take the entire roster, both goalies and depth. Our size has improved and our grit has improved which really makes me think we can not only compete, but beat them.

The only thing that bothers me is that the playoffs just have a way of wearing us down. Alot of that has to do with size, strength and the physical beating that takes its toll on players.

PS. For those of you who can't tell or don't know me very well, yes I put a huge premium on size and toughness, especially come playoff time. And with both D's being so good, that's the edge I give to Anaheim.

Agreed. It's tough to imagine the Ducks D being any better.

I think the biggest difference between the Wings and Ducks d corps is the lack of physicality in Detroits corp. Blah blah blah. The Wings don't have anyone as tough as Beauchemin, much more the less Pronger. Add in the fact that Scotty and Matty both play a rougher style than anyone outside of Kronwall, and it shows you just how much of a beating the Ducks d places on opposing teams.

[eva unit zero 271]

An interesting thing I think might affect this debate.

Pronger has been good offensively, but his defense has been severely lacking considerably. Niedermayer has been his usual reliable defensive self, but his offense has been far from what people are accustomed to seeing from him. And Beauchemin has been..well...horrendous.

Schneider is the only Ducks defenseman who's been playing to his ability at both ends.

By contrast, Lidstrom is having one of his better seasons, Rafalski and Kronwall are having career years, and Stuart is a solid #4 at both ends. And as far as the average performance over the past couple seasons, the two defenses are about even. So the Wings have the better defense THIS SEASON.

[Rice 42]

The Ducks' defense looks better on paper and probably should be better, but when they play I fail to see it.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

An interesting thing I think might affect this debate.

Pronger has been good offensively, but his defense has been severely lacking considerably. Niedermayer has been his usual reliable defensive self, but his offense has been far from what people are accustomed to seeing from him. And Beauchemin has been..well...horrendous.

Schneider is the only Ducks defenseman who's been playing to his ability at both ends.

By contrast, Lidstrom is having one of his better seasons, Rafalski and Kronwall are having career years, and Stuart is a solid #4 at both ends. And as far as the average performance over the past couple seasons, the two defenses are about even. So the Wings have the better defense THIS SEASON.

Eva, you are far too much of a stat guy for me to believe you didn't come up with your analysis based on actually watching Ducks games.

If DuckGuy can verify what you've said, then I will believe it. Because I don't believe for one second that you nor anybody else on this board watches Ducks games frequently. Why? Because I don't know why any Wings fan would want to watch the Ducks regularly, because you hate them? And I don't know why they'd want to stay up until 1:00 am for the damned things to be over with half the time.

I dunno, I need a non-redwings person to tell me how the Ducks d is playing. Maybe DuckGuy isn't the right choice but I don't know him very well so I can't say if he can be unbiased (YEAH) or if he's a total Ducks slappy (NOOOOO!)

edit: If there are any Wings fans that watch the Ducks regularly, and by that I mean you can tell me you've watched at least 40-50 of their games this year, please chime in on their dcorps play. Oh yeah, and please explain to me why the hell you're watching the Ducks so much.

Edited March 13, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[Yemack 1]

I don't really think you can compare players from different era. The game has changed alot as well ... but to answer the original question, our D is better than what Avs had in 2000 (or was it 2001)

I watched Ducks quite a few times this season and I think their D are very good as well. In terms of pure defensive awareness, our D men are better IMO. However Ducks play a different style and they are very effective in their own way.

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Ducks have better defencemen on paper but in reality the wings play better defence under babcock and or because of lidstroms leadership.

Also anaheim has a shut down line, (paulsson,r.niedermeyer, moen) and in my eyes the wings dont. But we do have pavel datsyuk.

[imisssergei 0]

An interesting thing I think might affect this debate.

Pronger has been good offensively, but his defense has been severely lacking considerably. Niedermayer has been his usual reliable defensive self, but his offense has been far from what people are accustomed to seeing from him. And Beauchemin has been..well...horrendous.

Schneider is the only Ducks defenseman who's been playing to his ability at both ends.

By contrast, Lidstrom is having one of his better seasons, Rafalski and Kronwall are having career years, and Stuart is a solid #4 at both ends. And as far as the average performance over the past couple seasons, the two defenses are about even. So the Wings have the better defense THIS SEASON.

So what defense do you want starting the playoffs? I'll take the Ducks corp, hands down.

I think Detroit's d corp benefits from a more sound defensive team, and a more efficent system.

[IceMunkee 15]

Ducks d better???

GA Det: 150 Ana: 167

PK% Det: 83.7% Ana: 82.3%

PIM Det: 796 Ana: 1,367

Don't let goonery be mistaken for talent.

[Rice 42]

Ducks d better???

GA Det: 150 Ana: 167

PK% Det: 83.7% Ana: 82.3%

PIM Det: 796 Ana: 1,367

Don't let goonery be mistaken for talent.

Don't forget about opposing shots on goal. Anaheim has allowed 2016 shots this year to Detroit's 1664.

[Opie 308]

Ducks d better???

GA Det: 150 Ana: 167

PK% Det: 83.7% Ana: 82.3%

PIM Det: 796 Ana: 1,367

Don't let goonery be mistaken for talent.

I didn't want to say it, but one of the reasons I think wings fans are so enamored with the Ducks D is that they are physical, they hit, smash, play on the edge. A lot of Wings fans have wanted to see that from the Wings, well since the end of the Avalanche rivalry.

So I think the bold part is what impresses a lot of people.

But here is what I and others thought about this issue at the beginning of the season.

Interesting how things turned out, things that make you go hmmm!!

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...;hl=neidermayer

It is amazing how much of a "HOMER" I was for actually believing the wings may be better than the Ducks, how dare I think that about the team I root for in the preseason and early season, when I should have been the anti-homer and said the duckies (with no neids and Teemu at the time) were the best ever. Good thing I wasn't right about the Wings being better than the ... oh wait nevermind. Now I am not saying the Ducks couldn't win the cup, but as far as regular season goes the Wings are the better team, well that goes for all teams in the league not just the ducks. I will say though that I had the Sharks as the favorite, egg on my face for that one.

It is amazing the number of "Experts" on this board that really missed this one!!

Edited March 14, 2008 by Opie