Lindsay on Vladdy

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Don't throw up yet, since I still have a year left before I fully get there.

[eva unit zero 271]

Konstantinov was "one of the best" at the time of the accident, not sure I would call him the best. He was also 30 years old at the time of the accident, I think it is pretty far fetched and, at a minimum, way too speculative to even suggest he could have won 8 or 9 consecutive Norris trophies seeing as at that point in time, he had zero. Pretty doubtful he'd string off 8 or 9 in a row between the ages of 31-40.

He's not the same age a Lidstrom, he's 3 years older and I think his level of play would have dropped quicker than Lidstrom just due to style of play.

Lidstrom has won five Norrises and was the top vote-getter among defensemen for the postseason all-star team seven times since the accident. Konstantinov had been fourth in Norris voting in 1995-96 and second in 1996-97. IMHO he should have won it both years, but did not for the same reason Lidstrom would lose the 98 and 99 Norrises; he's European.

Konstantinov finished top-four in Norris voting for the first time at age 29. Lidstrom did so for the first time at age 29. It is not unreasonable to suggest that Konstantinov COULD have remained the better defenseman for several years, as he was better at the time of his accident. As Lidstrom could be considered to have been named the best defenseman in the league by one measure six times in nine seasons since the accident, and never was considered outside the top five, only once dropping below #2, it is not far-fetched to suggest that Konstantinov could have won quite a few Norris trophies had he remained better than Lidstrom. In fact, had he remained better than Lidstrom for the entire period from 1997 to 2007, he would have won at least five Norris trophies. As Rob Blake only narrowly stole the 1998 Norris from Nick, and Nick was second the next two years as well, it is not far fetch at all to suggest that a defenseman who was better than Nick Lidstrom over that time period could have won more.

You have to remember, my statement started with the hypothetical based on Vladdy's maximum potential as judged by his ability at the end of his career and how Nick Lidstrom has consistently remained the league's top defenseman since Konstantinov's injury.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Lidstrom has won five Norrises and was the top vote-getter among defensemen for the postseason all-star team seven times since the accident. Konstantinov had been fourth in Norris voting in 1995-96 and second in 1996-97. IMHO he should have won it both years, but did not for the same reason Lidstrom would lose the 98 and 99 Norrises; he's European.

Konstantinov finished top-four in Norris voting for the first time at age 29. Lidstrom did so for the first time at age 29. It is not unreasonable to suggest that Konstantinov COULD have remained the better defenseman for several years, as he was better at the time of his accident. As Lidstrom could be considered to have been named the best defenseman in the league by one measure six times in nine seasons since the accident, and never was considered outside the top five, only once dropping below #2, it is not far-fetched to suggest that Konstantinov could have won quite a few Norris trophies had he remained better than Lidstrom. In fact, had he remained better than Lidstrom for the entire period from 1997 to 2007, he would have won at least five Norris trophies. As Rob Blake only narrowly stole the 1998 Norris from Nick, and Nick was second the next two years as well, it is not far fetch at all to suggest that a defenseman who was better than Nick Lidstrom over that time period could have won more.

You have to remember, my statement started with the hypothetical based on Vladdy's maximum potential as judged by his ability at the end of his career and how Nick Lidstrom has consistently remained the league's top defenseman since Konstantinov's injury.

The bolded statement: utterly impossible. Vladdy hit everything that moved. Absolutely no way he would have played til he was 40. I suspect he likely would have retired at the lockout, if not sooner due to being banged up. And Lidstrom started really hitting his stride 'round about 2000, when he was 30 and Vladdy was 33. Again: given Vladdy's runaway freight train style, he'd have been significantly banged up by the time he was 35 and we were enjoying the '02 Cup. Very likely to have suffered an injury in the five years between '97 and '02.

Both you and I are speculating, but I'm confident in saying your speculation is easily more farfetched than mine, by claiming that Vladdy would have remained in the elite ranks of defensemen up to age 40.

[egroen 384]

Chelios was never exactly a passive defenseman... and obviously has enjoyed a long career, barely losing to Lidstrom for the Norris at the age of 40. Bourque also, played very aggressive in his prime. Stevens retired after a full 22 seasons as well.

I think Konstantinov could have played until he was 40 (though who the hell knows), assuming he changed his style a bit like Chelios and Bourque did.

I could see him and Lidstrom trading Norrises back and forth a few times, with the edge to Lidstrom. Vladdy would be thought of as we think of Stevens, only better. Just think, maybe Pronger never would have won that Hart if Konstantinov was still around???

Edited May 14, 2008 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

The bolded statement: utterly impossible. Vladdy hit everything that moved. Absolutely no way he would have played til he was 40. I suspect he likely would have retired at the lockout, if not sooner due to being banged up. And Lidstrom started really hitting his stride 'round about 2000, when he was 30 and Vladdy was 33. Again: given Vladdy's runaway freight train style, he'd have been significantly banged up by the time he was 35 and we were enjoying the '02 Cup. Very likely to have suffered an injury in the five years between '97 and '02.

Both you and I are speculating, but I'm confident in saying your speculation is easily more farfetched than mine, by claiming that Vladdy would have remained in the elite ranks of defensemen up to age 40.

I only stated it was possible. When you consider that it's a guy like Ted Lindsay making the statement, someone who worked out regularly with Konstantinov and knew his physical conditioning, that brings a little more credibility to the possibility. I was simply explaining how the statement 'possibly the best ever if he were healthy' was not as ridiculous as some suggested. If Konstantinov remained healthy, and was able to maintain his level of play consistently, he would have won several Norris trophies. Stevens, Chelios, Bourque, Pronger are some guys who have enjoyed long careers of playing physical hockey with relatively little time missed due to injury. The argument that 'he played physical, he'd have retired by 35 because of injury' is NOT an infallible statement. And my whole argument was based on the premise of Vladdy remaining HEALTHY..which makes the 'he'd have been injured' statement invalid as far as a counterargument. He wasn't guaranteed to suffer major injury, as evidenced by many other top defensemen who played physical styles and have not suffered major injuries that caused them to retire.

So, assuming he remaing healthy, we can say that it was just as likely he would remain better than Lidstrom as not, correct? So while eight or nine might be unlikely, it is not an impossible situation and saying it could have happened if he avoided major injury is not far fetched.

Admittedly, it could be compared to saying 'If Ayrton Senna hadn't crashed into the wall at full speed, he could be the winningest F1 driver ever' because we don't know that he would have continued being among the best...but to say 'No, Senna couldn't possibly have more victories than Schumacher does' is silly because we don't know how those races Schumacher won would have changed had Senna still been around.

[Mikeal 60]

I only stated it was possible. When you consider that it's a guy like Ted Lindsay making the statement, someone who worked out regularly with Konstantinov and knew his physical conditioning, that brings a little more credibility to the possibility. I was simply explaining how the statement 'possibly the best ever if he were healthy' was not as ridiculous as some suggested. If Konstantinov remained healthy, and was able to maintain his level of play consistently, he would have won several Norris trophies. Stevens, Chelios, Bourque, Pronger are some guys who have enjoyed long careers of playing physical hockey with relatively little time missed due to injury. The argument that 'he played physical, he'd have retired by 35 because of injury' is NOT an infallible statement. And my whole argument was based on the premise of Vladdy remaining HEALTHY..which makes the 'he'd have been injured' statement invalid as far as a counterargument. He wasn't guaranteed to suffer major injury, as evidenced by many other top defensemen who played physical styles and have not suffered major injuries that caused them to retire.

So, assuming he remaing healthy, we can say that it was just as likely he would remain better than Lidstrom as not, correct? So while eight or nine might be unlikely, it is not an impossible situation and saying it could have happened if he avoided major injury is not far fetched.

Admittedly, it could be compared to saying 'If Ayrton Senna hadn't crashed into the wall at full speed, he could be the winningest F1 driver ever' because we don't know that he would have continued being among the best...but to say 'No, Senna couldn't possibly have more victories than Schumacher does' is silly because we don't know how those races Schumacher won would have changed had Senna still been around.

In all honesty he was a great playerr and an important part of this team and we should remember him for that, not the legal bs.....