Southern teams lining up to sell to Balsillie

[sergei_is_still_a_wing 1]

What's your point? Southern Ontario could support more than 1 team and probably more than 2.

How close are NYI, NYR and NJ again?

not to mention anaheim and LA.

i live in southern cali and am greatful i have two clubs to watch during the season but i still think two southern cali HOCKEY teams is dumb.

then again the kings have some crazy/devout fans. especially since they've sucked for 15+ years.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

They also said on the hotstove that JERRY BRUCKHEIMER wants to get a team in Las Vegas. Not only does that guy have a ton of money, but his name carries a ton of weight, and that team would get a ton of press for the NHL. I can imagine it would have off and on celebrity attendance.

Its an interesting thought. Also, if a team is to be moved, I wouldnt be surprised if its Atlanta. Of the southern teams that have a small fanbase and market, theyre the team that has done the least. One playoff serires in their history. The only team with less accolades is CBJ, and they have a decent fanbase.

[eva unit zero 271]

His shady because he wants to see hockey in his native land?!

I heart Mr. Balsille! Organizations like the Trashers and the Panthers are dragging the NHL down.

More teams in North! I am willing to put my life savings that a hockey team would be more successful in Milwakee/Green Bay then in Atlanta or Phoenix.

No. He is shady because he is trying to get assurances that his moving the team immediately will be approved before he puts down a cent towards purchase. That's like wanting to get the community board of a condo association to approve you moving one of the condos to another piece of land before you put down a single cent towards purchase. Not only is it completely against their policy, it sets a bad precedent.

All of the 'Hockey should be in Canada roar!' crowd doesn't seem to realize that if the NHL makes this exception for Balsillie, and then someone from, say, Kansas City wants to purchase the senators and move them right away, they have set the precedent that it is ok to do so.

The Panthers and Thrashers are not doing well compared to teams like the Wings, Leafs, or Rangers. Guess what? They are still doing better than Winnipeg, Hartford or Quebec ever did. Yet fans act as if those cities are entitled to hockey and places that better support their teams (like Phoenix, Florida, Atlanta, Carolina, etc) are not entitled to the same kind of respect and should be stripped of their teams.

And btw...Green bay could not support NHL hockey. Wisconsin is not a huge hockey state, and Green Bay is a very small market. Yes, the Packers have success. Why? because Football is #1, and the Packers are the most successful franchise in NFL history. The Edmonton Oilers are comparable...they have one of the more successful franchises ever, and are a franchise owned by a large number of locals. Edmonton wouldn't be able to support any other sport at the major league level. Had it not been for their run of titles in the 80s, some passionate fans, and some help from the league, the Oilers would have left Edmonton in the mid 90s. Edmonton is the only WHA franchise to have success after the merger, and as a result is the only one still in its original market.

Green Bay is behind Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, Flint, Lansing, Kalamazoo, and Toledo on the list of potential NHL cities in terms of viability. And that's just in (or near) Michigan. Other higher profile US cities that are probably more realistic destinations to receive an NHL team are: Houston, Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, Las Vegas, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, or Duluth.

But, if you're willing to put your life savings up...I will gladly take that bet. I could use some extra cash.

[Bluedevils_13 0]

Really though, Why does Florida, and California need 6 teams? Come on now.

[Hank 0]

No, it will be a team like Phoenix. Where hockey shouldn't ever have been.

By the way, I realize you were being sarcastic

Phoenix should be the first to go. Atlanta second.

Did anyone see the ticket revenue for the Coyotes the last two seasons?

$550,000 last season, $450,000 this year. That's a little over $10,000 generated in ticket sales per game. That's absolutely pathetic.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Hank

[DallasStars 0]

Phoenix isn't going anywhere. While their ticket revenue is down, their team is improving year after year. Also, as stated before their lease with that arena is out of this world.

Atlanta or L.A. get to steppin'. I would like to see a team back in Hartford or Winnipeg.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

No. He is shady because he is trying to get assurances that his moving the team immediately will be approved before he puts down a cent towards purchase. That's like wanting to get the community board of a condo association to approve you moving one of the condos to another piece of land before you put down a single cent towards purchase. Not only is it completely against their policy, it sets a bad precedent.

All of the 'Hockey should be in Canada roar!' crowd doesn't seem to realize that if the NHL makes this exception for Balsillie, and then someone from, say, Kansas City wants to purchase the senators and move them right away, they have set the precedent that it is ok to do so.

The Panthers and Thrashers are not doing well compared to teams like the Wings, Leafs, or Rangers. Guess what? They are still doing better than Winnipeg, Hartford or Quebec ever did. Yet fans act as if those cities are entitled to hockey and places that better support their teams (like Phoenix, Florida, Atlanta, Carolina, etc) are not entitled to the same kind of respect and should be stripped of their teams.

And btw...Green bay could not support NHL hockey. Wisconsin is not a huge hockey state, and Green Bay is a very small market. Yes, the Packers have success. Why? because Football is #1, and the Packers are the most successful franchise in NFL history. The Edmonton Oilers are comparable...they have one of the more successful franchises ever, and are a franchise owned by a large number of locals. Edmonton wouldn't be able to support any other sport at the major league level. Had it not been for their run of titles in the 80s, some passionate fans, and some help from the league, the Oilers would have left Edmonton in the mid 90s. Edmonton is the only WHA franchise to have success after the merger, and as a result is the only one still in its original market.

Green Bay is behind Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, Flint, Lansing, Kalamazoo, and Toledo on the list of potential NHL cities in terms of viability. And that's just in (or near) Michigan. Other higher profile US cities that are probably more realistic destinations to receive an NHL team are: Houston, Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, Las Vegas, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, or Duluth.

But, if you're willing to put your life savings up...I will gladly take that bet. I could use some extra cash.

I dont think thats necessarily true. I realize it is against the rules to move a franchise before you've made any initial investment into a franchise, but we're talking about one of the strongest - if not the strongest market - in the entire NHL. If a team wanted to move Ottawa to Kansas City, they'd likely have to find a way to prove that a Kansas City market could out-produce an Ottawa market - something thats damn near impossible. To say that a Hamilton team could out-produce the Atlanta or Florida franchise isnt off the mark at all.

What my concern is, is that there are a lot of owners ready to give up their teams. Why? Because a lot of the owners underestimated the NHL and didnt expect its net income to skyrocket as much as it has. Initially, Im sure a lot of owners were loving the cap because it meant a better balance between the money that they have to put into their team, and the money that stays in their pocket. At this juncture, many of the Southern owners are NOT happy with Bettman. Why? Because X small-market teams owner is pissed that he now has to put AT LEAST some 45 million into his team. Pre-lockout, Nashville was spending 23 million dollars on that team. Now theyre gonna be forced to spend double that, in only 5 years time. Even with the redistribution of income, a hockey team cant recover from that sort of fluctuation. Hell, in 2000, there were 5 teams that had a payroll in the TEENS.

Now, if somebody could make this clear to me, I would be appreciative, but if Balsillie did potentially move his team to Hamilton, it would have a positive effect on the net income of the NHL, but that would in turn cause the cap to rise, and ultimately the cap floor as well. If only ONE southern market owner can sell his team to Balsillie, and there are 5 or 6 more wanting to get out of their contracts but cant find a buyer, I cant imagine theyd put up with a relocation to Canada, which would require them to have to spend more on their team. And ultimately, its the owners that are keeping Bettmans butt in office. So does Bettman keep the owners happy by not allowing relocation and a subsequent sure-fire increase in the cap floor, or does he eventually approve a relocation, that nets his league more money?

[wingsdiehard13 33]

Phoenix should be the first to go. Atlanta second.

Did anyone see the ticket revenue for the Coyotes the last two seasons?

$550,000 last season, $450,000 this year. That's a little over $10,000 generated in ticket sales per game. That's absolutely pathetic.

That is exactly what I thought. However, DesertWing informed me of a major problem. The lease on their arena doesn't come up until 2033.

[eva unit zero 271]

Really though, Why does Florida, and California need 6 teams? Come on now.

Well, if we count Ottawa and Buffalo, since both draw heavily from Ontario for attendance...then why does Ontario need four teams (including a potential team in Hamilton) then?

California is three times as large as Ontario in terms of population. So if Californians only care about hockey to 33% of the degree Ontario residents do...then three teams is about right based on the current NHL. The Ducks don't quite have the fan support that the Kings and Sharks do, but then again, the Senators don't either. And all three California teams have better support than Winnipeg ever did. So don't give me the "Canadians LOOOOVE hockey and deserve it!" crap.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Well, if we count Ottawa and Buffalo, since both draw heavily from Ontario for attendance...then why does Ontario need four teams (including a potential team in Hamilton) then?

California is three times as large as Ontario in terms of population. So if Californians only care about hockey to 33% of the degree Ontario residents do...then three teams is about right based on the current NHL. The Ducks don't quite have the fan support that the Kings and Sharks do, but then again, the Senators don't either. And all three California teams have better support than Winnipeg ever did. So don't give me the "Canadians LOOOOVE hockey and deserve it!" crap.

But if you also take into account the American economy, particularly Californias real estate sector which has taken a huge hit, which thus brings up the issues of expendable income and also combine that with the likelihood that a California resident may only like hockey to 33% of the degree that Ontario residents do BUT would spend money on hockey a fourth of the amount Canadian hockey fans do, given that Hockey is Canada's #1 sport, but Americas #4 sport, then you are technically looking at a California population that should only have rougly 4/5 of a hockey team, and would only care about hockey 8% of the degree that Ontario residents do.

Edited June 4, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[DesertWing 11]

Phoenix should be the first to go. Atlanta second.

Did anyone see the ticket revenue for the Coyotes the last two seasons?

$550,000 last season, $450,000 this year. That's a little over $10,000 generated in ticket sales per game. That's absolutely pathetic.

Uhhhhhh.......$10,000 per game would mean the Coyotes average ticket price was less than $1. They do have the cheapest average ticket price in the NHL, but it's not THAT cheap.

The $450,000 is the average ticket revenue PER GAME, not per season.

[HenryMalredo 2]

I laugh whenever Balsillie is portrayed as an incredible Canadian patriot who wants more teams in Canada. He's just exploited this patriotic fervor about hockey to get his team in Hamilton. I doubt he cares if Winnipeg or Quebec ever get another team.

[BlakChamber 8]

Move the Panthers, they're a trash team. Nothing wrong with pheonix, they're better than some teams. People who say where hockey should or shouldn't be annoy me. It's stuck up people like you who keep hockey ratings around poker.

Yeah, I hate the whole hockey snob, "only cold weather cities deserve a team" attitude. It gets old, quick.

[eva unit zero 271]

I dont think thats necessarily true. I realize it is against the rules to move a franchise before you've made any initial investment into a franchise, but we're talking about one of the strongest - if not the strongest market - in the entire NHL. If a team wanted to move Ottawa to Kansas City, they'd likely have to find a way to prove that a Kansas City market could out-produce an Ottawa market - something thats damn near impossible. To say that a Hamilton team could out-produce the Atlanta or Florida franchise isnt off the mark at all.

What my concern is, is that there are a lot of owners ready to give up their teams. Why? Because a lot of the owners underestimated the NHL and didnt expect its net income to skyrocket as much as it has. Initially, Im sure a lot of owners were loving the cap because it meant a better balance between the money that they have to put into their team, and the money that stays in their pocket. At this juncture, many of the Southern owners are NOT happy with Bettman. Why? Because X small-market teams owner is pissed that he now has to put AT LEAST some 45 million into his team. Pre-lockout, Nashville was spending 23 million dollars on that team. Now theyre gonna be forced to spend double that, in only 5 years time. Even with the redistribution of income, a hockey team cant recover from that sort of fluctuation. Hell, in 2000, there were 5 teams that had a payroll in the TEENS.

Now, if somebody could make this clear to me, I would be appreciative, but if Balsillie did potentially move his team to Hamilton, it would have a positive effect on the net income of the NHL, but that would in turn cause the cap to rise, and ultimately the cap floor as well. If only ONE southern market owner can sell his team to Balsillie, and there are 5 or 6 more wanting to get out of their contracts but cant find a buyer, I cant imagine theyd put up with a relocation to Canada, which would require them to have to spend more on their team. And ultimately, its the owners that are keeping Bettmans butt in office. So does Bettman keep the owners happy by not allowing relocation and a subsequent sure-fire increase in the cap floor, or does he eventually approve a relocation, that nets his league more money?

I will keep it short and simple.

The NHL will not rule on a proposal to move until a sale has been approved.

The NHL will not rule on a sale until there is a binding agreement.

The NHL Board of Governors (AKA the owners) is the governing body that approves or denies such motions. Bettman has a very limited role in this process.

As far as the salary floor...teams receive revenue sharing based on their revenue and their market size

Teams that are in the top half of league revenues are not eligible for revenue sharing.

Teams in markets with more than 2.5m TV households are not eligible for revenue sharing.

Teams that do not reach 75% of capacity cannot receive revenue sharing.

And finally, teams that do not match the NHL's financial growth rate lose a percentage of their revenue sharing monies.

So ultimately, unless teams are struggling and failing to match the league's growth rate or failing to draw fans to games, they will always be able to spend up to the cap floor, no matter where it is.

And for these struggling teams, relocation and/or sale may be an option...but not without a good faith effort in the existing market.

[MacK_Attack 108]

Consider the population density of those three areas against southern Ontario. There's more people in NYC than there is in the whole of Southern Ontario, and possibly Ontario it self.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be or couldn't be a team in southern Ontario, just that the population density of that area may or may not support two NHL teams.

When Balsillie was trying to buy the Predators and he started taking season ticket deposits, they sold more deposits than they had seats for in Copps Coliseum.

There's a lot of money in Southern Ontario, and there's a lot of corporations that would sink a lot of money into seasons tickets for a team in Hamilton.

[betterREDthandead 58]

His shady because he wants to see hockey in his native land?!

I heart Mr. Balsille! Organizations like the Trashers and the Panthers are dragging the NHL down.

More teams in North! I am willing to put my life savings that a hockey team would be more successful in Milwakee/Green Bay then in Atlanta or Phoenix.

He's shady because of the methods he's used. I personally think it's shady to announce the move of the team before you even buy it. Selling "Hamilton Predators" season tickets before you even have the rights to do that is tampering and it's a slap in the face to Nashville fans. Swooping in to buy the Penguins not because they don't have fan support, but because they have arena issues, that's shady, and again, a slap in the face to a very old fanbase.

I don't want to ever see Sillyballs in control of an NHL team. It's one thing to dream about owning a team in your hometown. It's quite another to piss on established fanbases in order to do it.

[eva unit zero 271]

When Balsillie was trying to buy the Predators and he started taking season ticket deposits, they sold more deposits than they had seats for in Copps Coliseum.

There's a lot of money in Southern Ontario, and there's a lot of corporations that would sink a lot of money into seasons tickets for a team in Hamilton.

Thanks for making sure to use the term 'deposit' Mack. Most people around here are under the mistaken impression that Balsillie took complete payment for season tickets in excess of 14,000...rather than a small fraction of the cost as a completely refundable deposit.

The question, of course, is not really whether a team would survive in Hamilton. The question is, is Balsillie willing to follow the rules to get one?

Hamilton is capable of supporting an NHL team. So is Ann Arbor. So are the other cities that have been mentioned as interested. However, if those cities have an owner willing to play by the NHL's rules, neither city will end up with an NHL team.

[T-Ruff 47]

I hope he gets his team, via expansion or relocation.... He would make for a great owner and Southern Ontario could really use another team....

[betterREDthandead 58]

I hope he gets his team, via expansion or relocation.... He would make for a great owner and Southern Ontario could really use another team....

Come to think of it I wouldn't mind terribly if Sillyballs got ahold of an expansion team. That's better than him swooping in and stealing one. I think in the next 10 years the league should expand by 2, then put a halt to it for like 50 years.

[wingsdiehard13 33]

Come to think of it I wouldn't mind terribly if Sillyballs got ahold of an expansion team. That's better than him swooping in and stealing one. I think in the next 10 years the league should expand by 2, then put a halt to it for like 50 years.

Put one in Hamilton, and the other in.... Kansas City? Vegas? Other?

[betterREDthandead 58]

Put one in Hamilton, and the other in.... Kansas City? Vegas? Other?

Houston. It might be the South but I hear they have a thriving youth hockey program, they do tend to support the Aeros well, and it's the largest market without a team, and growing fast.

I think KC has some potential, especially with the sweetheart arena deal they're likely to offer, but if not Houston, I'd like to see the NHL gamble on Vegas. (HAR HAR.) It'd be the sort of bold, even ballsy move that the NHL needs to do and has a real chance to pay off big. (HAR HAR.) Come to Vegas, gamble, see a show, watch a hockey game. The team could sell tickets to casinos to comp high rollers with.

Otherwise....Milwaukee, Seattle, Portland.