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[stormboy 47]

the conversation has changed a bit since page two or so, but i just wanted to make a comment on the datsyuk and zetterberg being ranked higher than lidstrom debate. if i was a coach and i had to pick one of those players, i'd probably pick nick. but if i could pick two of those three, i'd probably get 13 and 40 rather than lidstrom and one of the others. now obviously that list is a rank of individuals. but, just my opinion: lidstrom>datsyuk, lidstrom>zetterberg, but datsyuk+zetterberg>lidstrom+rafalski (or whoever). >/< in terms of how much i would want them on my team. *shrug* but that's just me, and i've been wrong before. and again, this is *right now,* so i'm taking for granted that z and dats are in the prime of their careers and nick is in the dying days of his. five years ago, maybe different story. but if i had to start a team with players *right now,* that's my thinking.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Hypothetically speaking I agree with your thoughts. He very well could put up nice numbers.

On the flip side though, you are also talking about a BJ's team with a seriously defensive-minded coach in Hitchcock. You're talking about a team with very little offensive talent and even worse defensive talent. In my mind, Nick being a dman and all, no matter if his playing time were increased or he was "more heavliy relied upon" I think first and foremost he'd be focused on defense. That could mean he's less likely to jump into plays, and being that the talent is not there on the forward lines, his setups aren't going to Dats and Z or Rafs or to nice 2nd tier guys who can finish like Homer and Franzen. They're going to guys, other than Nash, that haven't really proven to be big time scorers.

If Nick could play 82 games with the current BJ's roster. I wouldn't be surprised if his numbers looked like this: 16 goals (he'd be shooting more b/c frankly he'd be the most dangerous guy out there other than Nash), 42 assists (way down due to lack of finishers up front) and maybe a +12. Those would be fantastic numbers on a BJ's team. Enough for a Norris vote? Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, thank God we have him and the BJ's don't.

This hypothetical reasoning is really starting to stretch. The bottom line is that *most likely* Lids' goals number probably improves while his assist total drops. With that, he'd likely be paired with Commodore who isn't exactly garbage (but nothing great either) who would help Lids by being a stay-at-home Dman (ala Lilja) and allow him to be more offensive. He finished plus 40 playing a solid chunk of 06/07 with Lilja and finished with that same number last year alongside Rafalski, which tells you alot about anybody he's paired with. Now, I know the offense in front of him has a big part in what a Dman finishes in the +/- category, but its not going to be the difference of 28 like you suggest. There are poor teams out there with Dmen that finish well ahead of their other pairings.

Lastly, while it obviously isn't as nice as moving pucks to Z, Dats, Hossa and Co., its not as if he's passing to a bunch of PeeWee's. He would still have a couple scorers and he would still QB a PP that would all of a sudden become much more of a threat. As you said though.....thank God we have him.

With that, I think this convo' has ran its course. Nice debating with you.

[norrisnick 1]

Eva, to be fair I never said my pick of AO was based on offense. I said it was based on goal scoring.

So your numbers have no meaning in this conversation. You got the wrong figures.

Goals, AO is an average of 15.3 goals ahead of the next 3 closest guys. In regards to Nick, 19, yes NINETEEN defenseman had more goals than Lidstrom last year.

Look, you want to look at Nick's overall game and say he's the best. That's fine, b/c he does everything better than any other dman. Personally, I think, and the stats bare this out, that there are many dmen that could replace Nick's offense and many that could replace his defense. There isn't really 1 that could do both equally as well but Phaneuf and Chara, even Chris Pronger come to mind. IMO, you can't replace an AO. Nobody is even close to him in the goal scoring department.

IMO, its easier to prevent goals than it is to score them. You can't teach what AO does.

For what its worth this is only my opinion. You're not going to convince me any more than I am you. I like your pick of Lidstrom, just not as much as my pick. Leave it at that.

You first.

If I had AO and Lidstrom on my team and had to replace one of them. Give me Ilya Kovalchuk. That would hurt the team the least.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, to be fair I never said my pick of AO was based on offense. I said it was based on goal scoring.

So your numbers have no meaning in this conversation. You got the wrong figures.

Goals, AO is an average of 15.3 goals ahead of the next 3 closest guys. In regards to Nick, 19, yes NINETEEN defenseman had more goals than Lidstrom last year.

Look, you want to look at Nick's overall game and say he's the best. That's fine, b/c he does everything better than any other dman. Personally, I think, and the stats bare this out, that there are many dmen that could replace Nick's offense and many that could replace his defense. There isn't really 1 that could do both equally as well but Phaneuf and Chara, even Chris Pronger come to mind. IMO, you can't replace an AO. Nobody is even close to him in the goal scoring department.

IMO, its easier to prevent goals than it is to score them. You can't teach what AO does.

For what its worth this is only my opinion. You're not going to convince me any more than I am you. I like your pick of Lidstrom, just not as much as my pick. Leave it at that.

Ovechkin as the best player just because he's a great goal scorer is like picking Bure because he was a great goal scorer. It's a bulls*** reason. You know better GST. Ovechkin is one of the best players in the league, but he's not the best. 65 goals or not, he's not the top player.