Hockey News Top 50

[Chelios57 31]

I was flipping through the Hockey News top 50 at the grocery store today and thought I would share:

1. Crosby

2. Ovechkin

3. Zetterberg

4. Datsyuk

5. Lecavalier

6. Lidstrom

17. Hossa

It looks like the Red Wings are finally getting the respect they deserve.

I'm sorry I don't have the whole list...

Let the comments begin...P.S. Only a few more weeks of these kind of threads.

Mind telling me where you saw it? I was at the Barnes & Noble in Troy today, and they were out of it.

[Doggy 130]

Lidstrom should have been #1 every year since 2002...

at least he's in the top 10 now, unlike most years

Ya reckon?? Even in '04??

IMO he wasn't even close to top ten in '04 let alone #1.

[Booster313 138]

Mind telling me where you saw it? I was at the Barnes & Noble in Troy today, and they were out of it.

Kroger's in Garden City...LOL

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Winning a Cup does wonders in these rankings...

I still do not think Z and D are better than Lidstrom.

QFT

While Z and Dats have more upside at this point in time due to their age compared to Lidstroms, if were talking about the Top 50 in the game right now, Lidstrom is not only ahead of Z and D but he's number 1 on that list. If you were to build a team around one player for the *upcoming season only* I don't know how Lidstrom isn't that guy.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Personally, I think Lidstrom is the best, but right now AO is absolute dynamite offensively, so he is of course gonna get the nod. But agreeing with NFM, I truely believe if a team wanted to WIN, most teams if given a chance would pick Nick Lidstrom first on any wish list. He is one of the top 3 defenseman all-time and with the premium for even slightly skilled defenseman going through the roof (Finger, Redden, even Campbell for Lidstrom money), you give anyone else a crack at Lidstrom for the two-year deal we just signed him to and you would see contracts that would make Mats Sundin's $20mil look like pennies. That said, if a team wanted to WOW the pants off their weak fanbase, Ovechkin would be number one purely because of explosive skill and charisma.

[Zion 93]

This is an unprofessional and biased post. Please forgive:

1) Ovechkin

2) Lidstrom

3) pavyaz is an idiot

4) /thread

[Dabura 12,232]

Re: Crosby

Did anyone actually watch the SCF?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

QFT

While Z and Dats have more upside at this point in time due to their age compared to Lidstroms, if were talking about the Top 50 in the game right now, Lidstrom is not only ahead of Z and D but he's number 1 on that list. If you were to build a team around one player for the *upcoming season only* I don't know how Lidstrom isn't that guy.

I have to disagree with you and Eva. No way is Lidstrom the #1 hockey player in the universe. That title belongs to Ovechkin. And for me that's a hard pill to swallow as I have been in the Crosby camp since day 1.

Lidstrom should always be the #1 ranked defenseman on any list. But there's a reason why he's never, nor has any defenseman in recent memory been plunked down in the #1 slot on any list of active players.

It's one thing to be in awe and relish the fact that we have the perhaps the greatest all around dman to ever lace up skates. It's another to take it to the homer level and claim he's the best player in the game, especially at his age. Lidstrom is not as infallible as people think he is. Just go back and watch all of our playoff losses and count the number of goals against he was on the ice for. He's always playing against the top liners and scoring always comes at a premium in the post season...so why is Nick's +/- nearly 1/2 the rate it is during the regular season. He's actually finished on the minus side in multiple playoff years. He's the closest thing to perfect but nobody is perfect.

1. Ovechkin

2. Crosby

3. Datsyuk

4. Iginla

5. Lidstrom

PS: For those of you who think i'm bashing Nick Lidstrom, please refer to those parts of my post that call him the #1 dman in the game before you lose your s***.

PPS: Any list that has Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the top 10 is a list worth reading. And that's saying alot, even for THN as most of these lists are s***e. They did a pretty decent job this year.

Edited September 3, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[egroen 384]

It's another to take it to the homer level and claim... [Lidstrom is] perhaps the greatest all around dman to ever lace up skates.

It's like bizarro homerism - Lidstrom is not the best in the game now (near his peak), but he is perhaps the greatest dman ever? Is Ovechkin better than Bobby Hull then?

I've seen too many of your posts to actually think you believe Lidstrom is greater than Orr, but the wording made me chuckle.

Edited September 3, 2008 by egroen

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I have to disagree with you and Eva. No way is Lidstrom the #1 hockey player in the universe. That title belongs to Ovechkin. And for me that's a hard pill to swallow as I have been in the Crosby camp since day 1.

Lidstrom should always be the #1 ranked defenseman on any list. But there's a reason why he's never, nor has any defenseman in recent memory been plunked down in the #1 slot on any list of active players.

It's one thing to be in awe and relish the fact that we have the perhaps the greatest all around dman to ever lace up skates. It's another to take it to the homer level and claim he's the best player in the game, especially at his age. Lidstrom is not as infallible as people think he is. Just go back and watch all of our playoff losses and count the number of goals against he was on the ice for. He's always playing against the top liners and scoring always comes at a premium in the post season...so why is Nick's +/- nearly 1/2 the rate it is during the regular season. He's actually finished on the minus side in multiple playoff years. He's the closest thing to perfect but nobody is perfect.

1. Ovechkin

2. Crosby

3. Datsyuk

4. Iginla

5. Lidstrom

PS: For those of you who think i'm bashing Nick Lidstrom, please refer to those parts of my post that call him the #1 dman in the game before you lose your s***.

PPS: Any list that has Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the top 10 is a list worth reading. And that's saying alot, even for THN as most of these lists are s***e. They did a pretty decent job this year.

I'm not going to go mental on you, but I do disagree with a few of your comments.

First and foremost, please tell me you're kidding with the bolded comment. To make an argument about goals being scored while he was on the ice against the other top lines of the leagues top teams is ridiculous. Of course goals are going to be scored against while he's on the ice. What player in the world doesn't have goals scored against his team while they're in? Now, look at those players and see how many goals Lidstrom prevented with his play. Not to mention that Lidstrom plays more per game than any other Red Wing so statistically he's is more likely to have more goals get scored against while he's on the ice than anyone else on the Wings. Every single player on your Top-5 list was on the ice for plenty of goals against during the playoffs, but Lidstrom prevents way more than any player in the world.

Now, this isn't even a shot....merely a question: What rationalization do you have for listing Ovechkin as the number 1 player in the world *right now*? Same goes for the other 3 you listed ahead of Lidstrom. Once I've heard from you, I'll be happy to list the reasons why Lidstrom is better right now than any of those four.

I have to disagree with you and Eva. No way is Lidstrom the #1 It's another to take it to the homer level and claim he's the best player in the game, especially at his age.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with it if were talking about the best player in world *right now*.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

When Yzerman was asked about him being the best player on the wings he would always stop and tell them that Nick was the best player. There that end the attempted hijack.

1. Ovech

2. Lids

3. Z

4. Dats

5. Luongo

6. Cindy

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm not going to go mental on you, but I do disagree with a few of your comments.

First and foremost, please tell me you're kidding with the bolded comment. To make an argument about goals being scored while he was on the ice against the other top lines of the leagues top teams is ridiculous. Of course goals are going to be scored against while he's on the ice. What player in the world doesn't have goals scored against his team while they're in? Now, look at those players and see how many goals Lidstrom prevented with his play. Not to mention that Lidstrom plays more per game than any other Red Wing so statistically he's is more likely to have more goals get scored against while he's on the ice than anyone else on the Wings. Every single player on your Top-5 list was on the ice for plenty of goals against during the playoffs, but Lidstrom prevents way more than any player in the world.

Now, this isn't even a shot....merely a question: What rationalization do you have for listing Ovechkin as the number 1 player in the world *right now*? Same goes for the other 3 you listed ahead of Lidstrom. Once I've heard from you, I'll be happy to list the reasons why Lidstrom is better right now than any of those four.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with it if were talking about the best player in world *right now*.

Let's just do Ovechkin

Offensive skill-Ovechkin

Shot-Ovechkin

Speed-Ovechkin

Physicality-Ovechkin

Strength-Ovechkin

Age-Ovechkin

Listrom is nearing 40 years of age. I'm sorry, he's the best defenseman i've ever seen but today, right now, he's not the best player in the league.

Everybody says that Ozzie looks better b/c he's surrounded by a great supporting cast. Everyone says that about every Wings player except for Lidstrom. Like he's some goddamn infallible God. You put Nick Lidstrom on the Columbus Blue Jackets and you will not see him win any Norris trophy. Now you put AO on any team in the league and he's going to challenge for the scoring title.

Of course what I just said is entirely pointless and what you are going to say is entire pointless as this is an un winnable debate. Nobody can prove definitely that either is better so this is basically an mental masturbation.

PS: And why is it only so definitive that Lidstrom is the best coming from Wings fans. What, like Wings fans are the only people in the know about NHL players? Is everybody on the THN staff so incompetent that they haven't named Nick the best player the past 5 years straight? Please, the amount of homerism/arrogance bandied about LGW when it comes to their own has almost reached Canuck fanboy status at times.

Mac, Wings fans aren't all knowing. Just because #5 plays for us doesn't mean he's the best player in the league. If AO was playing for us and Nick played for Tampa Bay you'd be singing a different tune.

Edited September 4, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[norrisnick 1]

Let's just do Ovechkin

Offensive skill-Ovechkin

Shot-Ovechkin

Speed-Ovechkin

Physicality-Ovechkin

Strength-Ovechkin

Age-Ovechkin

Listrom is nearing 40 years of age. I'm sorry, he's the best defenseman i've ever seen but today, right now, he's not the best player in the league.

Everybody says that Ozzie looks better b/c he's surrounded by a great supporting cast. Everyone says that about every Wings player except for Lidstrom. Like he's some goddamn infallible God. You put Nick Lidstrom on the Columbus Blue Jackets and you will not see him win any Norris trophy. Now you put AO on any team in the league and he's going to challenge for the scoring title.

Of course what I just said is entirely pointless and what you are going to say is entire pointless as this is an un winnable debate. Nobody can prove definitely that either is better so this is basically an mental masturbation.

PS: And why is it only so definitive that Lidstrom is the best coming from Wings fans. What, like Wings fans are the only people in the know about NHL players? Is everybody on the THN staff so incompetent that they haven't named Nick the best player the past 5 years straight? Please, the amount of homerism/arrogance bandied about LGW when it comes to their own has almost reached Canuck fanboy status at times.

Mac, Wings fans aren't all knowing. Just because #5 plays for us doesn't mean he's the best player in the league. If AO was playing for us and Nick played for Tampa Bay you'd be singing a different tune.

That's a very unfair system you've got there.

1. You should compare primary focuses of the player ie compare AO's offense to Nick's defense and vice versa AO's defense to Nick's offense. Primary focus is a toss up but Nick's offense is decidedly better than AO's defense.

2. Age is completely irrelevant. We're not ranking them for the next 10 years but right here and now.

3. If you toss in speed, physicality, and strengh you may as well toss in positioning, poke-checking, and endurance which Nick would easily win.

4. How about hockey sense? Lidstrom is the smartest player currently in the NHL and IMO 2nd only to Gretzky all time. My reasoning for this? He doesn't have any of the physical attributes you'd expect from an all time great. Physically Nick is decidedly average with the exception of endurance and hand-eye coordination. So what makes him speical? The stuff between the ears.

If you're going to compare completely different players you need to take into account their differences and find a way to achieve an honest comparison.

[eva unit zero 271]

I have to disagree with you and Eva. No way is Lidstrom the #1 hockey player in the universe. That title belongs to Ovechkin. And for me that's a hard pill to swallow as I have been in the Crosby camp since day 1.

Lidstrom should always be the #1 ranked defenseman on any list. But there's a reason why he's never, nor has any defenseman in recent memory been plunked down in the #1 slot on any list of active players.

It's one thing to be in awe and relish the fact that we have the perhaps the greatest all around dman to ever lace up skates. It's another to take it to the homer level and claim he's the best player in the game, especially at his age. Lidstrom is not as infallible as people think he is. Just go back and watch all of our playoff losses and count the number of goals against he was on the ice for. He's always playing against the top liners and scoring always comes at a premium in the post season...so why is Nick's +/- nearly 1/2 the rate it is during the regular season. He's actually finished on the minus side in multiple playoff years. He's the closest thing to perfect but nobody is perfect.

1. Ovechkin

2. Crosby

3. Datsyuk

4. Iginla

5. Lidstrom

PS: For those of you who think i'm bashing Nick Lidstrom, please refer to those parts of my post that call him the #1 dman in the game before you lose your s***.

PPS: Any list that has Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the top 10 is a list worth reading. And that's saying alot, even for THN as most of these lists are s***e. They did a pretty decent job this year.

The problem with your list, and these types of lists in general, is that they generally give too much credit to offense while giving too little credit to defense. A top 50 list with 35-40 forwards on it is pretty standard...but are you going to tell me that a guy who is an All-Star caliber defenseman and gets Norris votes (a top-10 defenseman) is not as good a player as a forward who, if all players were equally distributed, would not be the top forward on his team no matter which team that was? Sorry, that argument fails. While some eras, like the 1980s, have seen low relative quality at one position or another (goalies, in the case of the 80s) typically the 'elite' players are still there; a 'Top 50' list or a list of any other quantity involving multiple positions (F/D/G) should reflect this and be divided up accordingly.

Breaking it down even further, you should generally see the majority of the top-line forwards (top 90 F) first-pairing defensemen (top 60 D), starting goaltenders (top 30) ranked before you see the next group of forwards, defensemen, or goalies. Obviously there may be some overlap, but you shouldn't see twenty second-line forwards ranked ahead of starting goaltenders or first-pair defensemen.

But getting to my point...There are six players on the ice; so we'll do a top-twelve list. Breaking it down by position, we would have six forwards, four defensemen, and two goaltenders if we assume it breaks evenly. How many lists would fill out four defensemen in the top 12 players? Not many.

Is it that defensemen just aren't as good as forwards right now? Or is it that the 80s reminded people how enthralled they are with forwards and offense. If we jumped right from 1978 to 1995, Lidstrom would have three or four Hart trophies to go with his Norrises.

But we'll do it this way. In hockey, basically, you have Offense, Defense, Physical Play, and Intangibles (leadership, experience, etc.)

Given that we are comparing across positions, we'll compare as NN stated and match primary focus vs primary focus.

Ovechkin's offense vs Lidstrom's defense: Even.

Ovechkin's defense vs Lidstrom's offense: Edge, Lidstrom.

Physical play: Edge, Ovechkin.

Intangibles: Edge, Lidstrom.

Lidstrom wins 2 categories, Ovechkin wins 1. They tie in another. If it had gone like skill vs like skill, each player wins two categories and they're still tied. Hardly displays Ovechkin being 'clearly superior' unless you think defense is less important than offense. Most other players in this discussion would lose at least three categories to Lidstrom.

[Dawgs 0]

Jacques Lemaire was quoted during the 2008 playoffs as saying that if he was starting a team today, the first player hed choose would be Lidstrom. Id bet 9 of 10 NHL coaches would agree.

Offense is so overrated in sports. Whether its hockey, baseball, football or basketball, offense draws the fans, but defense wins championships. I watched some marvelously gifted Red Wings teams that scored goals in thier sleep in the early 90's, bow out early every year in the playoffs. When did they become Champions? When Bowman got them to play defense.

So imo, with all things being equal, the best defensemen in the NHL since Harvey and Orr, who has maintained a remarkably high level of play for almost 20 years, with multiple Norris trophys, should probably be considered at least the equal of the leagues current top offensive player but who isnt even the top offensive player in the last 20 years.

Lidstrom is a top 50 all time player. Ovechkin isnt there yet.

[norrisnick 1]

Jacques Lemaire was quoted during the 2008 playoffs as saying that if he was starting a team today, the first player hed choose would be Lidstrom. Id bet 9 of 10 NHL coaches would agree.

Offense is so overrated in sports. Whether its hockey, baseball, football or basketball, offense draws the fans, but defense wins championships. I watched some marvelously gifted Red Wings teams that scored goals in thier sleep in the early 90's, bow out early every year in the playoffs. When did they become Champions? When Bowman got them to play defense.

So imo, with all things being equal, the best defensemen in the NHL since Harvey and Orr, who has maintained a remarkably high level of play for almost 20 years, with multiple Norris trophys, should probably be considered at least the equal of the leagues current top offensive player but who isnt even the top offensive player in the last 20 years.

Lidstrom is a top 50 all time player. Ovechkin isnt there yet.

Top 20 and climbing.

[egroen 384]

You put Nick Lidstrom on the Columbus Blue Jackets and you will not see him win any Norris trophy.

There is no doubt in my mind Lidstrom would have a Hart by now if that had happened. Babcock himself said he always knew Lidstrom was good, but it took him a year of coaching here to realize just how good - and that is who Babcock has been campaigning for to win the Hart. Unfortunately (for individual accolades) Lidstrom is surrounded by a lot of talent each year, and his talent is not a flashy one that gets noticed right away.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The problem with your list, and these types of lists in general, is that they generally give too much credit to offense while giving too little credit to defense. A top 50 list with 35-40 forwards on it is pretty standard...but are you going to tell me that a guy who is an All-Star caliber defenseman and gets Norris votes (a top-10 defenseman) is not as good a player as a forward who, if all players were equally distributed, would not be the top forward on his team no matter which team that was? Sorry, that argument fails. While some eras, like the 1980s, have seen low relative quality at one position or another (goalies, in the case of the 80s) typically the 'elite' players are still there; a 'Top 50' list or a list of any other quantity involving multiple positions (F/D/G) should reflect this and be divided up accordingly.

Breaking it down even further, you should generally see the majority of the top-line forwards (top 90 F) first-pairing defensemen (top 60 D), starting goaltenders (top 30) ranked before you see the next group of forwards, defensemen, or goalies. Obviously there may be some overlap, but you shouldn't see twenty second-line forwards ranked ahead of starting goaltenders or first-pair defensemen.

But getting to my point...There are six players on the ice; so we'll do a top-twelve list. Breaking it down by position, we would have six forwards, four defensemen, and two goaltenders if we assume it breaks evenly. How many lists would fill out four defensemen in the top 12 players? Not many.

Is it that defensemen just aren't as good as forwards right now? Or is it that the 80s reminded people how enthralled they are with forwards and offense. If we jumped right from 1978 to 1995, Lidstrom would have three or four Hart trophies to go with his Norrises.

But we'll do it this way. In hockey, basically, you have Offense, Defense, Physical Play, and Intangibles (leadership, experience, etc.)

Given that we are comparing across positions, we'll compare as NN stated and match primary focus vs primary focus.

Ovechkin's offense vs Lidstrom's defense: Even.

Ovechkin's defense vs Lidstrom's offense: Edge, Lidstrom.

Physical play: Edge, Ovechkin.

Intangibles: Edge, Lidstrom.

Lidstrom wins 2 categories, Ovechkin wins 1. They tie in another. If it had gone like skill vs like skill, each player wins two categories and they're still tied. Hardly displays Ovechkin being 'clearly superior' unless you think defense is less important than offense. Most other players in this discussion would lose at least three categories to Lidstrom.

Clearly, by your own standards, neither player displays a definitive superiority over the other. So like I said, this is something that nobody can ever claim to be right at. Its an un winnable argument.

At this stage of their careers I take Ovechkin as the best. Why? Because Nick, as amazing as he is, plays on the best team in the league with 2 other guys in the top 10.

If you had to start a team tomorrow. A team that potentially was full of mediocre players. My money (and i'm a gambling man) would be on AO and his offense providing more wins in the current NHL than Nick and his defense. Hence, for me AO is the best player in the league right now.

Many will say Lidstrom. That's a great choice. Not mine but what can you do?

[egroen 384]

Many will say Lidstrom. That's a great choice. Not mine but what can you do?

No problem, and many teams in the East would agree with you

Lidstrom is clearly the best defenceman in the league, has been for years, and it is by a healthy margin.... it is pretty much without argument as well. Ovechkin has Crosby (who many believe is superior) and several others nipping at their heels... they are not head and shoulders above the rest of the forwards in the league. When you have someone like Lidstrom, who is so superior at what he does, like a Hasek in the late 90s -- that is where my first pick lies.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

No problem, and many teams in the East would agree with you

Lidstrom is clearly the best defenceman in the league, has been for years, and it is by a healthy margin.... it is pretty much without argument as well. Ovechkin has Crosby (who many believe is superior) and several others nipping at their heels... they are not head and shoulders above the rest of the forwards in the league. When you have someone like Lidstrom, who is so superior at what he does, like a Hasek in the late 90s -- that is where my first pick lies.

And that's a solid rationale. However, one must also take into account the level of quality players at that position.

Sure, Nick is head and shoulders above the rest of the D out there. But what if the new crop of forwards is just so great, does it really matter that they're all pretty close in ranking?

Imagine for arguments sake, if the 2nd best defesnman in the entire NHL was Aaron Ward. And Gretzky and Howe were both currently playing. By your analysis that would make Nick still the best player in the league b/c he's so far ahead of everyone else on D.

[eva unit zero 271]

Clearly, by your own standards, neither player displays a definitive superiority over the other. So like I said, this is something that nobody can ever claim to be right at. Its an un winnable argument.

At this stage of their careers I take Ovechkin as the best. Why? Because Nick, as amazing as he is, plays on the best team in the league with 2 other guys in the top 10.

If you had to start a team tomorrow. A team that potentially was full of mediocre players. My money (and i'm a gambling man) would be on AO and his offense providing more wins in the current NHL than Nick and his defense. Hence, for me AO is the best player in the league right now.

Many will say Lidstrom. That's a great choice. Not mine but what can you do?

So what you're saying is...

1) Anyone who picked Lidstrom for the top spot is clearly a homer.

or

2) Lidstrom is a valid choice for the top spot, I simply personally don't think so.

Well which is it? If it's the second one, you might want to stay away from sounding like the first one as you did in your initial post. If it's the first one...you're simply wrong. And here's why: The best player could be validly claimed as any of the top forward, goaltender, or defenseman if the positions are equally skilled in a season and there is no player who is clearly so dominant at his own position ahead of his peers that he must be considered the best. Lidstrom is the only player who is universally considered the best in those three categories; hell, he's the only one who's consistently been considered the best at his position in this THREAD. Crosby is obviously a common pick ahead of Ovechkin, and you have the Brodeur/Luongo arguments as well. So if we picked the 'best' player by how clearly he was the best at his own position, it would be Lidstrom.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So what you're saying is...

1) Anyone who picked Lidstrom for the top spot is clearly a homer.

or

2) Lidstrom is a valid choice for the top spot, I simply personally don't think so.

Well which is it? If it's the second one, you might want to stay away from sounding like the first one as you did in your initial post. If it's the first one...you're simply wrong. And here's why: The best player could be validly claimed as any of the top forward, goaltender, or defenseman if the positions are equally skilled in a season and there is no player who is clearly so dominant at his own position ahead of his peers that he must be considered the best. Lidstrom is the only player who is universally considered the best in those three categories; hell, he's the only one who's consistently been considered the best at his position in this THREAD. Crosby is obviously a common pick ahead of Ovechkin, and you have the Brodeur/Luongo arguments as well. So if we picked the 'best' player by how clearly he was the best at his own position, it would be Lidstrom.

Can Lidstrom be a good choice for the best overall player. I say yes. But have made it abundantly clear that in my view he is not the best player. He's a solid choice, meaning his name should be mentioned in the conversation of maybe 5 players. But he isn't the best..period. My point being that its a reasonable pick. Clearly I think those picking him are wrong but it isn't like they're picking Brian Rolston. Picking nick is reasonable at least.

The fact that I call some people homers for that pick has nothing to do with anything else. You cannot prove or disprove the validity of that comment. Nick can be a good choice and it can also be a pick influenced, even to some infinitesimally small percentage by homerism. Go outside of Wings World that we live in and see if Nick gets picked as much by fans around the league. He sure hasn't been picked by the people on the THN staff or any other hockey publication's staff as the best in any year. What does that mean? That Eva and Mac are the smartest people on the planet, the only ones savvy enough to be able to watch Nick and comprehend the subtleties of his greatness? And everyone else, these people who make their livings covering hockey are a bunch of know-nothing twits?

My two comments are not mutually exclusive. Thank you very much.

[eva unit zero 271]

Imagine for arguments sake, if the 2nd best defesnman in the entire NHL was Aaron Ward. And Gretzky and Howe were both currently playing. By your analysis that would make Nick still the best player in the league b/c he's so far ahead of everyone else on D.

For your example, please review my comments on 'positional weakness in a season' and then consider that currently, that is not what is occuring. For example...Mikael Samuelsson is a second-line caliber forward offensively based on total points and points per game, but he's also a defensive forward who gained several Selke votes and would play on most teams' PK units. But when comparing Samuelsson to defensemen...would you say there are 60 who are better players? how about 90? 120? The group of defensemen currently playing in the league is at least as strong as the group of forwards if not stronger, and Lidstrom still stands head and shoulders above them. The league's average talent level is higher than it has been since 1967, and yet Lidstrom still dominates at his position like no other can.

[eva unit zero 271]

the THN staff or any other hockey publication's staff

THN ranked Lidstrom as the third best Wing. That says all I need to know about what they know about Detroit; which is nothing.

A best players ranking should rank the players, basically, in order of the overall positive contribution they make minus the overall negative contribution they make. ANYONE who ranks Lidstrom as the third best Detroit player on such a list hasn't watched the Wings play in ten years or more, regardless of other rankings. Which makes any further rankings of Detroit players suspect.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

For your example, please review my comments on 'positional weakness in a season' and then consider that currently, that is not what is occuring. For example...Mikael Samuelsson is a second-line caliber forward offensively based on total points and points per game, but he's also a defensive forward who gained several Selke votes and would play on most teams' PK units. But when comparing Samuelsson to defensemen...would you say there are 60 who are better players? how about 90? 120? The group of defensemen currently playing in the league is at least as strong as the group of forwards if not stronger, and Lidstrom still stands head and shoulders above them. The league's average talent level is higher than it has been since 1967, and yet Lidstrom still dominates at his position like no other can.

Mikael Samuelsson got Selke votes? Ok Eva, you've basically just tossed my entire universe into upheaval. I'm going to have to take a break for a bit and try to rationalize what just happened.