Zetterbergs line

[Dawgs 0]

Zetterbergs in the midst of his worst three game stretch in the NHL. He looked a bit better last night but hes been way out of sync so far. His defense has been suffering too. Franzens looked pretty good but Hudler hasnt and it seems as if 3 games into the season Hudlers been demoted. The papers in Detroit today are saying that Cleary will be the new wing on that line. Last night they used Sammy there too. Babcocks response to this was he had some work to do in the morning.

Datsyuks line is looking better and better each game as they gain more experience together and they could turn into the most dangerous line in hockey but I think moving Zetterberg back to that line and putting Hossa with Fippula and Franzen would make for a much better one two punch. It weakens the third line a bit on paper but Sammy Hudler and Cleary had some fine moments in the playoffs last year.

The question is how long does Z's line struggle before Babcock revamps the lines and does he break up Hossa and Datsyuk to do it? And is Hudlers place in a Wings uniform in jeopardy with Abdlkader, Helm and Leino seemingly ready to play in the NHL now? Which one would be called up to replace Hudler if he is in fact traded or scratched for the majority of games?

[hoogs 8]

Hudler just isnt a top line player, I think Cleary will do much better on that line.

[Shutemdown 23]

Yeah, let's not jump the gun here...

Just because Lil' Huds got demoted doesn't automatically mean his head is on the chopping block. He got bumped to a higher line and found out that maybe he was better suited to play on a 3rd or 4th line. Personally, I always thought that he would be better and more dangerous on a 3rd or 4th line, so this is alright.

Cleary hustles his ass off and he deserves a spot on the second line. He's going to bring a lot of energy and pace to Z's line. I'm very excited to see this combo.

Zetterberg had a little bit more jump in his step last night. He was looking good. Just needs to get back into his groove. Maybe he should grow his beard back... he's always fierce with his playoff beard!

Franzen is an F'in TANK. He's got moves, AND he hits like 3 crossbars/posts a night. The man's a sniper. Can't wait until those pucks start going in. I'm VERY happy that he's keeping up his pace from last year... he's turning into a marquee power forward. (Too bad it's on a contract year.)

Hossa is finally stepping into his rhythm. I still can't get over how fast he is... Did anyone see when he gave up the puck while entering their zone, got it stolen from him, then just CHASED the guy down and got it back? He caught up to that dude in like 2 seconds! CRAZY!

My bad... it's early. Still waking up. Excited after a Wings win. Let's get 79 more W's!

[moocat 1]

It's going to take some time for Zetterberg to adjust.

You watch him play and see the places he's going on the ice and he's getting open and making plays but he's not getting the puck or players aren't there to do anything with it. Same thing on D.

That's nothing against Franzen and Hudler but they aren't the same players as Datsyuk and Homer. The chemistry between Z and D is inhuman and you can see that Hank keeps doing things expecting to give or get the puck like he would from Pavel but it's not happening. Also when you watch Hank you see him throw the puck on net a lot, and I believe that was because he new Homer was there and it always had a chance.

Hudler plays out on the perimeter more and while a good passer hasn't been getting the time and space he needs. While Franzen is a beast he doesn't set up in the slot like Holmstrom, and would rather move toward the shot for a tip instead of playing straight back to the net (don't get me wrong he'll do it just not as ofter as Homer). Also Franzen likes to cycle and drive which is what Zetterberg does so Hank needs to find his place when Franzen is taking it to net. Hank is going to have to adjust to the style of his new linemates and they are going to have to adjust to him.

Also lets be honest, when you swap Zetterberg for Hossa the top line isn't really getting much of a downgrade but swapping Pavel and Homer for the Mule and Happy is.

It'll come around but this is certainly a work in progress.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I can’t believe how quickly jump the gun. We’re even talking about the possibility of Hudler being traded or scratched? My goodness, we’re 3 games into the season and the questions are already being asked. So Hudler might not have any points yet, and Babcock might be thinking about switching the lines up a bit, but has everyone already forgotten how successful Hudler was in last seasons playoffs? He played extremely well during the time he was meant to be exposed for being too short and too slow. Well he proved the doubters wrong but it appears they’re already coming back.

And no we won’t see Abdelkader called up to take his place; the only way he plays this season is if we have another shocking run with injuries. Helm and Leino will both play a fair amount of games this season but it won’t be to replace Hudler, once again it’ll be to cover any injuries we happen to suffer.

The lines might not be connecting just yet but we really need to give them time. I don’t think anyone imagined just how different the lines would look at how much time they need to adjust. You could make a case for putting HZD back together but it would be a waste of the tremendous talent and depth we had at our disposal. Just think ahead to the playoffs and imagine how much trouble opposing teams will have attempting to defend all our scoring lines. Cleary-Filppula-Samuelsson as a third line? That’s amazing. Short term pain, long term gain.

[Heaton 1]

I like that Z can have 3 points in 3 games and still be in the midst of his worst 3 game stretch ever.

[Dawgs 0]

Who is jumping the gun? Im certainly not. Im just looking ahead as any coach or GM might. Im not being reactionary. Hudler doesnt look good on Z's line atm and Z himself hasnt played that well. The line hasnt been as dominant as it could be at either end of the ice, while Datsyuk's line is beginning to roll. The Freep article gave voice to what Ive been thinking and Babcocks answer was interesting. Im not calling for heads just discussing the play on the ice and any options we may have to counter with, if and when, Babcock and Holland make a move.

Im really disappointed in Hudler because Id like to see more skill and playmaking ability with Z then Cleary brings to the table. If Cleary doesnt work then where do you go? Benching or trading Hudler in favor of Leino could be a possibility. It would save salary cap if Hudler were to be moved. Maybe not so much this year as next, when we are trying to keep Hossa, Z and Franzen.

[Dawgs 0]

I like that Z can have 3 points in 3 games and still be in the midst of his worst 3 game stretch ever.

Where did those points come? The line at even strength hasnt been our best, or even second best. It hasnt created alot of chances outside of some fine, mostly individual efforts by Franzen. Z has an empty net goal and an assist on Franzens two goals, one of which was on the PP and the other was one of those goals the goalie would love to have back. If you look only at his points, yeah ok, hes not done too bad, but has he really looked good to you in these 3 games? Has he dominated other teams second lines? Has he played Selke type defensive hockey? Is this the Z you saw play in the playoffs? I see a guy doing alot of flailing around trying to figure things out. Hes been out of position alot. Watch the games not the stat sheet.

[Elshupacabra 0]

I like that Z can have 3 points in 3 games and still be in the midst of his worst 3 game stretch ever.

^THIS^

edit: YEAH! Zetterberg is doing TERRIBLE.

That Crosby too...he's only got 2 points

and Malkin....only 3

and Ovechkin!...the leading scorer in the NHL last year!? ONLY 2 points.

How are these guys still in the league?

Edited October 14, 2008 by Elshupacabra

[Dawgs 0]

^THIS^

Watch the games not the stat sheet. Hanks been invisible more often than not. An empty netter, an assist on the PP and an assist on a goal that was lucky to go in, dont always mean a player is at top form. Offense is only half the game as well.

[Elshupacabra 0]

Watch the games not the stat sheet. Hanks been invisible more often than not. An empty netter, an assist on the PP and an assist on a goal that was lucky to go in, dont always mean a player is at top form. Offense is only half the game as well.

It's been THREE games is the point...

Brandon Dubinsky and Aaron Voros are leading the league in scoring right now. That says something.

[Dawgs 0]

^THIS^

edit: YEAH! Zetterberg is doing TERRIBLE.

That Crosby too...he's only got 2 points

and Malkin....only 3

and Ovechkin!...the leading scorer in the NHL last year!? ONLY 2 points.

How are these guys still in the league?

Nice edit. About what Id expect from a 13 year old with low self esteem. Do you fit that description?

[Dawgs 0]

It's been THREE games is the point...

Brandon Dubinsky and Aaron Voros are leading the league in scoring right now. That says something.

Yea its been three games and Babcocks making moves. Im not railing on Z. You guys take one minor point and blow it all out of proportion. The point is the line isnt playing that well and it is enough that Babcock is changing it up.

[Elshupacabra 0]

Nice edit. About what Id expect from a 13 year old with low self esteem. Do you fit that description?

Is that how you like em'?

Yea its been three games and Babcocks making moves. Im not railing on Z. You guys take one minor point and blow it all out of proportion. The point is the line isnt playing that well and it is enough that Babcock is changing it up.

It's been three games that he's played on a new line. it's going to take a little bit to work up some chemistry. Same with Datsyuk and Hossa. There is no reason to assume that Zetterberg is in the midst of the worst three game streak of his career. The point I was attempting to make is that no one on any team is really clicking like crazy right now. There's nothing to worry about and there isn't any reason to press the panic button three games into the season.

Zetterberg is an all star player with a tenacious work ethic, he'll find a way to score goals no matter who he's on a line with.

[b.shanafan14 733]

As others have said, Z is still doing his thing and getting open or making plays, but he isn't getting the puck in those holes like he would on a line with Pav, which is totally expected. Same thing with Pav, he is still doing his thing, but sometimes Hossa doesn't seem to expect the puck in high traffic areas where Z is used to Pav threading the needle.

Personally, I think the real problem on Z's line is Hudler. I know he was awesome with less minutes, and he has some flashes here and there that show he may be capable of Z's line, but he isn't nearly as good in the corners and puck retrieval as Filppula or Cleary. Either way, we either need to stay the course and let them mesh more, or switch it up and hope for a spark from Cleary or Filppula.

Of course, I said from day one to leave DZH alone and put Hossa with Mule and Filppula, so there is that

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Zetterbergs in the midst of his worst three game stretch in the NHL. He looked a bit better last night but hes been way out of sync so far. His defense has been suffering too. Franzens looked pretty good but Hudler hasnt and it seems as if 3 games into the season Hudlers been demoted. The papers in Detroit today are saying that Cleary will be the new wing on that line. Last night they used Sammy there too. Babcocks response to this was he had some work to do in the morning.

Datsyuks line is looking better and better each game as they gain more experience together and they could turn into the most dangerous line in hockey but I think moving Zetterberg back to that line and putting Hossa with Fippula and Franzen would make for a much better one two punch. It weakens the third line a bit on paper but Sammy Hudler and Cleary had some fine moments in the playoffs last year.

The question is how long does Z's line struggle before Babcock revamps the lines and does he break up Hossa and Datsyuk to do it? And is Hudlers place in a Wings uniform in jeopardy with Abdlkader, Helm and Leino seemingly ready to play in the NHL now? Which one would be called up to replace Hudler if he is in fact traded or scratched for the majority of games?

I think we're fine. Game 1 showed that we were just rusty. Game 2 we looked better and Game 3 the Datsyuk line looked fantastic.

Dats is generating offense

Homer is scoring

Hossa is doing what we thought he would. He isn't denting the twine but his defense is solid and his creativity is already paying dividends.

As for the 2nd line it may just take some time but they are fine IMO.

Z got a goal last night. Franzen had 2 in game 2. Franzen looks great so far. Z looks just a step off but that may be becuase he has these new linemates and he's either doing too much or he's just not found his groove. IMO, he's looked pretty fine so far.

Huddles has been so so on that line. Not really standing out for me.

The third line I think has been fantastic. Sammy looks sharp, he's creating and protecting the puck well. I think Sammy's stickhandling in tight quarters is extremely underrated. He's very good in tight and at making people miss. Cleary is being Cleary, skating hard and working hard and Flip is doing so as well and getting on the score sheet.

IMO, Huddles may never live up to the talent he has but its only been 3 games. And i'm not a hudler supporter. But without a doubt he has instincts and good hands. Mule creating space on that line and going to the net and Z anchoring the line should make for a great 2nd line. It just takes time.

By the way, where is Eva. Eva is the staunchest supporter of Z around here and pretty much the only guy I know who thinks without a doubt Z is better than Datsyuk. I wonder what he thinks of Dats getting the nod as the #1 center and playing with Hossa.

I've always thought Dats is better than Z and probably the best all around player in the game for what its worth.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I think we're fine. Game 1 showed that we were just rusty. Game 2 we looked better and Game 3 the Datsyuk line looked fantastic.

Dats is generating offense

Homer is scoring

Hossa is doing what we thought he would. He isn't denting the twine but his defense is solid and his creativity is already paying dividends.

As for the 2nd line it may just take some time but they are fine IMO.

Z got a goal last night. Franzen had 2 in game 2. Franzen looks great so far. Z looks just a step off but that may be becuase he has these new linemates and he's either doing too much or he's just not found his groove. IMO, he's looked pretty fine so far.

Huddles has been so so on that line. Not really standing out for me.

The third line I think has been fantastic. Sammy looks sharp, he's creating and protecting the puck well. I think Sammy's stickhandling in tight quarters is extremely underrated. He's very good in tight and at making people miss. Cleary is being Cleary, skating hard and working hard and Flip is doing so as well and getting on the score sheet.

IMO, Huddles may never live up to the talent he has but its only been 3 games. And i'm not a hudler supporter. But without a doubt he has instincts and good hands. Mule creating space on that line and going to the net and Z anchoring the line should make for a great 2nd line. It just takes time.

By the way, where is Eva. Eva is the staunchest supporter of Z around here and pretty much the only guy I know who thinks without a doubt Z is better than Datsyuk. I wonder what he thinks of Dats getting the nod as the #1 center and playing with Hossa.

I've always thought Dats is better than Z and probably the best all around player in the game for what its worth.

I'm not Eva but I'll bite.

How long have you felt this way about Datsyuk? Was it before his transformation last season?

Up until last year Z was most certainly the better player between the two because his game was much more balanced and he could put it home with greater ease than Dats. Last year Dats completely revamped his game, upped the tempo and physicality, started shooting more and became an incredible two-way player.

Now that being said, there's a reason Z is out there to start 5-on-3 PK's with Kronwall and Lids. As good as Dats is on defense (and he is), Z is still the best defensive forward not only on the Wings, but IMO the entire world. As was aforementioned, even with Dats pulling the trigger more Z is the more natural scorer and will continue to lead the two of them in the goals department for the foreseeable future.

Areas they are a wash on: Physcial play, Holding on to the Puck

Areas Dats has on Z: Set-up ability, Takeaways (but that's debatable)

If you're going to use the fact that Dats is on the first line as a reason he could be construed as the better of the two, I'll respond by saying that he's on that line because Hossa is a natural goal-scorer (like Z) and as I said Dats is the better set-up man. For that reason alone it makes more sense for Z to center the other line, and you can't really have Hossa and Datsyuk on the second line after they were able to bring Marian in.

NOTICE: Before anyone goes mental on me, I have nothing but the utmost respect for Datsyuk and truly believe he's one of the most important pieces of this team. What he's accomplished and the change he's made in his game this past season has truly made him irreplaceable and one of the top players in the world.

I like that Z can have 3 points in 3 games and still be in the midst of his worst 3 game stretch ever.

Not to mention he's +2.

[Rivalred 630]

Nice edit. About what Id expect from a 13 year old with low self esteem. Do you fit that description?

So your trying to argue your point and result into personal attacks to make your stance even stronger?

My mother never made play dates with kids like you because if you did not get your way, you would take all the toys, get up, and leave.

Is that how you like em'?

Ha! Classic.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Rivalred

[zetterbergfan 23]

Zetterberg had no points, was a -1, had only four shots on goal, and got a penalty in three games 25-28 October, 2006 in the midst of a nine-game pointless streak with a -2 and six PIM.

I think he will somehow recover from this point-per-game, +2, 14 shots-on-goal tailspin that he is in.

[Third Man In 2,091]

Forget about Z after 3 games--the entire forward corps of the team is adjusting to new linemates. Developing chemistry takes time. That doesn't mean that Babcock shouldn't keep switching things around (it's always good to have players used to playing with different linemates in case of injuries or things getting stale). But I think 3 games is a bit early to judge the new line combos, or any individual player's performance with them.

[Kp-Wings 3]

The 2nd line would be better if Hudler wasn't on it (since I think Zetterberg could develop some good chemistry with Franzen), but the problem is that there is nobody else to put up there. Filppula is not a top 6 forward in my opinion, and Cleary has proven he does his best on the 3rd or 4th lines with guys like Draper and the like. So, who does that leave them with? Samuelsson?

I still don't think Hudler is a top line player. I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying that, especially because we're only three games into the season, but I just don't think he is. His best strength is on the PP, which really doesn't do much for his cause. But, because there really isn't anyone else to put up there, I guess that's the way it will stay. I just really hope Zetterberg can develop some chemistry with these guys.

As far as reuinting Zetterberg and Datsyuk, that'll only happen if the Wings go into a huge losing streak. I think it would be for the best, since those guys have as good as, if not better, chemistry together than anyone in the league, but Babock feels differently. Hopefully Hossa can fill that role.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm not Eva but I'll bite.

How long have you felt this way about Datsyuk? Was it before his transformation last season?

I've always felt this way about Datsyuk. Primarily b/c I think his offensive abilities are the best on the team. Z is more of a natural scorer but I think Dats is the smarter of the two. IMO, he knows better than probably any player in the league when the best time is to pass or shoot and if its shoot, what shot to take and where to place it. I think Dats' wrist shot is way underrated and is up there with Sakic's as one of the best in the league. Obviously his passing is second to none.

Defensively he did obviously step it up a few notches last year. IMO, you could put either one of them out there on 5-3's or any other defensive situation. I'm not Babcock and can't speak for him but if I were him, I would put Z out there first not b/c he's so much better than Dats. But b/c Dats is the better generator of offense and i'd rather him be used more for offense than for PK. Coincidentally their TOI is pretty much the same. So where others would see Z getting more time on PK as an indication he's the better defender. I think its a negligible difference and that Dats time is best used as the top center.

Also, Dats has always been healthier and has lead the team in scoring every year for how many years now? When he was trailing Z by a hefty margin last year I said he'd catch and eventually surpass him and he did. Why? B/c I think he's the better offensive all-around player.

Obviously this debate has raged forever and we're damned lucky to have them both but IMO, Datsyuk is the best forward on the Wings. It may not be by much but IMO he is. Of course that's merely my opinion.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I've always felt this way about Datsyuk. Primarily b/c I think his offensive abilities are the best on the team. Z is more of a natural scorer but I think Dats is the smarter of the two. IMO, he knows better than probably any player in the league when the best time is to pass or shoot and if its shoot, what shot to take and where to place it. I think Dats' wrist shot is way underrated and is up there with Sakic's as one of the best in the league. Obviously his passing is second to none.

Defensively he did obviously step it up a few notches last year. IMO, you could put either one of them out there on 5-3's or any other defensive situation. I'm not Babcock and can't speak for him but if I were him, I would put Z out there first not b/c he's so much better than Dats. But b/c Dats is the better generator of offense and i'd rather him be used more for offense than for PK. Coincidentally their TOI is pretty much the same. So where others would see Z getting more time on PK as an indication he's the better defender. I think its a negligible difference and that Dats time is best used as the top center.

Also, Dats has always been healthier and has lead the team in scoring every year for how many years now? When he was trailing Z by a hefty margin last year I said he'd catch and eventually surpass him and he did. Why? B/c I think he's the better offensive all-around player.

Obviously this debate has raged forever and we're damned lucky to have them both but IMO, Datsyuk is the best forward on the Wings. It may not be by much but IMO he is. Of course that's merely my opinion.

Same with me.

That being said, its tough to say that Z wouldn't have lead the team in scoring last season had he not gone down. The fact of the matter is he did go down and anything more is pure speculation, but chances are he would've.

Lastly, stating that Dats is the better generator of offense is debatable unless you're strictly talking play setup.

Good mini-debate.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Same with me.

That being said, its tough to say that Z wouldn't have lead the team in scoring last season had he not gone down. The fact of the matter is he did go down and anything more is pure speculation, but chances are he would've.

Lastly, stating that Dats is the better generator of offense is debatable unless your talking strictly play setup.

Good mini-debate.

Aren't we lucky that one of our biggest debates is over who is better between 2 of the best players in the world who happen to wear Wings sweaters?! We're lucky SOB's.

As for the offensive generator aspect, I am basing it on play setup. Both can carry the puck into the zone. Both make good passes and both can put he puck in the net. I just think Dats has the better vision. Frankly, I think Dats has the best vision in the league, which therefore means (to me) that Z has to be behind Dats.

We all watch the games. Think about it all the things the two of them do with the puck. And then think about how many times you go "OMG, did you see that!" I find most of the time I say that its in response to something Datsyuk has done with the puck. I don't think anybody creates more space and more out of nothing, especially in tight quarters than Dats. Whereas Z is more of a straight up and down guy who can zig and zag if need be, but primarily uses his speed and body positioning to work from the outside to the center. Dats on the other hand can work the puck and setup plays from anywhere at top speed or almost stationary.

Did you see the burst he put on last night after he backchecked and stole that puck in the neutral zone? He turne at the red line and 3 steps later he's at Mach 5 and the Canes are nearly toast. That's another thing about Dats that is underrated is his speed. He can absolutely turn it on if he deems it necessary. I think he doesn't b/c his vision is so good his brain is working faster than everybody else so his body doesn't need to. Gretzky was like that as well.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Aren't we lucky that one of our biggest debates is over who is better between 2 of the best players in the world who happen to wear Wings sweaters?! We're lucky SOB's.

QFT

As for the offensive generator aspect, I am basing it on play setup. Both can carry the puck into the zone. Both make good passes and both can put he puck in the net. I just think Dats has the better vision. Frankly, I think Dats has the best vision in the league, which therefore means (to me) that Z has to be behind Dats.

I agree that both *can* put the puck in the net and that Dats has better vision, however I do feel that Z is *better* at putting the puck in the net than Dats. Just like its no discredit to Z for his vision, similarly its no discredit to Dats for ability to put the puck in the net. They both excel, but one is better than the other in both departments.

We all watch the games. Think about it all the things the two of them do with the puck. And then think about how many times you go "OMG, did you see that!" I find most of the time I say that its in response to something Datsyuk has done with the puck. I don't think anybody creates more space and more out of nothing, especially in tight quarters than Dats. Whereas Z is more of a straight up and down guy who can zig and zag if need be, but primarily uses his speed and body positioning to work from the outside to the center. Dats on the other hand can work the puck and setup plays from anywhere at top speed or almost stationary.

I would agree that Dats probably has the "OMG, did you see that" factor going for him moreso than Z due to the shifty plays and spine-bending moves he can showcase, but to me that's only one side of it. I look at how strong Z is when he's got the puck and while I agree that Dats has become infinitely stronger on the puck this year, I still feel the puck stays on Z's stick longer *when players have collapsed on him*. This may not be a great explanation but Dats truly has a knack for stickhandling around and away from opponents, where as once a player is able to get to Z his strength seems to allow him to hang on to the puck.

I.E. Remember the game last year against the Jackets where the Wings were losing 1-0 heading into the third? Z split the defense with both of the players draped on him and muscled the puck 5-hole past Norrena (I believe it was Norrena, otherwise it was Leclaire). While Dats is strong on the puck, its plays like that where I feel Z is stronger.

Did you see the burst he put on last night after he backchecked and stole that puck in the neutral zone? He turne at the red line and 3 steps later he's at Mach 5 and the Canes are nearly toast. That's another thing about Dats that is underrated is his speed. He can absolutely turn it on if he deems it necessary. I think he doesn't b/c his vision is so good his brain is working faster than everybody else so his body doesn't need to. Gretzky was like that as well.

TBH, I don't think people underestimate Dats' speed. The guy has created tons of turnovers and beaten plenty of defenders only to have a clear one-on-one with the oppositions' goalie. However, you are right in saying that because of his vision and the fact that he's thinking the game so well that he doesn't showcase his speed as regularly as a guy like Draper or Cleary.