Ranking the Wings Forwards' Defensive Ability

[Opie 308]

Umm....I'd like to know how you know Z is better positionally?

If you lead the league in takeaways are you not in the best position of any defending player on the ice?

If you lead the Wings in blocked shots are you not the best forward on the team at getting in the way and being in the right place positionally.

Ever notice how many pucks Datsyuk knocks down in the neutral zone? Like the one he did against the Rangers in OT that won us the game? He knocks more pucks out of the air than any Wings forward. Is that not being in the right place positionally? Is that not knowing how to guard the passing lanes?

It's ridiculous to make a statement that Datsyuk isn't as good positionally since all he does is lead the Wings forwards in all departments that have something to do with being good positionally.

Oh yeah, and he comes off the walls with the puck more than anybody i've ever seen on any team. He snaps the puck away from the walls and into a position to head up ice with it or dish it off almost like its superglued to his stick. And down low he makes ridiculous passes to his defenseman to open up space for them.

There's lots of things NHL players can't do. There's not many things Pavel Datsyuk can't do. Hell, ask Gary Roberts and he'll tell you Dats will even punch you in the face if need be.

He's the most complete forward in the game, and likely the smartest. We look at his flashiness and takeways and we take it for granted. Just like we take for granted Nick's poke checking ability. It's so much better than anybody else and we see it so often we don't appreciate it enough.

Just for some reference here, so people don't think GS&T is a Dats slappy, it was him last year that at the start of the season started a thread saying Dats needed to step it up and that Center was the better position for him.

Correct GS&T, I just don't want people thinking all you do is say Dats is great the way some people just post about Z being robbed of the Selke every chance they get! Eva

[egroen 384]

Its impossible to argue that people DON'T get caught up in Datsyuks flashiness and that clouds the argument incredibly. Its also why Zetterberg can get the short end of the stick on these boards, but why Babcock would look to him over Datsyuk in the most crucial of situations.

It's not that it is necessarily "flashy", but it's that it almost always leads directly to a scoring opportunity (so it is more exciting) because Datsyuk's hits and steals are so unexpected (and of course because so many of them take place in their end or on neutral ice). Flashy is a bit of a strawman anyways, and implies Datsyuk is a prima-donna out there when he is actually extremely utilitarian and efficient when he needs to be. He is not out there hot-dogging it and cherry-picking... but I think you know that, and describing him as "flashy" just makes it easier to discredit him.

[jawbreaker 0]

Great posts GordieSid&Ted, egroen!

Datsyuk scores a lot of points, hits when needed, blocks shots, leads the league in takeaways & +/-, is right up there in assists, plays on the PK, doesn't take penalties, stays healthy, makes people say: omg how the **** he did that, gives 100% every shift.

It would be a crime to ask more.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If you lead the league in takeaways are you not in the best position of any defending player on the ice?

Oh yeah, and he comes off the walls with the puck more than anybody i've ever seen on any team.

There's lots of things NHL players can't do. There's not many things Pavel Datsyuk can't do. Hell, ask Gary Roberts and he'll tell you Dats will even punch you in the face if need be.

He's the most complete forward in the game, and likely the smartest. We look at his flashiness and takeways and we take it for granted. Just like we take for granted Nick's poke checking ability. It's so much better than anybody else and we see it so often we don't appreciate it enough.

Just for some reference here, so people don't think GS&T is a Dats slappy, it was him last year that at the start of the season started a thread saying Dats needed to step it up and that Center was the better position for him.

Correct GS&T, I just don't want people thinking all you do is say Dats is great the way some people just post about Z being robbed of the Selke every chance they get! Eva

Since Gordie is fond of doing this himself, I'm gonna have to call a slappy a slappy. Or more on point, if Gordie is saying Datsyuk's the most complete forward in the league, I'm calling him a homer. He may not have been to begin with, but he certainly is now. Post some of those statements about Datsyuk on hfboards where there's a league-wide perspective and see if everyone agrees.

Dats is definitely one of the best forwards in the league, but this thread has gone off-topic into a love fest based on a post that was about defensive play using bad statistics. Why not just rename it "Datsyuk is the greatest!"

Edited October 22, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[egroen 384]

Post some of those statements about Datsyuk on hfboards where there's a league-wide perspective and see if everyone agrees.

Bah! Most of the fans in the league think an "all-around forward" is one that hits and fights, not one that actually plays defense.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Bah! Most of the fans in the league think an "all-around forward" is one that hits and fights, not one that actually plays defense.

I don't think an all around forward has to fight (though it's a plus if they can drop the gloves if needed), but I think hitting should be a factor, which Datsyuk does.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Since Gordie is fond of doing this himself, I'm gonna have to call a slappy a slappy. Or more on point, if Gordie is saying Datsyuk's the most complete forward in the league, I'm calling him a homer. He may not have been to begin with, but he certainly is now. Post some of those statements about Datsyuk on hfboards where there's a league-wide perspective and see if everyone agrees.

Dats is definitely one of the best forwards in the league, but this thread has gone off-topic into a love fest based on a post that was about defensive play using bad statistics. Why not just rename it "Datsyuk is the greatest!"

Harold, you've been around long enough that I'd think you'd have seen the many posts I've made over the past 2 years about Datsyuk.

Sure, there's disagreement all over the place about who the best forward in the league is. Hell, there's disagreement here over who is better between Z and Dats.

I think Datsyuk is the best b/c he's the only forward I see (Zetterberg close behind) that can do anything offensively yet also is so good all over the ice that he won the Selke.

Is AO in the running for the Selke? Crosby? Lecavalier? Thornton?

IMO, the best forward is the one that has no weakness to his game.

All the others have weaknesses, most glaringly in the defensive aspects of the game.

What is Datsyuk's weakness?

The guy can score goals. He has a great shot, especially his wrist shot. He is arguably the best passer in the league. If not, he's the most creative. He owns the Selke. He bagged 97 points. His point totals have gone up how many years in a row?

Essentially, there is not weakness in the fundamental parts of the game when it comes to Datsyuk. He's proficient at everything from face offs to blocking shots.

Short of giving everybody an IQ test, its merely my opinion, based upon watching him play that his decision making is the best in the game from a forward's perspective. Hence, I say he's the smartest player. IMO, he does everything well, hence I call him the most complete forward in the game.

What other forward in the league can do it all? Zetterberg is the next closest.

By all means, instead of calling me a homer for the sake of "giving me a taste of my own medicine" why not dispute my claims.

You tell me what's wrong with Datsyuk's game. Sure, AO is a better goal scorer. Sure, Boogaard is a better fighter. That s***s elementary. Put the pieces together and show me a more complete forward than Datsyuk.

Just b/c people on HF boards might disagree doesn't make me a homer and doesn't mean they aren't a bunch of ******* idiots anyway. Frankly, considering the amount of dumb s***s just on the Wings board alone. I shudder to think how many nitwits there are on a board such as HF.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Harold, you've been around long enough that I'd think you'd have seen the many posts I've made over the past 2 years about Datsyuk.

Sure, there's disagreement all over the place about who the best forward in the league is. Hell, there's disagreement here over who is better between Z and Dats.

I think Datsyuk is the best b/c he's the only forward I see (Zetterberg close behind) that can do anything offensively yet also is so good all over the ice that he won the Selke.

Is AO in the running for the Selke? Crosby? Lecavalier? Thornton?

IMO, the best forward is the one that has no weakness to his game.

All the others have weaknesses, most glaringly in the defensive aspects of the game.

What is Datsyuk's weakness?

The guy can score goals. He has a great shot, especially his wrist shot. He is arguably the best passer in the league. If not, he's the most creative. He owns the Selke. He bagged 97 points. His point totals have gone up how many years in a row?

Essentially, there is not weakness in the fundamental parts of the game when it comes to Datsyuk. He's proficient at everything from face offs to blocking shots.

Short of giving everybody an IQ test, its merely my opinion, based upon watching him play that his decision making is the best in the game from a forward's perspective. Hence, I say he's the smartest player. IMO, he does everything well, hence I call him the most complete forward in the game.

What other forward in the league can do it all? Zetterberg is the next closest.

By all means, instead of calling me a homer for the sake of "giving me a taste of my own medicine" why not dispute my claims.

You tell me what's wrong with Datsyuk's game. Sure, AO is a better goal scorer. Sure, Boogaard is a better fighter. That s***s elementary. Put the pieces together and show me a more complete forward than Datsyuk.

Just b/c people on HF boards might disagree doesn't make me a homer and doesn't mean they aren't a bunch of ******* idiots anyway. Frankly, considering the amount of dumb s***s just on the Wings board alone. I shudder to think how many nitwits there are on a board such as HF.

oooh, the irony...

Datsyuk doesn't have any glaring weaknesses in his game. If Datsyuk is the best, then what is the weakness in Zetterberg's game exactly?

And you can use the Selke to rule out everyone else's defensive game, but it was Datsyuk's gaudy takeaway stat that put him over the top more than anything. A great defensive player on a great defensive team.

The trouble with saying someone is the most complete player in the league is it has to do with the team as well. You put Vinnie Lecavalier on the Wings, he's going to be as complete as Datsyuk and Z, plus being more physical, having a cannon of a slapshot, dropping the gloves when necessary, and bringing leadership. Lecavalier is already a very good two-way player and thats' on friggin' Tampa Bay. Can you imagine if he had been brought up in the Detroit system like Datsyuk had? If he had the great defensemen and two-way forwards that Detroit has? Right now he's a great player on an awful team.

you arguing the homer philosophy is hilarious. There are a high percentage of dumbs***s across hfboards, but there are also a lot of informed hockey fans. And all the dumbs***s from every team tend to cancel each other out, and you can get a sense for a more league wide opinion.

I know, I know. When someone here disagrees with you about a Wings player, it's because they're a homer. When it's you though, it's the fans from around the league who are nitwits.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I did a little run down of some players that often get mentioned for best in the game. Certainly there are others and if anyone wants to include them (say an Alfredsson or Spezza, I invite you to go get their goddamned stats yourself )

Anyway, this isn't meant to be anything definitive nor does it take into account games played (although health should be a factor in any equation)

The past 2 seasons (8 points for 1st, 1 point for 8th)

Points

Thornton 210

Ovechkin 204

Lecavalier 200

Crosby 192

Iginla 192

Malkin 191

Datsyuk 184

Zetterberg 160

Goals

Ovechkin 111

Lecavalier 92

Iginla 89

Malkin 80

Zetterberg 76

Crosby 60

Datsyuk 58

Thornton 51

Assists

Thornton 159

Crosby 132

Datsyuk 126

Malkin 111

Lecavalier 108

Iginla 103

Ovechkin 93

Zetterberg 84

+/-

Datsyuk +77

Zetterberg +56

Thornton +42

Iginla +39

Crosby +28

Malkin +18

Ovechkin +9

Lecavalier -15

Face/Off (I included this as 6 of the 8 are centers. Sort of an unfair stat but considering we're talking about who may be the most complete player, the ability to win faceoffs adds to a player's overall skill set. Of course both Iggy and AO have taken faceoffs but not nearly as many so I just put them at the bottom.

Datsyuk 55.3

Zetterberg 53.8

Thornton 52

Crosby 50.6

Lecavalier 47.7

Malkin 41.3

AO n/a 2pts

Iginla n/a 2pts

Ice Time: Where we seperate the one dimensional players from the complete players (since all of these guys play about 21 minutes/night give or take and they are all offensively gifted. Look at their PK time/game you get an idea of which players can be used in all situations. Not surprisingly, Zetterberg and Datsyuk lead the way, and only Lecavalier averages over a minute/game. The others barely get PK time at all. I think that's a strong indication that they are not nearly the defensive players the others are and frankly, in my mind that eliminates them from the equation of most complete player as offensively, some may be better at assisting or scoring but in general, their offensive stats are not far off from 1st to 8th place.)

PK Time

Zetterberg 2:30

Datsyuk 1:51

Lecavalier 1:32

Iginla 0:74

Malkin 0:37.5

Thornton 0:30.5

Crosby 0:28

Ovechkin 0:10

Final Scores (8points for 1st, 1 point for last)

Datsyuk 33

Thornton 32

Zetterberg 28

Lecavalier 28

Crosby 25

Iginla 25

Malkin 23

Ovechkin 22

So what does it all mean? HELL IF I KNOW!!!

Seriously, what I think this might show is that as great as it is to bag 65 goals, if you can only play 10 seconds on the P/K you aren't a complete player. I think it shows that you can score over 100 points a year but if you do that and you're still a minus player, then your defense needs alot of work. etc, etc.....Obviously somebody else can use different numbers to come up with different results.

Personally, I like my results b/c they coincide with my opinion. LOL. And to be completely honest, I had no idea how this was going to work out. I just picked offensive and defensive stats and rolled with it and voila! Dats ended up on top. I'm a genius.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

oooh, the irony...

Datsyuk doesn't have any glaring weaknesses in his game. If Datsyuk is the best, then what is the weakness in Zetterberg's game exactly?

And you can use the Selke to rule out everyone else's defensive game, but it was Datsyuk's gaudy takeaway stat that put him over the top more than anything. A great defensive player on a great defensive team.

The trouble with saying someone is the most complete player in the league is it has to do with the team as well. You put Vinnie Lecavalier on the Wings, he's going to be as complete as Datsyuk and Z, plus being more physical, having a cannon of a slapshot, dropping the gloves when necessary, and bringing leadership. Lecavalier is already a very good two-way player and thats' on friggin' Tampa Bay. Can you imagine if he had been brought up in the Detroit system like Datsyuk had? If he had the great defensemen and two-way forwards that Detroit has? Right now he's a great player on an awful team.

you arguing the homer philosophy is hilarious. There are a high percentage of dumbs***s across hfboards, but there are also a lot of informed hockey fans. And all the dumbs***s from every team tend to cancel each other out, and you can get a sense for a more league wide opinion.

I know, I know. When someone here disagrees with you about a Wings player, it's because they're a homer. When it's you though, it's the fans from around the league who are nitwits.

Blah, blah, blah Harold. Still, bolded for truth.

As for all of your what ifs. WTF am I supposed to do with those? Sure, maybe Vinny would be even greater on a different team. But since I don't live in la la land where I can only imagine what might have been I have to stick with reality. You know, stats and s***.

We have alot of homers here. I've never been accused of being one until now.

Do me a favor and shut me up by showing me who is the most complete player in the league. Show me who does more things and does them better than Datsyuk and maybe your GS&T is homer might hold some water.

As for Z, he doesn't really have any weaknesses either. I just think he is 2nd best to Dats. Probably hurts Z's cause the fact that he gets hurt so much and Dats seems to never miss games.

Anyway, good friendly ribbing. I have my opinion of who I think is the most complete forward in the game. If somebody wants to disagree, then show me something useful.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Seriously, what I think this might show is that as great as it is to bag 65 goals, if you can only play 10 seconds on the P/K you aren't a complete player. I think it shows that you can score over 100 points a year but if you do that and you're still a minus player, then your defense needs alot of work. etc, etc.....Obviously somebody else can use different numbers to come up with different results.

Personally, I like my results b/c they coincide with my opinion. LOL. And to be completely honest, I had no idea how this was going to work out. I just picked offensive and defensive stats and rolled with it and voila! Dats ended up on top. I'm a genius.

that's the heart of it. have you been hanging out with eva?

Because you've made questionable statements based on misuse of statistics. If you can put up 100 points and you're a minus player, that alone says nothing about a player's defensive game. It's reading waaaay to much into what is mostly a team stat. Comparing +/- to players across teams usually is meaningless.

As I mentioned before, Lecavalier is a very good two-way player. But he was -17 last season. So by your reasoning he must have awful defensive abilities compared to Crosby, who was +18, right?

[Opie 308]

oooh, the irony...

Datsyuk doesn't have any glaring weaknesses in his game. If Datsyuk is the best, then what is the weakness in Zetterberg's game exactly?

And you can use the Selke to rule out everyone else's defensive game, but it was Datsyuk's gaudy takeaway stat that put him over the top more than anything. A great defensive player on a great defensive team.

The trouble with saying someone is the most complete player in the league is it has to do with the team as well. You put Vinnie Lecavalier on the Wings, he's going to be as complete as Datsyuk and Z, plus being more physical, having a cannon of a slapshot, dropping the gloves when necessary, and bringing leadership. Lecavalier is already a very good two-way player and thats' on friggin' Tampa Bay. Can you imagine if he had been brought up in the Detroit system like Datsyuk had? If he had the great defensemen and two-way forwards that Detroit has? Right now he's a great player on an awful team.

you arguing the homer philosophy is hilarious. There are a high percentage of dumbs***s across hfboards, but there are also a lot of informed hockey fans. And all the dumbs***s from every team tend to cancel each other out, and you can get a sense for a more league wide opinion.

I know, I know. When someone here disagrees with you about a Wings player, it's because they're a homer. When it's you though, it's the fans from around the league who are nitwits.

If Vinny was a Wing is a hypothetical, what isn't is that Dats won the Selke, and you can claim all you want that it was based on his gaudy take away stat all you want, but unless you interviewed or read the voters opinions some where you have no clue what they used as criteria.

I say D and Z are the two of most complete players in the game included in that list would be Vinny and Iginla. I would take D or Z over both of those players as well, why because they have been around an Org and players that instill the meaning of winning as a team over winning as an individual, the experience they have personally and the experienced players that have shared knowledge with them. They are top performer offensively and defensively.

I root for D and Z just as hard as I root for Hudler and Sammy. I however understand the difference in skill sets and would not say that D and Hudler are comparable.

The homer argument is funny, especially considered this is a legit debate and that Z and D are legit contenders for the title of Most complete/best all around player. It is not like some one is claiming Helm is the most complete.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Opie

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Blah, blah, blah Harold. Still, bolded for truth.

As for all of your what ifs. WTF am I supposed to do with those? Sure, maybe Vinny would be even greater on a different team. But since I don't live in la la land where I can only imagine what might have been I have to stick with reality. You know, stats and s***.

We have alot of homers here. I've never been accused of being one until now.

Do me a favor and shut me up by showing me who is the most complete player in the league. Show me who does more things and does them better than Datsyuk and maybe your GS&T is homer might hold some water.

As for Z, he doesn't really have any weaknesses either. I just think he is 2nd best to Dats. Probably hurts Z's cause the fact that he gets hurt so much and Dats seems to never miss games.

Anyway, good friendly ribbing. I have my opinion of who I think is the most complete forward in the game. If somebody wants to disagree, then show me something useful.

So you can't point out any weaknesses in Z's game, but he is 2nd to dats because you think so.

There you go. You think Dats is best in the league because Dats is best in the league. but I'm supposed to shut you up using empirical evidence?

And stats are hardly reality. You want someone to shut you up by showing you who is the most complete player in the league by using stats, which is bulls***. Because those are all influenced by the players around them. If you're talking about the most complete player it's going to have to be opinion based mostly on watching them because you're talking about trying to isolate their abilities from their teammates.

If the Wings traded away a ton of talent, or had a bunch of injuries, or whatever and sucked for a year, but Datsyuk played as his usual self, would he suddenly not be a great player?

I keep coming back to Lecavalier, because I think he's one to make a strong argument for. 6'4" 220 lbs. 28 years old. He can score he can pass. Cannon for a slapshot. physical hard nose player who will drop the gloves if necessary. Good leadership. They have different styles but taking it all into consideration I think you could call Lecavalier as complete a player as Datsyuk, at least.

[egroen 384]

As I mentioned before, Lecavalier is a very good two-way player.

That is going way too far! There were 9 Wings' forwards who received more Selke votes than Lecavalier last year, and it is not like Lecavalier is an unknown entity here.

Lecavalier is a somewhat better than average two-way player.

Edited October 22, 2008 by egroen

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If Vinny was a Wing is a hypothetical, what isn't is that Dats won the Selke, and you can claim all you want that it was based on his gaudy take away stat all you want, but unless you interviewed or read the voters opinions some where you have no clue what they used as criteria.

I say D and Z are the two of most complete players in the game included in that list would be Vinny and Iginla. I would take D or Z over both of those players as well, why because they have been around an Org and players that instill the meaning of winning as a team over winning as an individual, the experience they have personally and the experienced players that have shared knowledge with them. They are top performer offensively and defensively.

I root for D and Z just as hard as I root for Hudler and Sammy. I however understand the difference in skill sets and would not say that D and Hudler are comparable.

The homer argument is funny, especially considered this is a legit debate and that Z and D are legit contenders for the title of Most complete/best all around player. It is not like some one is claiming Helm is the most complete.

Well said. honestly I don't know I really could trade Dats or Z for Vinny or Iginla, but it'd be hard not to.

As for the homer argument, I think what did it for me was the hyperbole. Stating absolutely that Dats is the most complete player in the game, and the smartest. Plus coming off the walls with the puck more than anyone ever on any team. It's obviously not a ridiculous argument to say Dats is one of the best in the league, I just think it's funny that in the last year Gordie has turned into a Datsyuk slappy.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

that's the heart of it. have you been hanging out with eva?

Because you've made questionable statements based on misuse of statistics. If you can put up 100 points and you're a minus player, that alone says nothing about a player's defensive game. It's reading waaaay to much into what is mostly a team stat. Comparing +/- to players across teams usually is meaningless.

As I mentioned before, Lecavalier is a very good two-way player. But he was -17 last season. So by your reasoning he must have awful defensive abilities compared to Crosby, who was +18, right?

Questionable statements. Could be. Misuse of statistics? Last time I checked there was no protocol/right or wrong way to use statistics. Interpretation is one thing. Misuse? You're reaching.

Actually, if you put up 100 points and you are a minus player, it does say something about your defensive game.

Obviously +/- is a team stat. And if you know how to interpret data you wouldn't ask silly questions like "Crosby's +/- is better so he must be better defensively, right?" Is that a serious question?

It's a weighted system I used. And frankly, your assertion is redundant. Would you say that because Vinny scores more goals he's a better goal scorer? Is the ability to score goals not related to one's team? Why is it okay to say AO is the best goal scorer, and use a stat such as goals scored to confirm it. Yet not use +/- as an indicator of anything? The way you look at it what the f*** is the point of +/- at all? Apparently it doesn't mean anything from player to player or team to team. So why bother tracking it?

I don't make the rules or the stats. You don't like it, that's a you problem.

Still waiting for you to tell me who you think is the most complete player. Maybe you don't think there is one. If so, that's fine. I'd just like to know.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

That is going way too far! All 9 Wings' forwards received more Selke votes than Lecavalier last year, and it is not like Lecavalier is an unknown entity here.

Lecavalier is a somewhat better than average two-way player.

Number of Selke votes do not equal a player's defensive ability. Doesn't anyone watch games anymore instead of using votes and stats?

Lecavalier is a very good two way player. Tampa bay was awful last year, remember? Last place in the league. And overall they were one of the worst defensively.

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that no one has even gotten a sniff of the Selke when they were on the worst team in the league with a terrible plus minus.

None of that means that Lecavalier is not a good defensive forward.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So you can't point out any weaknesses in Z's game, but he is 2nd to dats because you think so.

There you go. You think Dats is best in the league because Dats is best in the league. but I'm supposed to shut you up using empirical evidence?

And stats are hardly reality. You want someone to shut you up by showing you who is the most complete player in the league by using stats, which is bulls***. Because those are all influenced by the players around them. If you're talking about the most complete player it's going to have to be opinion based mostly on watching them because you're talking about trying to isolate their abilities from their teammates.

If the Wings traded away a ton of talent, or had a bunch of injuries, or whatever and sucked for a year, but Datsyuk played as his usual self, would he suddenly not be a great player?

I keep coming back to Lecavalier, because I think he's one to make a strong argument for. 6'4" 220 lbs. 28 years old. He can score he can pass. Cannon for a slapshot. physical hard nose player who will drop the gloves if necessary. Good leadership. They have different styles but taking it all into consideration I think you could call Lecavalier as complete a player as Datsyuk, at least.

Okay Harold, didn't realize I have to spell things out for you. If D and Z are close to identical, yet I state clearly that one gets hurt and the other doesn't...........you're telling me you still can't connect the dots as to why I would place Datsyuk above Zetterberg?

I'll type slowly for you Z g e t s h u r t m o r e, s o I M O, h e a l t h p l a y s a f a c t o r i n my d e c i s i o n m a k i n g.

Jesus, I all but said that in the original post on this that health should be a factor.

Okay, as for Lecavalier, I really don't know why but for some reason you're giving me the impression that I'm bagging on the guy. I'm not. He plays on s***ty teams. He's pretty much everything you stated. Statistically, he also kills penalties more than the other guys on the list other than D and Z. So for sure, he is a great player. Especially when you add in the intangibles such as his size and toughness.

I have no problem with somebody saying Lecavalier is the most complete player in hockey. I don't agree with it but I think it's one of the best, rational choices one could make.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Number of Selke votes do not equal a player's defensive ability. Doesn't anyone watch games anymore instead of using votes and stats?

Lecavalier is a very good two way player. Tampa bay was awful last year, remember? Last place in the league. And overall they were one of the worst defensively.

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that no one has even gotten a sniff of the Selke when they were on the worst team in the league with a terrible plus minus.

None of that means that Lecavalier is not a good defensive forward.

QFT.

And I for one am not saying nor have I said in any post that Lecavalier isn't a good two-way player. Frankly, I never said anything negative about Lecavalier at all. All i've said is in so many words is that I think Datsyuk has the ability to to more things better than most players.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Questionable statements. Could be. Misuse of statistics? Last time I checked there was no protocol/right or wrong way to use statistics. Interpretation is one thing. Misuse? You're reaching.

Actually, if you put up 100 points and you are a minus player, it does say something about your defensive game.

Obviously +/- is a team stat. And if you know how to interpret data you wouldn't ask silly questions like "Crosby's +/- is better so he must be better defensively, right?" Is that a serious question?

It's a weighted system I used. And frankly, your assertion is redundant. Would you say that because Vinny scores more goals he's a better goal scorer? Is the ability to score goals not related to one's team? Why is it okay to say AO is the best goal scorer, and use a stat such as goals scored to confirm it. Yet not use +/- as an indicator of anything? The way you look at it what the f*** is the point of +/- at all? Apparently it doesn't mean anything from player to player or team to team. So why bother tracking it?

I don't make the rules or the stats. You don't like it, that's a you problem.

Still waiting for you to tell me who you think is the most complete player. Maybe you don't think there is one. If so, that's fine. I'd just like to know.

If you really believe that, there's no point in arguing with you. Because that's a totally illogical conclusion. It's overlooking so many variables, it's ridiculous.

By your reasoning, what exactly happened to Datsyuk in '04 then? Because he was a +20 the previous season. And a +22 the season after it, and has never finished lower than a +20 since then. Did he just forget how to play defensively for that one season?

+/- can be somewhat informative, but honestly can be an extremely misleading or overused stat. If you don't know that, I don't know what to tell you. Player to player on the same team, it can be useful, but still doesn't come close to telling the whole story. Or if a whole team has a great plus minus, it tells you something about that team. But think of how it's figured. If you're on the ice, even if you just hopped over the boards in a shift change when a goal was scored, minus 1. Or the other way. you tripped over the blueline and sprawled out on your stomach for half the shift, but someone on your team scores. +1. so your defensive game just got better, by your reasoning I guess.

You may have noticed that I never said AO is the best goal scorer. He's a great one for sure. or that Vinny is a better goal scorer (I'm assuming you mean better than Dats), because it is dependent on the team.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

QFT.

And I for one am not saying nor have I said in any post that Lecavalier isn't a good two-way player. Frankly, I never said anything negative about Lecavalier at all. All i've said is in so many words is that I think Datsyuk has the ability to to more things better than most players.

I never thought you were bagging on Lecavalier, for the record. I was just stating my case.

And honestly you started by saying Dats was most complete in the league and smartest, and a few other absolutes.

I agree that Dats absolutely has the ability to do more things better than most players, perhaps the only exception being speaking English.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

It's interesting that nobody has chimed in thus far with another candidate for who is the best.

We've had plenty of threads over who is better, Sid or AO, yet not a single vote for either of them.

As Opie pointed out, I don't think i'm being a homer because no, we're not talking about Darren Helm. Datsyuk and Zetterberg do belong in the conversation of who is the most complete forward in the game.

After looking at the data I chose and after many years of watching these guys play.

Pesonally, my ranking as of today for most complete forward is:

1. Datsyuk

2. Zetterberg

3. Lecavalier

4. Iginla

5. Thornton

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It's interesting that nobody has chimed in thus far with another candidate for who is the best.

We've had plenty of threads over who is better, Sid or AO, yet not a single vote for either of them.

As Opie pointed out, I don't think i'm being a homer because no, we're not talking about Darren Helm. Datsyuk and Zetterberg do belong in the conversation of who is the most complete forward in the game.

After looking at the data I chose and after many years of watching these guys play.

Pesonally, my ranking as of today for most complete forward is:

1. Datsyuk

2. Zetterberg

3. Lecavalier

4. Iginla

5. Thornton

Suddenly we're agreeing. What the hell happened?!

I don't know that I could sort out the top three among those guys. But I agree with the list, especially Thornton and Iginla being down a notch or two.

[Heaton 1]

I'll ignore the majority of the thread and give my opinion based on their play the past few seasons:

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Hossa

Franzen

Filppula

Cleary

Draper

Samuelsson

Maltby

Hudler

Kopecky

Holmstrom

And for the record by no means are the bottom 3 bad defensively. They all make the necessary safe plays.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I never thought you were bagging on Lecavalier, for the record. I was just stating my case.

And honestly you started by saying Dats was most complete in the league and smartest, and a few other absolutes.

I agree that Dats absolutely has the ability to do more things better than most players, perhaps the only exception being speaking English.

It is important to note though that in my rankings, +/- didn't mean any more than goals or points did.

Obviously we all know that if you play on a s***ty team and give up more goals than you score your +/- will likely suffer.

As for saying Dats is the smartest. I'm referring to hockey sense and I apply that opinion the same way I do to Lidstrom when I say he's the smartest defensman in the league. Is that an absolute? Who can say? You watch the games and personally, the way Dats sees the ice and goes about his decision making most closely resembles Lids IMO. Hence why I made that comment.

Can Dats fight like Iggy or Lecav? Nope.

Can he bag 60 goals? doubtful

Conversely,

Dats is a better shot blocker and faceoff man than Lecavalier.

Dats is a better defender than AO

In the end you look at the ability to score a goal, assist on a goal, kill a penalty, throw a hit, block a shot, fight somebody, strip a puck, lead your team, make smart decisions, etc, etc...

each player will do some things better than the others. But perhaps one player does more of those things at a higher level than the others. And that's all I was getting it. I just happen to think its Dats. My opinion though has never been very humble as you know.