egroen 384 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) It will also depend if Zetterberg would consider a front-loaded contract. For instance: 10 10 8 6 5 4 4 3 = $6.25 million cap hit This has him under contract until he is 36. Would Franzen? 6 5 4 3 2 2 1 = $3 million cap hit Under contract until he is 37. This is the direction I think Holland is going to have to go in order to get creative. Edited December 2, 2008 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anomalously 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 Because that is a good price for him... he could get more. He plays on the PP and PK, is "gritty" and in addition to a very successful playoff run last year he is on pace for 70+ points this year. Cleary has shown a lot less and got $2.8 million - and the only way he accepted such a low salary was if it included a no-trade clause. You keep saying that Samuelsson plays the penalty kill -- what are you basing this on? He's played exactly one 44-second shift of PK time this year. (Cleary and Filppula play ~3 times as much per game as Samuelsson has all year). All of last year, Samuelsson played 5 minutes TOTAL on the PK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 It will also depend if Zetterberg would consider a front-loaded contract. For instance: 10 10 8 6 5 4 4 3 = $6.25 million cap hit This has him under contract until he is 36. Would Franzen? 6 5 4 4 2 2 1 = $3.4 million cap hit Under contract until he is 37. This is the direction I think Holland is going to have to go in order to get creative. Can players renegotiate their contracts? If not, why is that contract any better for Z (or us) than 8 years at 6.25 per, which I think is quite a bit less than he'll take. It's not like he's in his 40's at the end of it, his production won't tail off that much ... same with Franzen ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 WOW!! A 7 year deal for a guy who's career high is 38 points, which he didn't hit until age 28. WHOA that is long term in my mind way toooo long term. Not saying it couldn't happen but his career (injuries, late bloomer) doesn't scream "HEY OVER HERE SIGN ME LONG TERM" to me at least, but I in no way shape or form can do Hollands job! As far as Z, I would take that deal in a heartbeat, my only precaution would be his health as well, but he is a Conn Smythe the risk reward with him is a lot better looking one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) You keep saying that Samuelsson plays the penalty kill -- what are you basing this on? He's played exactly one 44-second shift of PK time this year. (Cleary and Filppula play ~3 times as much per game as Samuelsson has all year). All of last year, Samuelsson played 5 minutes TOTAL on the PK. Much like other players in the league can and do are two different things, how much time does Hossa play on the PK, can he do it yeah, Dats last year, Rafalski. These guys can all play the PK, but Babs has better options or more preferred options. Much like the PP with Stuart/ Cheli and Sammy. Can Stuart play the point, he sure has in the past, Babs prefers and alternate option. No one said (at least me) he is a top PK player on this team, but he is defensively responsible and can handle the duties. It is not like he is a player who flat out can not play it. He just is the 6th or 7th best option on historically one of the best PK teams. Edited December 2, 2008 by Opie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) Contracts can no longer be renegotiated. The reason a front-loaded contract might apeal to Zetterberg is because he can take the extra money up front and invest it over the life of the contract and earn more than the real contract value. Or he could follow McCarty's advice and double it at the casinos overnight WOW!! A 7 year deal for a guy who's career high is 38 points, which he didn't hit until age 28. WHOA that is long term in my mind way toooo long term. Not saying it couldn't happen but his career (injuries, late bloomer) doesn't scream "HEY OVER HERE SIGN ME LONG TERM" to me at least, but I in no way shape or form can do Hollands job! As far as Z, I would take that deal in a heartbeat, my only precaution would be his health as well, but he is a Conn Smythe the risk reward with him is a lot better looking one. I just think if Franzen hits free agency it will be a frenzy. Could you imagine him on Crosby's or Malkin's wing? Franzen will need at least $4 million a year to stay with the Wings and will command upwards of $5 million or more in free agency. Ryan Malone received $4.5 million and I think most can recognize Franzen is a much better all-around player. If Holland wants to keep him at a discount I just think he needs to get creative, as well as take a risk. But Holland has not been much of a risk taker so far, so he might not even consider such an option. Edited December 2, 2008 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruarc' 2 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 Or he could follow McCarty's advice and double it at the casinos overnight. Interesting. Mrs. Ilitch, are you listening? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 I don't see our roster looking like that at all - for starters, if Sammy wants ANYTHING over 1.75, he's gone... I also think we're gonna see Hudler and/or Kopecky and Lebda/Meech shipped by the deadline (Hudler/Koppa due to free agency status and high trade value and Lebda/Meech due to logjam at D) I also think Maltby will hang them up at the end of the year, as will Cheli after we do not tender an offer and he doesn't want to retest the waters.... there WILL be casualties and Hossa is here on a short term stay... Franzen around 4 a year, Hank at team max of around 7-7.5 and then bring up Abs and Helm... If Sammy walks, Leino back Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Cleary Franzen-Zetterberg-Samuelsson or Hudler/Kopecky if Sammy is gone Hudler/Kopecky-Filpulla-Helm Abdelkader-Draper-Downey Lidstrom-Rafalski Stuart-Kronwall Lilja-Lebda/Meech Osgood Howard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 stevkrause: You are already at $55 million with only 20 players (assuming Samuelsson, Maltby, Hudler and Chelios are all gone). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ashenhigh 9 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 these threads are really annoying...... in holland we trust. nuff said Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 these threads are really annoying...... You're really annoying! I am interested in the future of the team, and do not want to be disappointed and in shock when all the players are not back next year. If some of them can be brought back, it is interesting to me to consider how it might be done. So of course: stay out of these threads in the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 Can players renegotiate their contracts? If not, why is that contract any better for Z (or us) than 8 years at 6.25 per, which I think is quite a bit less than he'll take. It's not like he's in his 40's at the end of it, his production won't tail off that much ... same with Franzen ... The important thing in such a contract is the Time Value of Money. It is much better to have more money now and less later than the converse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 The important thing in such a contract is the Time Value of Money. It is much better to have more money now and less later than the converse. And Holland could argue it's best to take that money now, before Obama's tax increases go into effect! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 The important thing in such a contract is the Time Value of Money. It is much better to have more money now and less later than the converse. Okay, but how is it better for us? And unless Z is a whiz at the stockmarket I don't think a front-loaded 6.25 per is better than a flat 7.5 or 8 or 9 that he might command elsewhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted December 2, 2008 Dude, you and I have gone back and forth about Sammy but in this rendition I bring up a different point, completely unrelated to Sammy's play. Jeff Finger I know the salary cap last year went up and we will probably see a slight reduction in $ amounts due to the expected down turn it will take, but, Dude, some one gave Jeff Finger 3.5 mil. I'm just saying! And it has proven to be a terrible move by Fletcher. Finger has been a plug for Toronto all year, dont give me stats, I've watched the games, all the jokes made about him were so true. Not directed at you Opie, just anyone that would defend the contract. As far as Sammy for 3 million Just because Babcock plays him alot, doesnt mean he's warranted his ice time. Holland isnt foolish enough to do that anyways, at least his mistake with Filppula is understandable because he's young and could still get better. I'm not gonna worry about next year until it comes, I just hope we're back to back Cup Champs when it's July 1 2009. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anomalously 0 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 Much like other players in the league can and do are two different things, how much time does Hossa play on the PK, can he do it yeah, Dats last year, Rafalski. These guys can all play the PK, but Babs has better options or more preferred options. Much like the PP with Stuart/ Cheli and Sammy. Can Stuart play the point, he sure has in the past, Babs prefers and alternate option. No one said (at least me) he is a top PK player on this team, but he is defensively responsible and can handle the duties. It is not like he is a player who flat out can not play it. He just is the 6th or 7th best option on historically one of the best PK teams. I quoted egroen, who said he "plays" -- not that he could play, can play, would play, might play -- on the PK. What are you talking about? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Impossible to even predict at this point. Edited December 3, 2008 by Crymson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 I quoted egroen, who said he "plays" -- not that he could play, can play, would play, might play -- on the PK. What are you talking about? I'll say "can play" if it makes you feel better. Samuelsson is good defensively. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redwings8831 40 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 Get rid of the salary cap. or Sign Hossa and Franzen for 2 million a piece each.(needless to say sign Hank) Give them each 2-3 Little Ceasers Restaurants (throughout North America)and some how they sell Phantom pizzas totally 6 million more than they actually sell a year. Hoss and franz Get their 8 mil each and "play for less". Is that illegal?? Make it happen Kenny. I'm pretty sure that is not legal but it would sweet if it was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FunkedUp 29 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 None of these questions can begin to be answered until we have a 2009-2010 cap set in stone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLWINGSFAN4013 5 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 how about long contracts for z, hossa, mule..... i.e. 10yrs x million like a dipietro type of deal......i dont really want to see hudler go.....chelios goes back to chi to retire....sammy take a deal at .2 less or gone....sorry but mccarty/downey gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted December 3, 2008 Samuelsson plays on the penalty kill just as Cleary and Fillpula do and is more of a regular on the power play than they are. He has also been producing a lot more points than either of them. The fact Holland, with all his "magic", signed Cleary and Filppula for around $3 million tells me we will most likely see the better player, Samuelsson, give a home-town discount for close to the same. Even if Holland printed up a transcript of LGW.com and used it to bring Sammy's value down to $2 milion, that is only $1 million you have freed up. What does that do for you? You could let Kopecky go and afford Leino, which would not be bad at all. When does Samuelsson ever kill penalties? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MrSandMan Report post Posted December 17, 2008 7.00 6.70 Zetterberg (same as Dats) 6.70 Datsyuk 3.9 3.75 Franzen[/i] 3.00 Filppula 3.001.75 Samuelsson Gone Stays (not for 3 mil) 2.80 Cleary 2.25 Holmstrom 1.60 Draper 0.90 Maltby 0.90 0.75 Abdelkader 0.80 Kopecky Gone 0.60 Helm 1.25 Hudler 0.50 McCarty Gone 0.50 Downey GR Bound 32.05 7.45 Lidstrom 6.00 Rafalski 3.75 Stuart 3.00 Kronwall 1.25 Lilja 0.90 0.75 Eriksson 0.75 Chelios Gone 0.65 Lebda Traded/Waived 0.5 Meech Traded/Waived Stays or traded 22.7 1.40 Osgood 0.70 Howard/Conklin $56.85 mill 09-10 ^^Revised 1. Zetter isn't getting more than Dats. 2. Franzen is going to get 3.5 - 3.75 3. Sammy is NOT getting 3 million. 4. Chelios is gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 17, 2008 ^^Revised 1. Zetter isn't getting more than Dats. 2. Franzen is going to get 3.5 - 3.75 3. Sammy is NOT getting 3 million. 4. Chelios is gone Without even attempting to poke holes in your serious under evaluation of players' worths (Hudler at $1.25????) I'll just point out that you have at most 20 players there and need at least two more. I posted Abdelkader's and Eriksson's actual salaries - you can not just wave a wand and reduce them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) I see you chose to insult me instead of actually trying to make a viable 22-23 man roster for under the existing salary cap. Samuelsson can play on all lines, plays on the power play, is defensively responsible and is a big body. He is currently 6th on the team in scoring, had 40 pts in 73 games last year and 13 pts in the playoffs. He has outproduced Filppula and Cleary, who are both making around $3 million dollars. Now what is more realistic, Sammy getting $1.75 million or $3 million? All his agent has to do is play a few soundbites of Babcock gushing over everything Samuelsson does... I guess I fail to see the humor in my OP, or how it only exists in fantasy land. I tried to take a very objective look at the Red Wings situation next year, similar players salaries across the league and even included some nice hometown discounts for Holland. As I stated, that would be how I could see the roster looking next year, but Holland has been known to work some magic and anything better than that i will be thrilled. But keeping all of Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, Filppula and Samuelsson is utterly impossible. Edited December 17, 2008 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
