Team toughness

[diehardredwing19 11]

it also pissed me the hell off to see zetta get punched in the head, but lets not forget that these boys can step up and throw punch for punch example vs the pens in the finals game 2 near the end... datsyuk vs roberts...zetterberg vs orpik....franzen on top of malkin, could of should of pounded malkins face into the ice but didnt but thats fine, this team is built to draw penalties....so be it get shoved around were not the ducks or flames, the wings play a total different game were suppose to own teams on the PP.... but that being said i understand what u downey fans mean to...it would be nice to have him in the lineup here and there just to put fear into the opponents head that mess with zetta, pavs, hoss... and you'll have downey right after your ass!

[jvxp 0]

Exactly. Given the difficulty of repeating, the very short summer the Wings had after a grueling postseason, it's dumb to let teams beat you up and tire yourself out for the playoffs. The Wings we would end up seeing are the ones during that tenuous road trip, and the same Wings that choked in the playoffs several times to teams more physical than they. The skill thing can pass against bonehead teams like Nashville, but when an extremely physical team also is good at putting the puck in the net, you talk about teams that have eliminated the Wings in recent years.

We're on the same wavelength! I agree.

[thedisappearer 291]

I think the Wings need some more forwards who contribute secondary scoring, back checking, and the ability to skate and pass. Those guys tend to lead to more victories. Screw your hard-on for watching men fight.

[jvxp 0]

I think the Wings need some more forwards who contribute secondary scoring, back checking, and the ability to skate and pass. Those guys tend to lead to more victories. Screw your hard-on for watching men fight.

What are you smoking? Did you just start watching the Wings? They have all the scoring they need.

[Guest Shoreline]

I dunno who suggests the Wings should fight more. However, the Wings do need a person who can throw his weight around, defend his teammates, and step in for the skill guys who need not be getting punched and pushed around like this team's guys are. Sucks to me that two of our team's top paid players were essentially left alone to defend themselves against jabs to the face and repeated shoves aimed at intimidating or instigating a fight -- one neither of those two would win.

[jvxp 0]

I dunno who suggests the Wings should fight more. However, the Wings do need a person who can throw his weight around, defend his teammates, and step in for the skill guys who need not be getting punched and pushed around like this team's guys are. Sucks to me that two of our team's top paid players were essentially left alone to defend themselves against jabs to the face and repeated shoves aimed at intimidating or instigating a fight -- one neither of those two would win.

Once again I agree.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Well, considering Zetterberg scored a huge goal, by going hard to the net no less, after he got swatted at by big bad Roy proves the point that this kind of "big stupid lug" intimidation doesn't work. At least not against Detroit.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Lik ei said in another thread, Pavel had the hardest hit along with Homer and Kopecky with 2nd.

[lets go pavel 2]

I dunno who suggests the Wings should fight more. However, the Wings do need a person who can throw his weight around, defend his teammates, and step in for the skill guys who need not be getting punched and pushed around like this team's guys are. Sucks to me that two of our team's top paid players were essentially left alone to defend themselves against jabs to the face and repeated shoves aimed at intimidating or instigating a fight -- one neither of those two would win.

These things - pushing, shoving, facewashes - happen all the time because they are part of the game. This is hockey, not bowling. None of those things are going to wear our players down, they aren't a bunch of pansies who cry when someone is rough with them. Moreover, having a tough guy to come off the bench isn't going to stop any of that, again it's part of the game. I have no problem with having a tough guy around to stick up for people, but let's not act like our players are helpless without one ...

[Guest Shoreline]

These things - pushing, shoving, facewashes - happen all the time because they are part of the game. This is hockey, not bowling. None of those things are going to wear our players down, they aren't a bunch of pansies who cry when someone is rough with them. Moreover, having a tough guy to come off the bench isn't going to stop any of that, again it's part of the game. I have no problem with having a tough guy around to stick up for people, but let's not act like our players are helpless without one ...

How about this -- the lack of physical play on the Wings part, due in part to them taking most of the physical shots, have also contributed to goals against. I distinctly remember a few games ago the game winning goal given up because an opposing team's player got the puck, skated toward the boards, passed it, a Wing decided to turn away rather than finish his check (a common theme here), that same player came flying up the ice and scored the winning goal. There are obviously several other reasons the Wings defense has sucked, but this is one of the key issues. And the physical nature of the game doesn't end there, and it does impact how tired and banged up players become, otherwise it would not have worked against the Wings 4 times this decade.

[lets go pavel 2]

How about this -- the lack of physical play on the Wings part, due in part to them taking most of the physical shots, have also contributed to goals against. I distinctly remember a few games ago the game winning goal given up because an opposing team's player got the puck, skated toward the boards, passed it, a Wing decided to turn away rather than finish his check (a common theme here), that same player came flying up the ice and scored the winning goal. There are obviously several other reasons the Wings defense has sucked, but this is one of the key issues. And the physical nature of the game doesn't end there, and it does impact how tired and banged up players become, otherwise it would not have worked against the Wings 4 times this decade.

Having a tough guy on our team isn't going to stop teams like Calgary, Anaheim, SJ from playing physical, it's how they play. Our team isn't tired, we're not even half way through the season yet. And just for the record, we outhit the Flames 23-21 last night.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

You know what a lot of people overlooked? Every single time Conklin got showered from a Calgary player coming in and leaning into the ice, what happened? Just put their arm between the Flame player and Conk. This happened at least half a dozen times, that being a very conservative estimation. What happens if the Wings did the same to Calgary? Hell, they didn't even need to and Flame players were pushing and shoving their guys around. These are messages that need to be sent, and the attitude that needs to fuel guys from falling asleep from a pure skill game. People evidently forget what happens to a battered, entirely-skill Wings team in the playoffs that can't answer for a team that plays very highly on the physical side. As mentioned in the GDT thread, hopefully Anaheim, Calgary, and Edmonton ring a bell.

That's my boy Shoreline, I knew you had it in you... Can't argree with this post more.... The team has plenty of skill and it wouldn't hurt to have a little balance in the terms of a bad ass.... Marty Lapointe of the 90's if you will. This "our enforcer is our power play" bs has to stop, it's embarrasing that a once hard-core, tough guy, man's game has come to this. We were balanced last year with Drake and Downey playing a majority of the regular season games, why can't that happen again?

[CrossoverThrash 0]

How about this -- the lack of physical play on the Wings part, due in part to them taking most of the physical shots, have also contributed to goals against. I distinctly remember a few games ago the game winning goal given up because an opposing team's player got the puck, skated toward the boards, passed it, a Wing decided to turn away rather than finish his check (a common theme here), that same player came flying up the ice and scored the winning goal. There are obviously several other reasons the Wings defense has sucked, but this is one of the key issues. And the physical nature of the game doesn't end there, and it does impact how tired and banged up players become, otherwise it would not have worked against the Wings 4 times this decade.

The Wings also have osme of the most conditioned players in the league. Stuart has had the most big hits this year OUT OF ANYONE, the most! the BIGGEST! Datsyuk has alot of his own, hossa has some, along with Homer, franzen, zetterberg, Kopecky. Face washing/slashing has nothing to do with physical play. Maybe lebda and hudler arent finishing their checks but cmon.

[Guest Crymson]

BTW, anyone who makes that "PP is an enforcer" argument should be disqualified from participating in this thread. It's a pathetic thing to say and I don't know how anyone can bring themselves to post it.

Brilliant stimulation of discussion there, GMR.

[BlueMonk 102]

I've learned to live with the, "we don't need an enforcer," attitude. I can deal with that. But when people start using the, "Our PP is our enforcer," line, I want to throw up. Show some self-respect, people. You're embarrassing yourself and this board when you post garbage like this. There are other sports besides hockey for you.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Do the Red Wings NEED an enforcer? I would say probably not.

Would it be nice to dress Mac or Downey over Kopecky? I would say absolutely.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Brilliant stimulation of discussion there, GMR.

Maybe you should start a thread talking about how we explicitly don't need enforcers, and how you're tired of all the "we need an enforcer talk". You're the expert in starting those type of threads, King Crymson.

As far as I go, you know where I stand on this, and I'm not going to change my mind, nor should I.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

No.

And before I get grief from the ultra fight/enforcer slappies that might exaggerate that I want to see a bunch of figure skating out there, I understand the role of an enforcer. I get it. I think they serve a purpose and are still useful in the game today, to a certain degree/percentage.

Are they helpful? Without question. Could we use one in the lineup? Sure. Is it of the utmost importance to have one in the lineup on a daily basis given the current roster and makeup and mentality of the team? Probably not.

This team is not the soft team that was known from after the 2002 Cup win to the season to where they got eliminated in the playoffs early by Edmonton. Sure, a way to beat Detroit is to play more physical, but I don't understand what else has to be proven by them that shows they don't back down from anybody and rarely get intimidated. It all started in the 2006-07 playoffs and still holds true today.

This team is not soft, they have a coach that will not let them go soft in Mike Babcock regardless of if they do or do not have extra knuckles in the lineup. They serve their purpose yes, but the value of them in here has been overblown a million times in here it seems. I certainly wouldn't mind one but I'm not going to lose sleep if no enforcer is in the lineup on a regular basis.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

We dont even have team toughness to talk about. Could an enforcer help it out? Yes it could, but it's a mind set, and we dont have it yet. I think McCarty/Downey could make a big difference honestly, all the big hits we've been throwing, someone is going to come after us. It's all over sportscenter how a run at a star = a fight now. Having the enforcer to back you up is big, look at the teams that fight alot, or hit alot, they have team toughness. We dont, we have a ridiculous amount of skill, if we balance it out, we'll be unbeatable in the playoffs.

[scotzman 29]

The people who keep saying we didn't have any enforcers last year and we won the Cup need to be reminded that all throughout the year and in the early rounds of the playoffs we had at least one, if not two people on the team willing to drop the gloves.

Drake was fighting people like crazy early on in the year. Then Downey came along. Mac was there toward the end of the season and was on the ice through the early rounds.

In 97, 98 we had Shanny, Lapointe & Mac. In 2002 we had Shanny, Mac and to a lesser extent Cheli.

The truth is, you need a little grit for occasions like playing the Flames, Ducks and Preds. These teams are dead set on playing chippy and getting in some cheap shots because they know there is no one out there to answer to.

We are talking about one guy... Kopecky can sit. One guy my friends... one man who occupies a place on the bench with basic skills willing to work and take care of the skill guys.

We're not talking the Hansen Brothers here!!

[The Mule 0]

I would love to see a legitimate enforcer wearing red and white, but only if said player isn't a liability on the ice. With that said, D-Mac has shown us this year he can still throw them when he has to, so I'm comfortable with him on our team.

[Guest Shoreline]

Having a tough guy on our team isn't going to stop teams like Calgary, Anaheim, SJ from playing physical, it's how they play. Our team isn't tired, we're not even half way through the season yet. And just for the record, we outhit the Flames 23-21 last night.

If it doesn't stop them though, it at very least means the team has an answer to them. There's lots that can happen when extra physical guys like that start battering around your skill players. And no, not what Stevie Y did to Prong-her.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Shoreline

[hokike 1]

IMO all those "enforser fans" are naive. Why?

1. Hockey is extremely physical game injures happen daily.

2. Do you really think the hockey player is afraid of so called fight especially when most of fights are "bear dances"?Every player would take "fight" over groin or knee injury( see above).

3. Players have said that they do not need fights , it is for fans.

4. Do you think that fights or results of those shake players self esteem? C'mon "fights" may affect teenagers self esteem, but do you really imagine adult hockey players react as teenagers? Same thing with that "statement" issue: it may impress teens but certainly not hockey players in NHL.

4. My point is clear: contrary to popular myth players are not afraid of fights or goons. Opponents absolutely does not care of "Downeys or Macs" or other goons. Mac's or Downey's punches are joke comparably attempts to stop 100mph puck by defenders/goalie.

P.S. It is humiliating to handle members of Red Wing as shaky teens who need fights to "prove something". They are adults and I'm 100% sure they absolutely do not care if somebody says something like that: "No goons there what a ***** team."

Edited December 12, 2008 by hokike

[skacore 2]

Having at least 1 tough guy in the line up goes beyond whether it helps win games in the regular season or not, it's just a part of the game. Hockey is about standing up for each other and team bonding. Anyone watch HNIC on Saturday nights? Late game especially? How can you compare that to the style of hockey that the Wings' play? If you are satisfied with the product that the Wings put on the ice then my hats off to you, but I'd had enough and I think a lot of fans are the same way. Many fans fell in love with a team that iced Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Shanahan, Lapointe, etc. Yzerman was the leader, not an overly physical player but a hard working North American (uh oh I went there) who wore his heart on his sleeve, our team is now full of EXTREMELY SKILLED European robots. They go through the motions almost every night. They are a very skilled team and one of the best in the league, but attendance sucks, fans suck, the atmosphere at the Joe sucks, it sucks watching Wings' games at a bar or with friends, and most of their games are just downright boring (again, if you disagree, I tip my hat to you, don't know how you do it).

It may not the 1980's but fighting is up, hitting is up. Guys are getting bigger and stronger and there are some real bruisers out there, it's not like they aren't available. Ken Holland has stated year after year he'd "love to have" a guy who can play and hit, or play and fight, but they aren't hard to come by. It's like he constantly addresses this need but doesn't act on it. It's not impossible to get a player like that. The example I'll use over and over again is Chris Neil, what will it take to get him in a trade? A 3rd rounder? You're set for a tough guy for the next 5-6 years with Neil and he brings excitement to any game, any time, any score, etc. He's something the fans who appreciate physical play can rally behind. At the bar with some buddies, Raffi Torres pulls a Williams hit, you tell your Oilers' friend beside you "Neil is gonna f*** him up, you just watch!". The loyal fans deserve to be able to do that, that's how hockey has always been. I appreciate what Filppula can bring to the 3rd line, he's a good all around player, but I don't think I'll be rocking a Valtteri Filppula jersey anytime soon...

You can say, "then go become a Ducks fan!", but anyone who hasn't already done that clearly isn't a bandwagon fan. We grew up and fell in love with hard nosed, rugged hockey and it's been taken away from us and replaced with a European style. The atmosphere at the Joe is embarrassing, watching our players turn their back when push comes to shove is embarrassing, having like 6-7 North American players on the roster is embarrassing. I'm not asking for Derek Boogaard but have some balance, give the fans some real hockey.

[skacore 2]

IMO all those "enforser fans" are naive. Why?

1. Hockey is extremely physical game injures happen daily.

2. Do you really think the hockey player is afraid of so called fight especially when most of fights are "bear dances"?Every player would take "fight" over groin or knee injury( see above).

3. Players have said that they do not need fights , it is for fans.

4. Do you think that fights or results of those shake players self esteem? C'mon "fights" may affect teenagers self esteem, but do you really imagine adult hockey players react as teenagers? Same thing with that "statement" issue: it may impress teens but certainly not hockey players in NHL.

4. My point is clear: contrary to popular myth players are not afraid of fights or goons. Opponents absolutely does not care of "Downeys or Macs" or other goons. Mac's or Downey's punches are joke comparably attempts to stop 100mph puck by defenders/goalie.

P.S. It is humiliating to handle members of Red Wing as shaky teens who need fights to "prove something". They are adults and I'm 100% sure they absolutely do not care if somebody says something like that: "No goons there what a ***** team."

Ok, 1 sec... I think I have an idea of the type of hockey fan you are...

...did you just throw up?