Team toughness

[skacore 2]

I don't think I have wandered off at all. I agree with you that you brought up the stats trying to prove me wrong, but you are trying to prove to me that Parros is a good hockey player, which is rediculous. If Parros wasn't huge and couldn't fight, do you think for a moment he would be on that team? They didn't sign him because he can skate and is good on the forecheck.

Maybe you are right about one thing, Parros isn't a pylon, he is a crutch, proping up a geriatric group of cranky hockey players who aren't very good anymore.

Either way you are missing my point, instead choosing to insult me rather then consider what I am suggesting to you.

I am not saying the Wings need an enforcer, I am suggesting quite the opposite. I don't like the enforcer role. I think it is a waste of resource. I think that in todays league a team of tough skilled players willing to stick up for themselves will play better without an enforcer. The Sharks are ironically a good example of this.

Last year the Sharks brought Shelley in because the team wasn't considered gritty enough to win it all. The team didn't stick up for themselves, predominately against teams like the Ducks and Flames. Shelley was supposed to instill a killer instinct and or defend those who wouldn't defend themselves. All he did last year was run around getting his ass kicked by Parros, Laraque, Boogard etc. It was embarasing and did little to help the team, that still lost in the second round. Shelley was completely irrelevant in the playoffs, he was such a liability, RW rarely played him.

This year, Shelley's role as an enforcer has diminished significantly, fortunately he is playing better on the 4th line, which is great, but I would hardly consider him the best player for that position. The team is doing a much better job of sticking up for themselves individually. There are far fewer fights, which means less distractions, and amazingly enough the team is playing much better, which the stats seem to support. Shelley clearly wasn't the answer to the problem!

Do you understand me now?

I'm not saying Parros is a good hockey player compared to others in the NHL, I'm saying he's not a pylon and that he is a very suitable 4th line winger. Maybe he could survive in the NHL if he didn't fight, maybe not, he probably wouldn't have been given a chance if he didn't though.

I'd rather a team full of tough players than 1 guy as well but with Detroit, clearly they aren't headed in that direction.

When Shelley came to the Sharks last year he was contributing more than just fighting. He'd fight when called upon and was, in my opinion, a good acquisition to polish off a very tough team, all they lacked was a heavyweight fighter. I don't even need to check NHL.com to know that Shelley racked up at least half a dozen points in about 30 games in the reg. season. He may not have played all the playoffs but I know he played a bit anyways, and was a viable option if the coaching staff felt necessary.

I'm not sure what you mean Shelley's role has diminished? Yes the team has come together as a whole and are playing tougher as a unit, but it wouldn't be crazy to suggest that a veteran enforcer like Jody Shelley had contributed to that mind set. The guy is playing every game and getting 4th line ice time on the best team in the league right now, so they obviously see something in his game.

Fewer fights? Less distractions? Of course they have had fewer fights compared to last year's total, the season has just started. They are on a high pace again and are going to be up around the top of the league in fighting majors when the playoffs come.

"Shelley clearly wasn't the answer to the problem!"

So the Sharks acquired a veteran enforcer, they play him every game, the team is playing much tougher and much better, but for some reason you don't seem to want to admit it? I don't get that part. If I cared enough I could probably dig up some video clips from "Sharks Bite" or whatever it's called and get the player's opinion of Jody Shelley, but I'm pretty confident I'd know their responses and I don't really care enough to do so.

[Ratbastrd 90]

Sorry to drivel on, but the more I think about this, the stronger I feel about it.

Did you see last nights game between the Sharks/Ducks? I admit I was really pumped to see Shelley/Parros go at it. First period, just like a bad "B" movie, out skate the two warriors, no plot just gratuitous violence "Hey" "you talking to me" "yea" "your a *****" "oh yea" "yea"...

So they beat the s*** out of each other for a minute, essentially a draw. Then they skate off, and I am sitting there thinking what the hell was that all about? In the end it had absolutely no bearing on the game. The two teams still ran at each other all night long.

The rest of the game was a f'ing snooze fest, completely worthless. One of the most boring games I have ever watched. No flow, chippy, lots of bodies flying and yet utterly useless from a hockey entertainment perspective.

The Sharks won 2-0 but could have easily won 6-0. They were far too interested in trying to prove they were tougher then the Ducks, when in reality it didn't really matter. If they would have just played their game they would have killed the ducks, and walked away with far fewer injuries and the same two points.

It is all a distraction, and not a very good one.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Ratbastrd

[skacore 2]

Sorry to drivel on, but the more I think about this, the stronger I feel about it.

Did you see last nights game between the Sharks/Ducks? I admit I was really pumped to see Shelley/Parros go at it. First period, just like a bad "B" movie, out skate the two warriors, no plot just gratuitous violence "Hey" "you talking to me" "yea" "your a *****" "oh yea" "yea"...

So they beat the s*** out of each other for a minute, essentially a draw. Then they skate off, and I am sitting there thinking what the hell was that all about? In the end it had absolutely no bearing on the game. The two teams still ran at each other all night long.

The rest of the game was a f'ing snooze fest, completely worthless. One of the most boring games I have ever watched. No flow, chippy, lots of bodies flying and yet utterly useless from a hockey entertainment perspective.

The Sharks won 2-0 but could have easily won 6-0. They were far too interested in trying to prove they were tougher then the Ducks, when in reality it didn't really matter. If they would have just played their game they would have killed the ducks, and walked away with far fewer injuries and the same two points.

It is all a distraction, and not a very good one.

Yeah I watched the entire game. If there was any question about it, I think this just indicates the type of hockey we both find entertaining, I loved that game last night. I love old time, physical hockey. You probably prefer the more European brand of game the Red Wings offer, at times I do too.

Parros vs. Shelley was a scripted fight. It was heavyweight vs. heavyweight, it's been a part of hockey forever. An early fight in the game, your guy wins, your team is fired up. Their guy wins, their team is fired up. It's a solid draw like last night? Both teams are fired up and the fans are fired up. It sets the tone for the game and it's entertaining, this is an entertainment business, without fans there isn't an NHL.

Sharks won 2-0 like you said, could have maybe won 6-0 if they turned a cheek to the Ducks physical presence and looked the other way, could have. But let's face it both teams are making the playoffs, if they meet in the 2nd round this year what is going to matter more, the 4 extra goals or the fact that they stood together as a team and stood up for each other, and built a strong team bond? When guys like Blake, Niedermayer, Pronger, and Getzlaf get involved in mini-brawls at the end of a game, that is a good thing! It shows emotion!

If you feel the Sharks would be more successful in the long run if they eased up on the physical play and fighting, maybe you should send in an e-mail or something to San Jose's owner and let him know you can do a better job than Todd McLellan. But I don't know if he'll bite man, because they are the best team in the league and also one of the most pro-fighting, and physical teams.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Yeah I watched the entire game. If there was any question about it, I think this just indicates the type of hockey we both find entertaining, I loved that game last night. I love old time, physical hockey. You probably prefer the more European brand of game the Red Wings offer, at times I do too.

Parros vs. Shelley was a scripted fight. It was heavyweight vs. heavyweight, it's been a part of hockey forever. An early fight in the game, your guy wins, your team is fired up. Their guy wins, their team is fired up. It's a solid draw like last night? Both teams are fired up and the fans are fired up. It sets the tone for the game and it's entertaining, this is an entertainment business, without fans there isn't an NHL.

Sharks won 2-0 like you said, could have maybe won 6-0 if they turned a cheek to the Ducks physical presence and looked the other way, could have. But let's face it both teams are making the playoffs, if they meet in the 2nd round this year what is going to matter more, the 4 extra goals or the fact that they stood together as a team and stood up for each other, and built a strong team bond? When guys like Blake, Niedermayer, Pronger, and Getzlaf get involved in mini-brawls at the end of a game, that is a good thing! It shows emotion!

If you feel the Sharks would be more successful in the long run if they eased up on the physical play and fighting, maybe you should send in an e-mail or something to San Jose's owner and let him know you can do a better job than Todd McLellan. But I don't know if he'll bite man, because they are the best team in the league and also one of the most pro-fighting, and physical teams.

Well said sir, well said...

[Guest Shoreline]

I wouldn't necessarily say the Sharks are pro fighting. But make no mistake, if you saw their series with Nashville in the playoffs a couple years ago, and some of their other encounters with teams similar, you sure as hell know they can play the physical game, and even drop the gloves and beat some ass if the opposing team wants to go that route. In the 4 cups our team won in recent memory, we have had these people as well. We often tend to focus on the Russian 5, or Luc, or Hull, or Dats, or Z, but wow have we ever overlooked the physical players who take beatings and give them to make sure those "skill" guys can play their game with far less hassle.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Shoreline

[Spinner 6]

We don't "need" an enforcer, but I figure, why not? It only adds to the game.

[DRWExaminer 0]

I wouldn't necessarily say the Sharks are pro fighting. But make no mistake, if you saw their series with Nashville in the playoffs a couple years ago, and some of their other encounters with teams similar, you sure as hell know they can play the physical game, and even drop the gloves and beat some ass if the opposing team wants to go that route. In the 4 cups our team won in recent memory, we have had these people as well. We often tend to focus on the Russian 5, or Luc, or Hull, or Dats, or Z, but wow have we ever overlooked the physical players who take beatings and give them to make sure those "skill" guys can play their game with far less hassle.

Shoreline,

That is exactly where I was going with this at the start. I'm sure every one of these guys can stand up for themselves when needed, but it's energy wasted by our stars. Within each game it's not a big deal, but over the course of a season ... and you never know, a freak injury could happen when Z is ducking yet another punch or is falling down awkwardly after another push after the whistle, etc... And in the playoffs as the intensity picks up I don't want Z, Pavs, or Hossa etc... wasting any energy with nonsense after the whistles because the other team has no fear of repercussions. McCarty and Downey are very tough players but I don't think anybody mistakes them for a Derek Boogaard (extreme example). Ideally you would like the player to be able to contribute at all ends of the ice but realistically you're sacrificing a fourth line spot for him.

[lets go pavel 2]

Shoreline,

That is exactly where I was going with this at the start. I'm sure every one of these guys can stand up for themselves when needed, but it's energy wasted by our stars. Within each game it's not a big deal, but over the course of a season ... and you never know, a freak injury could happen when Z is ducking yet another punch or is falling down awkwardly after another push after the whistle, etc... And in the playoffs as the intensity picks up I don't want Z, Pavs, or Hossa etc... wasting any energy with nonsense after the whistles because the other team has no fear of repercussions. McCarty and Downey are very tough players but I don't think anybody mistakes them for a Derek Boogaard (extreme example). Ideally you would like the player to be able to contribute at all ends of the ice but realistically you're sacrificing a fourth line spot for him.

Almost all of the physical play you are talking about, and even the "nonsense after the whistle", is a normal part of the game. Having an enforcer is not going to prevent that, anymore than having an enforcer is going to make opposing teams stop checking us. Perhaps it will make teams less likely to cheap-shot our players, but to be honest there are few players that do that, and I'm not sure an enforcer would deter them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having someone on the Wings who can fight. I enjoy a good scrap, I think it brings energy to the game and to the fans, and I like the sense of justice that a good rumble brings when it's in retaliation for some other offense. I'm just not convinced it prevents a whole lot ...

[skacore 2]

I posted this somewhere else but I forget where, anyway I feel this is a good place to vent this frustration.

Last night was the first regular season game against Mike Ribeiro since he two-handed Osgood in the chest in last year's playoffs. Not 1 Red Wing said anything or did anything to Ribeiro all night long, he went untouched. He scored an empty netter and then stayed out during the final minute to kill the game, I literally felt sick. It's been driving me nuts all day and I probably won't even watch the game tonight. Osgood has been in a horrible slump recently. I'm sure he remembers Ribeiro's slash, but apparently no one else did, I'm sure that's real good for his confidence knowing that stunts like that are tolerated without retribution. Unreal, how's your groin, Mac?

[lets go pavel 2]

I posted this somewhere else but I forget where, anyway I feel this is a good place to vent this frustration.

Last night was the first regular season game against Mike Ribeiro since he two-handed Osgood in the chest in last year's playoffs. Not 1 Red Wing said anything or did anything to Ribeiro all night long, he went untouched. He scored an empty netter and then stayed out during the final minute to kill the game, I literally felt sick. It's been driving me nuts all day and I probably won't even watch the game tonight. Osgood has been in a horrible slump recently. I'm sure he remembers Ribeiro's slash, but apparently no one else did, I'm sure that's real good for his confidence knowing that stunts like that are tolerated without retribution. Unreal, how's your groin, Mac?

Ozzie did butt-end him in the face as he was skating by, and the Wings jumped on him right after it happened. I'm pretty sure Ozzie's confidence will be fine, I don't think he's trembling in fear from Mike Ribeiro.

[Inultus 12]

As GST said earlier in the thread, unfortunately the refs aren't doing their job. I don't think we need a "fighter" on the team in the sense that is all he does, but

1) It's nice to have guys that can play AND fight and

2) I'd like to see the refs penalize this after the whistle BS b/c someday one of our guys is really going to get hurt and then we will all be asking for retribution when it could have been avoided if the refs would simply make these roughing calls.

[skacore 2]

Ozzie did butt-end him in the face as he was skating by, and the Wings jumped on him right after it happened. I'm pretty sure Ozzie's confidence will be fine, I don't think he's trembling in fear from Mike Ribeiro.

Osgood could have murdered Ribeiro's first born, a two-hand slash to your starting goalie still isn't tolerable. Yeah, Draper "jumped on him", woo hoo! It's not able fear, it's about knowing your teammates have your back.

[Guest Shoreline]

Osgood could have murdered Ribeiro's first born, a two-hand slash to your starting goalie still isn't tolerable. Yeah, Draper "jumped on him", woo hoo! It's not able fear, it's about knowing your teammates have your back.

Could have just pulled the old Belfour-on-Lapointe trick. Dunno why goalies aren't more chippy in their own defense.

[Lilja 0]

I think this goon thing is alittle bit childish. "you hit me and im gonna git poppa!"

Besides when Godard and Boogard fight each other sometimes it just feels pointless. They wave at each other and get to sit 5. Like its status quo.

But I see where the OT is coming from. I feel that they let the other team take liberties at times. Id like them to be less friendly but still smart and keeping their heads cool.

I actually prefer players who defend THEMSELVES. Within some limits. I prefer a little bit of hugging and waving from Dats.. no matter who wins.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I posted this somewhere else but I forget where, anyway I feel this is a good place to vent this frustration.

Last night was the first regular season game against Mike Ribeiro since he two-handed Osgood in the chest in last year's playoffs. Not 1 Red Wing said anything or did anything to Ribeiro all night long, he went untouched. He scored an empty netter and then stayed out during the final minute to kill the game, I literally felt sick. It's been driving me nuts all day and I probably won't even watch the game tonight. Osgood has been in a horrible slump recently. I'm sure he remembers Ribeiro's slash, but apparently no one else did, I'm sure that's real good for his confidence knowing that stunts like that are tolerated without retribution. Unreal, how's your groin, Mac?

I wouldn't be surprised if nobody was really thinking about the whole Ribeiro/Osgood incident during the game and if it's more/less "in the past" to them now. Not enough of a serious incident to lose sleep over or to seek "retribution" months and months down the road I think. No injuries happened. I know this is probably not an answer you want to here, but I think we as fans remember things like these and put more stock into them over the players themselves.

[lets go pavel 2]

Osgood could have murdered Ribeiro's first born, a two-hand slash to your starting goalie still isn't tolerable. Yeah, Draper "jumped on him", woo hoo! It's not able fear, it's about knowing your teammates have your back.

Okay, so Draper jumping on at the time isn't enough ... what did you want to happen last night? One of our guys to take a run at him, cheap shot him maybe? That's not how we play. Or do you think if Downey had been in the lineup he could have squared up and fought Ribeiro? Yeah, that's gonna happen, I'm sure Ribeiro would be glad to fight. Look, I think Ribeiro's a ***** too, but as SWF said, what happened is in the past. The time for dealing with it was when it happened, and if you or I don't like how it was handled back then that's fine, but we're pretty much going to have to get over it.

[sureWhyNot 19]

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate.

One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc.

I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players.

Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played.

These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (28 Games)

Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games)

Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (28 Games)

Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games)

Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (26 Games)

Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (25 Games)

______________________________________

B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games)

D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games)

D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games)

C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games)

J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games)

B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (13 Games)

I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

G. Parros: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 10 FM (26 Games)

Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games)

E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games)

D.Hordichuk: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (25 Games)

C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games)

C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games)

J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games)

K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success.

This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then caliming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparible to the Wings listed above them), then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons", AKA the league leaders in FM's.

Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

Edited December 14, 2008 by sureWhyNot

[lets go pavel 2]

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate.

One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc.

I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players.

Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played.

These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (28 Games)

Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games)

Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (28 Games)

Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games)

Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (26 Games)

Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (25 Games)

______________________________________

B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games)

D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games)

D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games)

C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games)

J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games)

B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (13 Games)

I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

G. Parros: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 10 FM (26 Games)

Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games)

E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games)

D.Hordichuk: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (25 Games)

C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games)

C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games)

J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games)

K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success.

This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then caliming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparible to the Wings listed above them), then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons", AKA the league leaders in FM's.

Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I don't think all guys willing and able to fight are otherwise useless, but points don't tell the whole story either. Many of the guys you jest selected from the Wings are here for their defensive abilities, they aren't counted on to score a lot of points, much like most of the enforcers you listed. The points they do get are icing on the cake. The fact that their point totals are similar doesn't mean they make the same contributions on the ice. How many of those guys play on the PK? How many lead their team in faceoffs? I doubt that most of the enforcers you just named could fill Draper's or Stuart's role on this team. Meech is a backup, and he's played forward a bit of the time, so I'm not sure we've gotten a good idea what his role could be. As for Lebda, Maltby and Kopecky ... I think you could make a pretty decent argument that your enforcers could contribute the same things they do, plus the toughness.

[sureWhyNot 19]

I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I don't think all guys willing and able to fight are otherwise useless, but points don't tell the whole story either. Many of the guys you jest selected from the Wings are here for their defensive abilities, they aren't counted on to score a lot of points, much like most of the enforcers you listed. The points they do get are icing on the cake. The fact that their point totals are similar doesn't mean they make the same contributions on the ice. How many of those guys play on the PK? How many lead their team in faceoffs? I doubt that most of the enforcers you just named could fill Draper's or Stuart's role on this team. Meech is a backup, and he's played forward a bit of the time, so I'm not sure we've gotten a good idea what his role could be. As for Lebda, Maltby and Kopecky ... I think you could make a pretty decent argument that your enforcers could contribute the same things they do, plus the toughness.

Ya I definitely hear what you are saying in regards to Draper and Stuart - both of them are incredibly important, and are critical when it comes to things like face offs, which you mentioned above (my personal opinion is that faceoffs is the most important statistic that people don't focus on).

The purpose of my post wasn't too say we should have guy X with X amount of FM instead of Red Wings player A, B, C. It was too curb, or at least attempt to curve, the correlation so many ppl have on this board that enforcers=goons=worthless. That simply isn't the case.

To be completely honest there really isn't any "goons" in the league any more. I mean go back and look at the broad street bullies, or guys like like "Missing" Link Gaetz -- those are "goons". Guys like Boogard and Godard are def. pure enforcers in the sense that they are pretty one dimensional, but they are far from "goons".

[Guest E_S_A_D]

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate.

One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc.

I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players.

Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played.

These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (28 Games)

Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games)

Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (28 Games)

Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games)

Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (26 Games)

Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (25 Games)

______________________________________

B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games)

D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games)

D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games)

C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games)

J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games)

B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (13 Games)

I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

G. Parros: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 10 FM (26 Games)

Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games)

E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games)

D.Hordichuk: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (25 Games)

C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games)

C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games)

J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games)

K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games)

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Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success.

This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then caliming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparible to the Wings listed above them), then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons", AKA the league leaders in FM's.

Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

Bob Prob 1987-88 Detroit Red Wings Statistics

NHL 74games

29 goals

33 assists

62 points

398 penalty minutes

[skacore 2]

Here's a nice article about the effect Jody Shelley has had on the San Jose Sharks

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/92980-j...-sharks-rolling

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Here's a nice article about the effect Jody Shelley has had on the San Jose Sharks

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/92980-j...-sharks-rolling

Haha, I just made a thread on that a while ago Ska...

I was brave to venture to this board from hf wasn't I?